Hi Thank you all, this as been very helpful, but it seems strange that part of the same cemetery of Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent had parts of consecrated ground and an other part unconsecrated. Denise ________________________________ From: Dawn Webb <dawnwebb@optusnet.com.au> To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013, 19:58 Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Public Graves Certain people years back could not be buried in consecrated ground -= these included illegitimate children and suicides. People who were deemed to hve committed a grave crime in other worlds. Hence so many autopsies came up with the phrase - whilst of unsound mind ... so the person was NOT committing a crime and therefore could be curried in consecrated ground. You may find burials OUTSIDE the church yard for that reason..in the days when the church had burials round it. Here, it is not common as by the 1860s I think there were all public land cemeteries rather than round churchyards though in the very first settlements in Australia, you may well find graves round a church. Consecrated meant - set aside for God - things these days may be consecrated to the Lord's service for example - say, missionaries, or particular items "furniture" - of the church - such items may include the chalice, font etc etc. And I really think it does not have much to do with C of E or not! It is related to sanctity, saints, all those sorts of words come ultimately from the same Latin (and Greek) roots. Dawn (Melbourne Australia) -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Bruce Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 11:29 PM To: 'Denise'; staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Public Graves It may be useful to read the FAQ page of the Cemetery Research Group of York University. (No, I didn't realise there was one either...) http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm Specifically at http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm#cost it says: "In England, people do not 'buy' graves. Two options are available. In the case of an 'unpurchased' or 'public' grave, interment takes place in a grave owned by the local authority. A grave may contain one or coffins of unrelated individuals, since the local authority decides how the plot is to be used. A second option is the purchase of a burial right, for a particular grave. These graves are called 'private' or 'purchased' graves. The owner of the burial right retains the right to decide who is buried in a given plot. " It seems to me therefore that "Pauper's Grave" is a (probably unofficial?) term for a "Public Grave". Re "the difference between consecrated and unconsecrated ground" - at the risk of being thought unhelpful, one lot is consecrated, the other isn't. At http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm#same this quote may be useful: "Churchyards are consecrated tracts of land subject to Church or Canon law. ... Cemeteries may contain consecrated sections, which are also subject to Church law. However, for the most part cemeteries are managed under civic legislation. " Perhaps more useful questions are: - Which Church consecrated the ground in a cemetery referred to as "consecrated"? My belief is that "consecrated" in this context means consecrated by the Church of England. - What's the difference in use between "consecrated" and "unconsecrated"? That's where I'm reduced to guessing... I believe that consecrated ground would be used only by the Church of England (CofE) so that the most obvious reason for being buried in unconsecrated is that the person was not CofE. But where CofE cremations would end up, or in what other circumstances a CofE person might end up in non-CofE ground, I don't really know. Adrian B ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ****************************** PLEASE keep your Anti-Virus and Anti-Malware software up to date. BEWARE of messages making it onto the List with a single URL. NEVER follow the link. 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<<snipped>> Consecrated meant - set aside for God .... And I really think it does not have much to do with C of E or not! <<snipped>> While 'consecrated' as a word certainly applies to all religions, in THIS context (land within public cemeteries), it is pretty clear that it refers to land consecrated to the Church of England, which is, after all, even now the established religion of England. <<snipped>> it seems strange that part of the same cemetery of Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent had parts of consecrated ground and an other part unconsecrated. <<snipped>> Not really. Assuming I haven't got things totally wrong, the consecrated parts were dedicated to CofE use, the unconsecrated parts to other denominations (other religions, even). If the whole of the cemetery were consecrated to the CofE, then CofE rules would apply to all burials - in particular, non-conformists would have had to have been buried in a CofE ceremony. The bad feeling that this generated (because originally, CofE graveyards were usually the only place you could be buried) was one reason that led to municipal cemeteries with non-denominational (i.e. unconsecrated) areas, where non-conformists could have burials according to their own preferred services. I can't remember the differences but I think hymn singing at the graveside was one - a tolerant CofE priest would conduct a burial of a Methodist in a CofE churchyard as a CofE service (he had to - that was Canon Law) and then slip away, leaving the Methodists to complete the service in their own fashion. Regrettably many CofE priests stood on their dignity and refused to allow the Methodists their customs. Hence their desire for their own areas. The unconsecrated areas in these cemeteries are substantial - they're not just for suicides, etc. In the case of the Potteries, there was a substantial nonconformist population, so the cemetery areas would need to be proportional. Adrian B
Denise ALL the MUNICIPAL Cemeteries have both Consecrated AND Un-Consecrated ground. Remember These are NOT graveyards attached to a Church .......... they are Burial Grounds provided by the Local Authorities and as such are not Legally subject to the requirements of any Church. As far as I am aware Fenton Cemetery for example is the only one in Stoke on Trent which allows Muslim Burials A list of Municipal Cemeteries in Stoke on Trent and their opening dates can be found at the following address on my website. http://www.northstaffsresearch.co.uk/cemsts.htm Regards Bill -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise Sent: 17 February 2013 21:23 To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Public Graves Hi Thank you all, this as been very helpful, but it seems strange that part of the same cemetery of Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent had parts of consecrated ground and an other part unconsecrated. Denise ________________________________ From: Dawn Webb <dawnwebb@optusnet.com.au> To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013, 19:58 Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Public Graves Certain people years back could not be buried in consecrated ground -= these included illegitimate children and suicides. People who were deemed to hve committed a grave crime in other worlds. Hence so many autopsies came up with the phrase - whilst of unsound mind ... so the person was NOT committing a crime and therefore could be curried in consecrated ground. You may find burials OUTSIDE the church yard for that reason..in the days when the church had burials round it. Here, it is not common as by the 1860s I think there were all public land cemeteries rather than round churchyards though in the very first settlements in Australia, you may well find graves round a church. Consecrated meant - set aside for God - things these days may be consecrated to the Lord's service for example - say, missionaries, or particular items "furniture" - of the church - such items may include the chalice, font etc etc. And I really think it does not have much to do with C of E or not! It is related to sanctity, saints, all those sorts of words come ultimately from the same Latin (and Greek) roots. Dawn (Melbourne Australia) -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Bruce Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013 11:29 PM To: 'Denise'; staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Public Graves It may be useful to read the FAQ page of the Cemetery Research Group of York University. (No, I didn't realise there was one either...) http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm Specifically at http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm#cost it says: "In England, people do not 'buy' graves. Two options are available. In the case of an 'unpurchased' or 'public' grave, interment takes place in a grave owned by the local authority. A grave may contain one or coffins of unrelated individuals, since the local authority decides how the plot is to be used. A second option is the purchase of a burial right, for a particular grave. These graves are called 'private' or 'purchased' graves. The owner of the burial right retains the right to decide who is buried in a given plot. " It seems to me therefore that "Pauper's Grave" is a (probably unofficial?) term for a "Public Grave". Re "the difference between consecrated and unconsecrated ground" - at the risk of being thought unhelpful, one lot is consecrated, the other isn't. At http://www.york.ac.uk/chp/crg/crgcontext.htm#same this quote may be useful: "Churchyards are consecrated tracts of land subject to Church or Canon law. ... Cemeteries may contain consecrated sections, which are also subject to Church law. However, for the most part cemeteries are managed under civic legislation. " Perhaps more useful questions are: - Which Church consecrated the ground in a cemetery referred to as "consecrated"? My belief is that "consecrated" in this context means consecrated by the Church of England. - What's the difference in use between "consecrated" and "unconsecrated"? That's where I'm reduced to guessing... I believe that consecrated ground would be used only by the Church of England (CofE) so that the most obvious reason for being buried in unconsecrated is that the person was not CofE. But where CofE cremations would end up, or in what other circumstances a CofE person might end up in non-CofE ground, I don't really know. Adrian B ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ****************************** PLEASE keep your Anti-Virus and Anti-Malware software up to date. BEWARE of messages making it onto the List with a single URL. NEVER follow the link. It's usually from an infected source! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8020 (20130217) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 8020 (20130217) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com/ ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ****************************** PLEASE keep your Anti-Virus and Anti-Malware software up to date. BEWARE of messages making it onto the List with a single URL. NEVER follow the link. It's usually from an infected source! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ****************************** PLEASE keep your Anti-Virus and Anti-Malware software up to date. BEWARE of messages making it onto the List with a single URL. NEVER follow the link. It's usually from an infected source! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message