The name Clemence is an alternative spelling for Clements. Spelling wasn't really consistent until the early 1900s when the Oxford dictionary became relatively well distributed. Up to then spelling was phonetic and in the local accent. And the earlier the date, the more that statement is true. Thus it is a very reasonable hypothesis that Clemence and Clements are the same person. Some where I have a copy of a will where my surname is spelt three different ways in the same will. Wishing you every success in your researches Giles Colchester, Researching COLCHESTER family, any spelling, any time, any place And PACKARD in Suffolk Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:15:52 +1000 From: Paula Hadgraft <[email protected]> Subject: [SFK-UK] Ann Clements b. 1760 Wetheringsett - help needed please To: [email protected] <snip> I am hoping that this Ann Clements could be the same Ann Clemence b. c1759 that married my ancestor John Hadgraft on 25 Jun 1786 in St. Mary at Quay, Ipswich. <snip> Paula Hadgraft

Hallo listers Think I might have found my Harold victors death in 1948 aged 52 which gives a birthdate of 1896 though record shows 1897 or thereabouts. He is just plain Harold Regards G Crawford PS. Have found Marshall and rose deaths both in Ipswich. Marshall in 1935 aged 74 Rose aged 62 in 1932.

Hello all, It's been along time since I was last on the list, must be at least 9 years I think. So hello to all of the old and new listers. I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me with a look-up in the Wetheringsett cum Brockford PR's? I am looking for a baptism of: Anne Clements, dau of Henry & Anne, supposedly baptised 28 Feb 1760 (could also be listed as Anne Holmes I guess as she appears to be illegitimate) and also the marriage of: Henry Clements & Ann Holmes in 1766 at Wetheringsett? (note this year was taken from another researchers information so could be incorrect) There were supposedly 2 other children born before they married, Henry & Sarah both born 1763 in Wetheringsett, which seems kind of strange to me. I have checked the Suffolk burial index for Wetheringsett and Debenham which is where the family is listed, but there is only one burial for an Ann and that was in 1824. So it doesn't look like Henry was previously married before Ann Holmes. I have the Bosmere & Claydon Baptism and Marriages Indexes for 1754-1812 and both have been checked, just to make sure the baptism and marriage weren't there. I am hoping that this Ann Clements could be the same Ann Clemence b. c1759 that married my ancestor John Hadgraft on 25 Jun 1786 in St. Mary at Quay, Ipswich. I also have the Ipswich Baptism index for 1754-1812 and have checked this also, but there is no baptism there for any Ann Clements that would fit. If anyone can help me solve this that would be wonderful. Thank you and take care, Paula Hadgraft

Hallo all listers Many many thanks for all replies to my question on the above . As ever listers are so ready to help and assist . I have learnt some thing new in my quest for this line of inquiry. Regards from a grateful G P Crawford Sent from my iPod

South Metropolitan School Industrial School was built in 1851-3 "They are for the maintenance, education, and industrial training of the pauper children appertaining to any particular parish or union of parishes, in a mode whereby it is deemed that much moral, physical, and economical advantage will be obtained by bringing the children together in an out of-town locality, and under a special discipline, instead of rearing them within the confined walls of an ordinary workhouse, where the means of suitable education are limited and imperfect, and where also the demoralising influences and associations are very great." part quote from a newspaper of the time (so it must be true) Illustrated London News. Could be they changed the admission standards later, after all greatgreatuncle Arthur had not much chance to develop a life of crime before he became an orphan at 3 years old. Philip Maddocks ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [SFK-UK] In Reply To: 1911 census > Hallo > Many thanks for that Harold sounds as if he was a tear away might have to > check prison records as well if he didn't manage to change his ways. > > This does tie in with Marshall who was in trouble with the law when > younger. > > G P Crawford > > Sent from my iPod > > On 4 Sep 2012, at 08:29, "David Scott" <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> In England. the 1857 Industrial Schools Act was intended to solve >> problems of juvenile delinquency. , by removing poor and neglected >> children from their home environment to a boarding school. . The Act >> allowed magistrates. to send disorderly ochildren to a residential >> industrial school. An 1876 Act led to non-residential day schools of a >> similar kind. >> David Scott. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] >> Sent On: 04/09/2012 06:47 >> Sent To: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] >> Subject: [SFK-UK] 1911 census >> >> Hallo listers >> >> I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my >> grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London >> evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a >> son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another >> separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his >> birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. >> Any ideas as to what went on? >> What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I >> cant find a trace of in any record after that. >> >> Regards >> >> G P Crawford >> >> Sent from my iPod >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5246 - Release Date: 09/03/12 >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hallo Many thanks for that Harold sounds as if he was a tear away might have to check prison records as well if he didn't manage to change his ways. This does tie in with Marshall who was in trouble with the law when younger. G P Crawford Sent from my iPod On 4 Sep 2012, at 08:29, "David Scott" <[email protected]> wrote: > In England. the 1857 Industrial Schools Act was intended to solve problems of juvenile delinquency. , by removing poor and neglected children from their home environment to a boarding school. . The Act allowed magistrates. to send disorderly ochildren to a residential industrial school. An 1876 Act led to non-residential day schools of a similar kind. > David Scott. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] > Sent On: 04/09/2012 06:47 > Sent To: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] > Subject: [SFK-UK] 1911 census > > Hallo listers > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. > Any ideas as to what went on? > What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. > > Regards > > G P Crawford > > Sent from my iPod > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5246 - Release Date: 09/03/12 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 2012/09/04 17:48, [email protected] wrote: > As Carol says, there are many examples of people being enumeraed twice in the censuses. > It usually happened because the householder didn't understand the instructions (remember > we are talking about an age in which many people were still illiterate or only semi-literate). > The householder might put down a child who normally lived at home but at the time was > away, not realising he shouldn't have done. And I have several examples where the householder listed the children who were no longer alive. Makes checking against the BMD index a lot easier :-) Conversely, there are families where the numbers of children that were born and died don't yet correlate with the BMD index. I'm now forced into looking for several GOULD/GOLD/GOOLD relatives from 1860-1880 that I previously knew nothing about but which are implied from the number of children born/living/died in 1911. Of course! This pre-supposes that the parents could remember the correct numbers. -- Regards, Mike Fry Johannesburg

My greatgrandfather's siblings were sent to the School in Epsom after they were orphaned in 1858. I would say that it was a better option than the workhouse as at least one of the boys learned a trade of bootmaking. I would be interested in the answer to the second part of your question as one of the boys disappeared also. We assumed that either he was adopted or that he joined the armed forces and became a nameless statistic. Philip Maddocks ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 6:47 AM Subject: [SFK-UK] 1911 census > Hallo listers > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my > grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London > evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a > son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another > separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his > birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. > Any ideas as to what went on? > What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I > cant find a trace of in any record after that. > > Regards > > G P Crawford > > Sent from my iPod > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

From: Carol Bradford <[email protected]> Date sent: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:59:28 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SFK-UK] 1911 census Send reply to: [email protected] > Hello G P Crawford, > I have people enumerated twice in censuses in the USA and the UK > across the decades. I know that in our most recent census, I wrote > in the margin that my older son was out of the country because I > wanted future genealogists to be able to put the pieces together. > Not that the computer will take note, but the forms were scanned and > will be available in 72 years. > Have you looked at FreeBMD for later events with Rose and Harold > Victor? > Carol B. > > > > Hallo listers > > > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my > grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell > London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee > goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so > good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school > east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry > it was given as ham. > > Any ideas as to what went on? > > What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then > on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. > > > > Regards > > > > G P Crawford > > To add to my previous message, I suggest you look at the 1901 census which shows Harold V Crawford, son of Marshall and Rose Crawford, living at Victoria Street, Ipswich, and both Harold and his father as having been born at Ipswich. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: Carol Bradford <[email protected]> > Hello G P Crawford, > I have people enumerated twice in censuses in the USA and the UK > across the decades. I know that in our most recent census, I wrote > in the margin that my older son was out of the country because I > wanted future genealogists to be able to put the pieces together. > Not that the computer will take note, but the forms were scanned and > will be available in 72 years. > Have you looked at FreeBMD for later events with Rose and Harold > Victor? > Carol B. > > > > Hallo listers > > > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my > grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell > London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee > goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so > good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school > east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry > it was given as ham. > > Any ideas as to what went on? > > What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then > on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. > > > > Regards > > > > G P Crawford < < As Carol says, there are many examples of people being enumeraed twice in the censuses. It usually happened because the householder didn't understand the instructions (remember we are talking about an age in which many people were still illiterate or only semi-literate). The householder might put down a child who normally lived at home but at the time was away, not realising he shouldn't have done. An industrial school was a kind of early Borstal or approved school to try and prevent difficult children from bad homes from getting into trouble. Google them and you should find lots about them. The industrial school entry for 1911 says Harold Victor Crawford was born at "London or Ipswich" and FreeBMD has only one entry that fits - for Harold Victor Crawford born at Ipswich registration district in the Dec quarter of 1897 (vol 4a page 913). In the entry where he is with his parents it gives his birth place as Peckham - that cannot possibly be correct unless the lad didn't know himself where he was born (always possible). Marshall Crawford, the father, is shown as being born at Ipswich. Have you checked emigration and shipping lists in case he went abroad? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hello G P Crawford, I have people enumerated twice in censuses in the USA and the UK across the decades. I know that in our most recent census, I wrote in the margin that my older son was out of the country because I wanted future genealogists to be able to put the pieces together. Not that the computer will take note, but the forms were scanned and will be available in 72 years. Have you looked at FreeBMD for later events with Rose and Harold Victor? Carol B. > Hallo listers > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. > Any ideas as to what went on? > What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. > > Regards > > G P Crawford >

Hi Graham The 1911 schedule is in the hand of the householder or whoever he coerced into doing it , as Marshall signed it in the same hand I would say he filled it in If you check the writing it looks to me as if Marshall has entered Harold Victor CRAWFORD son age 13 and left the rest blank, perhaps misunderstanding the instructions and Harold was not actually at home on census night The words school and place of birth Peckham appear to be in a lighter, different hand, perhaps the enumerators who would also have added the word Worker for Marshall I have come across several 1911 schedules where the parents have entered all their children, even those who had died before the census, they simply misunderstood the rules for filling it in and the enumerator had not noticed (as they were not transcribed they would not have examined them as much as if they had) For Industrial Schools see http://www.hiddenlives.org.uk/articles/raggedschool.html You will see there were four categories under which a boy or girl could be placed in one, the fourth seems to be the one that may fit your lad Any child under the age of fourteen whose parents declare him to be beyond their control.(5) Like you I cannot find a positive sighting after 1911 although he could have passed away as just plain Harold CRAWFORD of which there are several Or he could have changed his name completely Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04/09/2012 06:47, [email protected] wrote: > Hallo listers > > I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my > grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell > London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee > goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so > good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school > east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry > it was given as ham. Any ideas as to what went on? What is an > industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I cant find > a trace of in any record after that. > > Regards > > G P Crawford

In England. the 1857 Industrial Schools Act was intended to solve problems of juvenile delinquency. , by removing poor and neglected children from their home environment to a boarding school. . The Act allowed magistrates. to send disorderly children to a residential industrial school. An 1876 Act led to non-residential day schools of a similar kind. David Scott. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] Sent On: 04/09/2012 06:47 Sent To: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] Subject: [SFK-UK] 1911 census Hallo listers I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. Any ideas as to what went on? What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. Regards G P Crawford Sent from my iPod ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2437/5246 - Release Date: 09/03/12

Hallo listers I have a bombshell in following a younger sibling ,Marshall, of my grandfather I found him on the above census living in Camberwell London evidently a tram driver. He is still married to Rose nee goldbold with a son Harold victor 13 years old at school. So far so good then another separate entry for Harold in an industrial school east ham London his birth place was right whereas in the other entry it was given as ham. Any ideas as to what went on? What is an industrial school and why has he disappeared from then on I cant find a trace of in any record after that. Regards G P Crawford Sent from my iPod

Hello Ken, From my files father George Copping died in 1885 at Ipswich and was buried in Claydon. George was one of the many descendants of John Copping m. 1710 at Coddenham to Elizabeth Bromeley. Laura Kate Copping b. 1878 was likely the lastborn child and she married in 1933 at Washbrook and she died in 1976 making her 98! My files also show husband George Rumsey was born in 1892. >Your assumption that we are descended from George COPPING and Maria >CHURCH is correct and I have an interesting article on George's >death and some information on Maria (more commonly known as Ann), >who went to New York with 3 of her daughters in the early 1900's. >Ann-Marie Copping >([email protected]) Ann-Marie Copping would have been my source. There is also a site online with various COPPING events and lineages which I assume have been submitted by members. > ><http://copping.info/>Our Family <http://copping.info/>Genealogy Pages > > > >copping.info/ Hoping this helps and you are able to reach Ann-Marie. Lois >Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 09:11:20 +0100 >From: "K Finch" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [SFK-UK] COPPING genealogy and Roy Copping > > > >George Robert Rumsey marries a Laura Kate Copping in Washbrook Suffolk on 19 >April 1933. > > >From the MI's for Washbrook she seems to have been born c1878 in > Claydon the >bmd entry for her death gives a date of 19/2/1878 which on the 1881 census >show her as the daughter of George and Ann Copping. > >55 seems very old for a first marriage and I cannot trace her on the 1911 >census, can you throw any light on this lady. > >George Rumsey is a distant cousin > >Ken >

I have a John Tillinghast/Tyllinghurst who married a Mary MANNING in 1648 at Cookley Suffolk (Boyd's Marriage Index 1538-1840 SOG).  He was a minister and 5th Monarchist at the time. I am trying to learn if this John Tillinghast is my ancestor.  Does anyone on the list have any MANNING information of families in Suffolk or Norfolk who might have this Mary in their family?...or any MANNING who is a minister in Cookley etc.? I am interested to know if there is anything in the documentation of this marriage that would indicate their age or if John was a minister and from where? Is there a Suffolk site that has any of the original images of marriages etc., on-line? Any information or direction you can give me will be most appreciated. Donna TILLINGHAST Casey Michigan, USA   The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it will change; the realist adjusts the sails.

Alec I am not researching this name but William appears to be a lodger at the Fox Inn, Hollesley in the 1851 census. There is also a burial of a William Mannall age 86 at St John, Woodbridge on 5th Jan 1863. I have not been able to trace the registration of this death. Brian -----Original Message----- From: alec burwood Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 12:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [SFK-UK] MANNELL OR MANNEL Anyone researching William and Rachel Mannell who lived at Shingle Street in 1841 at the Lifeboat Inn. Rachel died and is buried at Sutton. What happened to William? has anyone details of any brothers and sisters of William. Any help appreciated Alec Burwood ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anyone researching William and Rachel Mannell who lived at Shingle Street in 1841 at the Lifeboat Inn. Rachel died and is buried at Sutton. What happened to William? has anyone details of any brothers and sisters of William. Any help appreciated   Alec Burwood

From The York Herald ( York, England ), Saturday, July 13, 1805; Issue 787.  DEATH. On Tuesday week an inquisition was taken at Waldringfield, in Suffolk, on view of the body of James CALDER , Esq., late paymaster of the 21st regiment of light dragoons, who was drowned in Woodbridge river on Tuesday the 25th ult. by a sail-boat being upset and sunk.  Jurors' verdict accidental death.  And on Wednesday evening the remains of Captain CALDER were interred at Woodbridge with military honours, attended by the whole of the 21st light dragoons, and the officers of the artillery belonging to the garrison. The volunteers belonging to that place were drawn up at the end of the town, on each side of the road, recumbent on their inverted pieces for the melancholy procession to pass through, and fell in the rear.  The concourse of people, which the much lamented catastrophe, the respect in which Captain CALDER was held, and the impressive solemnity of an officer's funeral, had drawn together, was very great.Captain CALDER was extremely beloved by all his acquaintance. He was a native of Scotland, and originally educated for the church. He was only 32 years of age: had served in the West Indies and attained the rank of Captain before he joined the 21st light dragoons as paymaster. He married Miss STRICKLAND , daughter of Sir George STRICKLAND , of  Boynton Hall, in this county, whom he has left with three children, to lament his fate.  Her grief is not to be described.

George Robert Rumsey marries a Laura Kate Copping in Washbrook Suffolk on 19 April 1933. >From the MI's for Washbrook she seems to have been born c1878 in Claydon the bmd entry for her death gives a date of 19/2/1878 which on the 1881 census show her as the daughter of George and Ann Copping. 55 seems very old for a first marriage and I cannot trace her on the 1911 census, can you throw any light on this lady. George Rumsey is a distant cousin Ken --------------------------------------------------