Horse droppings! On 05/03/2012 10:28, Marilyn L. Arnold wrote: > OK. I'm in the US. This is all new information. Rosefertilizer, I get > (bananas work well) for roses. But .... please elaborate via: THANK YOU. > >> I was also in charge of woodlice killing in greenhouse, half potato in >> upturned flower pot plus hammer, plus green fly killer via the used >> washing >> up water and hand pump, path layer via cinders from the fire, and grate >> blacker. >> >> Brian >

I did not answer some of these questions.. I really do not know the cost of the bath-house - 3d (three pence) maybe? In a time when the average was, or at least to provide the food for the family or what I would consider now large proportions, say 4 or more children - could be as little as about 7 shillings. 12 pence - pennies - to the shilling, 20 shillings to a pound back then. Running water? Have no idea, but I do know that some areas of England did not get it till say the 1950s, even the 60s. Tanks I guess to catch the rainwater, springs, maybe one tap in the yard for a community... In the drought here, many people incliuding me got rainwater tanks - I lived once nt he country and had them - wanted them in suburbia when we came, were told they woere illegal, and we would be prosecuted. Now they give government grants if you get them! In the same country place, we lived for 11 months without electricity. It was too fatr away, about a quarter mile each direction, to be got to us without a transformer. Took that long to arrange others on the subdivision, but actually living there then, to get it, loans from the bank, etc etc. quite do-able - the local laundromat got a work out though - I had three young children, two still in nappies - diapers to the US residents. Disposable were available BUT far too expensive for normal use. Dawn -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn L. Arnold Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 11:06 AM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] LIFE in the 1870-1900s Dawn: Thank you Dawn! for this very interesting perspective you provided (below) on life in this time period. My GGG uncle was said to have worked in a mill by the age of 8 and was so small that he had to stand all day on a stool. His father was killed in an iron mill accident when the child was 6, and his mother was left with 5 young children under 12 to raise alone. She was described in the 1851 Census as a pauper. I know that one of the children at 13 was a servant, not living at home, and another I think was in an orphan asylum (school), but not sure, given the common DAVIES name. My grandmother's cousin stated that the census did not specifically have to state her condition as "pauper" so that indicated (to her) Ann's very desperate condition. I do know that Ann, b. ~ 1815 could not read and write. One daughter was taken to the US by her husband's younger brother and wife and raise as their own, so poor Ann was forced to say goodby to her "Nellie" age 8, not knowing if she would ever see her again, but also knowing that she'd have a better life with them. How tragic. One by one the Uncle George brought over her other children to Pittsburgh, with only her son Samuel (my GGG GF) remaining in Moxley. Thank you for describing the conditions of the loo and the wash house. I guess I just didn't think about it. We so take things for granted these days! Could you describe what you mean by "cooper up?" I can't imagine Ann and family would have had money for a public bath house, but perhaps son Samuel & family (b. 1838) may have (siblings b. 1865-1880 or so). Questions: * How expensive would a trip to a bath house have been, relative to pay for an iron worker might you imagine? * When might running water/indoor facilities common in the Moxley, Wednesbury, Dudley, Bilston area? (Since my GG GF, b. 1865 Moxley; d. 1947 New Hampshire, US used to collect water daily from the well even as an elderly man, I suspect that was the norm for when he was brought up.) Thanks for the description of the house; I suspect my rellies lived in similar, modest homes, as my grandparents visited cousins in the 1960s and described conditions as modest, relative to theirs. I know a couple had shops in the front of their homes. One sold candy ("humbugs!") (1870s) and another bakery good (1960s). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn Webb" <dawnwebb@optusnet.com.au> To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Where is: 160 Catherines Cross Foundry Street -- 1871/ and an 11-year old vintner??? >I think the things you describe Marilyn are about normal for the times - my > grandmother also worked in a mill from a very young age and she was born > 1886; my grandfather, her husband, had to stand at meals with all the 9 or > so other children - Mum and Dad sat - they could only afford two chairs in > the entire house. Grandma slept with her siblings - six on one double > bed - > three top, three tail. Five girls one boy. By the time my grandparents > were growing, they did have a legal entitlement and requirement for > education - perhaps three or five years. G grandma, the generation > earlier, > could not read nor write and she died 1942. Grandma said he mother did > not > have the opportunity to ever learn and that she (grandma - and presumably > her siblings, starting 1881 births) had, like me, gone to school. 1901 > census, Grandma and her younger sister were both mill workers. Only one > who > was not was Olga, aged 10 or maybe JUST 11. (Grandma was third youngest > of > six.) > > Shared toilet - in the back yard of several houses - but we are most > likely > talking terrace houses, possibly front and backs too - small in dimensions > and number of rooms - say one loo for every six or so households, outside > wash=house too, rostered which days you could use it. Bath - either het > the copper up or pay and go to the public bath house if there was one, Sat > nights most likely. > > A newish house my g grandfather lived in with about five opr more siblings > and ?Mum and Dad had three rooms - I have been in it! One main room > downstairs with a tiny kitchen and lobby utility room off the back of it, > through which you went these days to the back yard. Stairs ina > cupboard - > and though I did not go upstairs, maybe then two rooms up. Whether they > have > now made two small bedrooms and a bathroom up there, who knows? But more > likely, one larger - still small to my Australian modern eyes - and a > bathroom. No outside buildings in the small back yard these days. And > they > had bought a few more backyards from the neighbours over the 150 or so > years, so it is now bigger and lovely. 1861 census (or 1871) I think it > was > listed as back to back but the old maps and modern show the "footprint" > has > not changed - so, two families would have lived in these two rooms in > effect > - no access to the "back" either - the whole row of the houses, about 40 > or > more in a long line. Talk about crowded! But then, they did not have much > it seems. Or any expectations of things being better, either, possibly. > They would have walked to work - there was and still is! a mill at the end > of the road, perhaps 100-200 yds away. And many more within walking > distance back then, but gone now. I visited there in 2010. > > Dawn (Melbourne Australia) ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6937 (20120304) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

> My father always 'cleaned' up after the rag and bone man had disappeared > said it was good for his roses ! That was always the son's job in my time as a young lad, we all had a bucket and shovel, and it was your job to be the first son to the rose fertilizer, delivered via coalman, breadman, milkman, rag and boneman, or any other horse. I was also in charge of woodlice killing in greenhouse, half potato in upturned flower pot plus hammer, plus green fly killer via the used washing up water and hand pump, path layer via cinders from the fire, and grate blacker. Brian

Thanks for that Andy - I was down the Black Country Museum one last trip to England (2040) and imagine sitting in a lovely lighted boat with all occ health and safety things going, and vents to let light in and electric lighting all over - well, nothing like the real thing! Next trip I could maybe get to Wakefield - I hope to stay a couple of days at Huddersfield - my daughter and son in law live in London. They are coming "home" for a visit in a couple of weeks from now, to work on their property here. Well, three hours drive away, actually, but a lot closer than London! Dawn (Melbourne Australia) -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andy Micklethwaite Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 10:07 PM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] COAL MINING QUESTIONS At 10:05 04/03/2012, J Roberts wrote: >A colliery is a coal mine. Thanks John, an excellent account, clear and concise. For anyone interested and within travelling distance of Wakefield, Yorkshire the Mining Museum at Caphouse Pit is well worth a visit http://www.ncm.org.uk. I believe Big Pit in South Wales is good too: www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/bigpit/ The Black Country Museum in Dudley also has a colliery http://www.bclm.co.uk/ - but the website says it's closed at present. I guess there are similar experiences in other mining areas in the world but I don't know them. But all of these are pale imitations of what it was really like to work there - modern H&S sees to that. Imagine being an 8 year old kid, in charge of opening and closing a door in the mine (for ventilation purposes) - in the pitch black too - just so that Dad could earn a few more pence. That really happened before the Shaftesbury reforms. Andy. ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6937 (20120304) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6937 (20120304) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6937 (20120304) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

OK. I'm in the US. This is all new information. Rosefertilizer, I get (bananas work well) for roses. But .... please elaborate via: THANK YOU. > I was also in charge of woodlice killing in greenhouse, half potato in > upturned flower pot plus hammer, plus green fly killer via the used > washing > up water and hand pump, path layer via cinders from the fire, and grate > blacker. > > Brian

> Dolly blue bags - we used to get them from the rag and bone man. Another > fixture of my childhood that has long disappeared! Wasn't the rag and bone man the best recycling system known to man ? Brian

Dawn wrote "Then - the whites went into a rinse with blue added - blue bags used to colour the water - I remember them but my American husband had no idea - and then, dripping almost, out onto the line." Dolly blue bags - we used to get them from the rag and bone man. Another fixture of my childhood that has long disappeared! You can still buy dolly blue here in the UK if you know where to look. Angela -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.927 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4249 - Release Date: 03/03/12 19:34:00

> Questions: > * How expensive would a trip to a bath house have been, relative to pay > for > an iron worker might you imagine? > * When might running water/indoor facilities common in the Moxley, > Wednesbury, Dudley, Bilston area? Interesting general link on wages is on www.wirksworth.org.uk/A04VALUE.htm gives guide to wages and money. Not the area, but as a general guide to water supply, 1866 a water works was built and mains water was installed in Swindon and the GWR railway workshops. Also when the railway works and railway cottages were built 1842 they included sewerage system. My grans house built around 1900 had mains water, an outside toilet on mains sewer, and may have had electric light from the start, no sign of old gas lighting. Electric power came in around 1870, though we still had gas street lights in the 1960's, a mate in Stafford lived with his gran, and they had no electric in the late 1960's, so relied on gas lighting.. Farms, and remote houses tended to have petrol generator sets, a number we stayed at on holiday in the 50's all had generators. Brian

Greetings from Hingham. Massachusetts, USA Derek. Thanks for this one. I was able to bring up the death of my third greatgrandfather. It told me what happened and when, only a little different from family story. It was interesting in reading all about the mine in which he worked. Again, thank you, Barbara Sweeney Valente On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 6:12 AM, Derek <derekn@btinternet.com> wrote: > You might find this site useful > > http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/home/index.html > > It has a database of over 140,000 names > > Derek > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not > apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED > MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thinking of these things - sort of normal to me though I have never had to do them, like using a copper - makes me think of food. Fruit and vegetables were seasonal - Mum shopped every day. Peas did not come frozen in packets when I was young! Now, I grow them and other things. But, I have friends in their 60s who do not know what things are in season when - no idea that zucchini = courgettes to the English who use the French name - are a summer vegetable, for instance. Available yes, but at a huge price unless they are almost fit only for the rubbish tin. I presume the same people have no idea as to when which fruit is common, crops, winter veg , etc etc either. It seems common knowledge to me, but apparently not to others. But then, since I started this family history, I found I come from a long line of "ag labs" - agricultural labourers - and even those who were not that, eg mill workers, had a vegetable patch and chopped firewood. I always knew things, same as iu always knew grass was green. But not all have that background it seems. Being poor ehelped of course - they could only afford what was cheap - ie in season. So, I knew from what was on the plate which was when! Dawn

Coal face - where they were working to get at it. It may well have continued on in a seam, but they were only at one point then. Colliery - coal works, coal mine. Cage - a sort of lift I suppose. Elevator to Americans. It was exactly that - a steel cage, wire sides roof and floor. All open! Decks - levels I think, so the lift/cage might be a couple of storeys high - would move people faster if so. The bottom level would go to one level of tunnel the next might go to a different one. The sides were removable I think, slid up and down, so they could get out... Often mines were not lit, they worked by feel. Or, candles, whatever. Bad air would be fairly common. Canaries keeled over before men did - if the canary died the men got out - it was a primitive early warning system. Other times it was explosive bad air - chipping at the rock would produce sparks, or a candle, and up it would all go - another mining disaster. Not uncommon, for sure. Or course, the mine collapsed by itself often enough. More killed of course. Life was cheap in effect. I have been in Old now disused mines (gold ones and coal ones), tourist ones, where the old cages etc are still in use. But, they use electricity these days and pump the water out too. Back then, water was a constant presence and problem. Even if they had the technology to pump it out, it may not have been very effective, may well have been too expensive to an owner who wanted to keep costs down - and as I said, the mine workers lives were cheap - always more to fill the gaps! Of course, it was not always as bad as I paint, but often enough, it was. Dawn -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn L. Arnold Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 10:44 AM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] COAL MINING QUESTIONS Thank you ALL for this very interesting discussion and experiences with coal minig! This has raised some questions and terminology with which I (and perhaps others) am unfamiliar. Can someone help? 1. Brian said .... "we went ...on a school trip, all the way to the coal faces, at a unused face the guide had everybody turn off there helmet lights. I can still remember the total darkness." WOW. ... gave me goosebumps. I'm sure the silence was stunning as well. Question1: What are "coal faces" and "unused coal faces"? The edge of where coal becomes a different type of rock? 2. John. Roberts -- VERY interesting email about coal mining. THANKS! Question2: What is a "colliery?" You worked a cage? What is a "cage?" and you refer to decks as if things were stacked. Coal to be hauled out? 3. Q3: How were the mines lit in the 1800s? Candles? Lanterns? 4. Q4: How often was there "bad air" as described in the story shared by Derek of the personal story of the poor 11-year old girl? And thanks to Derek, Dawn as well for their very graphic descriptions of life ... rather sobering. And, interesting about the ponies. Life certainly wasn't easy, was it? Now this makes me wonder if my GG GF somehow worked in the coal mines w/the ponies and that's how he got the scar on his lip. Interesting ..... hmmmm..... Well, since he was b. 1865 and died before I was born, I guess I'll never really know! (Although 4 of his grandchildren are still living). Thanks again, Marilyn DC ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

The copper was something even my mother used till I was teenaged - so, early 1960s. It was a copper - think of a witches' cauldron - set in brick surrounds. Later models were gas fired, but the one I knew had a little wood fireplace set into it. You heated water in it for bath night. There was no plumbed hot water - probably no plumbed water, period, either. So - heat the copper up - get the fire going. I think kids would once have been bathed in the thing, but goodness you would have to be careful not to boil them! I remember Mum's disappointment when the fire went out, too. She would soak the sheets and other cotton whites in the copper overnight, and then go out early in the morning, well before 7am, to light the fire. Come inside, do a few things, get me off to school - in between whipping out to feed it, etc. the water in the copper boiled - and as it boiled, the water bubbled through the washing. Sort of agitator action and very effective - things came really white! Then you ladled the clothes out with a copper stick into wooden troughs - concrete if you were more modern, say 1940s - and the heat from the boiling water and then the cold you put in, meant you could scrub the things well on the corrugated scrubbing board - in the case of the men's work clothes, with a scrubbing brush too. Things were of tough material but still would have worn out. Into the other trough for first t=rinse. After all the washing had been done, it was time to empty the dirty water in trough oine to fill with clean water for the second rinse. Then - the whites went into a rinse with blue added - blue bags used to colour the water - I remember them but my American husband had no idea - and then, dripping almost, out onto the line. Other washing followed - maybe just into hot water, not boiled, depended on the fabric and colour. Things which needed starching should have been dried then starched but Mum said near enough was good enough and she dunked things , well wrong out, into the starch mix as was. No spin dryer, no washing machine, and Mum got a wringer when I was about five which made her life much easier. Grandma was green with envy, saoid mum was VEERY lucky! The washing was hung on clothes lines between two posts, with a pole in the middle to hoist it up when the clothes were on - called a prop. Sadly the clothes lines could, and did, often break and the clean washing fell into the mud - meaning, it all had to be done again. The remaining hot water from the copper was used for scrubbing the floors, the veranda etc - it was the only hot water that could be used. So - a hard day washing, and then, a hard day housework followed straight on. No wonder wash day tea = evening meal was quick and easy - cold meat, bread and jam - more likely dripping - whatever. The floors were done on hands and knees with lots of elbow grease. Newspapers were spread to keep them clean. No wonder shoes were taken off at the door! That all said, my grandparents had a gas hot water service installed and Mum benefitted from that, so as a child, hot water for the bath came from a tap not the copper. Grandma and Da moved to a little fisherman's cottage - back to no electricity, no hws. They did get a phone on a few years later and electricity too - the doctor said it was essential for them, really ripped into the authorities, so it came on within a week of an emergency that saw virtually crippled Grandma running about 200yd in the winter midnight to get to a phone for urgent help. Would have taken a few years otherwise - straight after WWII in effect. We did not get a phone on till I was perhaps 15... and that was suburbia, Melbourne, Australia. We don't know we are alive these days! Remember, what I have said about the washing was done in a wash-house - but one per house, not communal as a few years before in England. There, rosters existed. For cleaning the communal areas too which of course included the toilet. Bad luck if you had lazy neighbours. Dawn It is colder now today - I lit the firestove and things are toasty. It i=has a "wet back" - ie heats the hot water too. But yes, I have all electric everything mod cons - but the firestove is VERY good. I paid a lot to get it and have it installed - but those who have them, love them. Most tradesmen these days have never heard of things like wet backs, hardly know what a fire stove is. As for a copper!! - my son is a bricklayer - time was, they did one per half day. These days the skill has been lost - Peter said he thinks he could nut it out but it would take a week or so! -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn L. Arnold Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 11:06 AM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] LIFE in the 1870-1900s Dawn: Thank you Dawn! for this very interesting perspective you provided (below) on life in this time period. My GGG uncle was said to have worked in a mill by the age of 8 and was so small that he had to stand all day on a stool. His father was killed in an iron mill accident when the child was 6, and his mother was left with 5 young children under 12 to raise alone. She was described in the 1851 Census as a pauper. I know that one of the children at 13 was a servant, not living at home, and another I think was in an orphan asylum (school), but not sure, given the common DAVIES name. My grandmother's cousin stated that the census did not specifically have to state her condition as "pauper" so that indicated (to her) Ann's very desperate condition. I do know that Ann, b. ~ 1815 could not read and write. One daughter was taken to the US by her husband's younger brother and wife and raise as their own, so poor Ann was forced to say goodby to her "Nellie" age 8, not knowing if she would ever see her again, but also knowing that she'd have a better life with them. How tragic. One by one the Uncle George brought over her other children to Pittsburgh, with only her son Samuel (my GGG GF) remaining in Moxley. Thank you for describing the conditions of the loo and the wash house. I guess I just didn't think about it. We so take things for granted these days! Could you describe what you mean by "cooper up?" I can't imagine Ann and family would have had money for a public bath house, but perhaps son Samuel & family (b. 1838) may have (siblings b. 1865-1880 or so). Questions: * How expensive would a trip to a bath house have been, relative to pay for an iron worker might you imagine? * When might running water/indoor facilities common in the Moxley, Wednesbury, Dudley, Bilston area? (Since my GG GF, b. 1865 Moxley; d. 1947 New Hampshire, US used to collect water daily from the well even as an elderly man, I suspect that was the norm for when he was brought up.) Thanks for the description of the house; I suspect my rellies lived in similar, modest homes, as my grandparents visited cousins in the 1960s and described conditions as modest, relative to theirs. I know a couple had shops in the front of their homes. One sold candy ("humbugs!") (1870s) and another bakery good (1960s). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn Webb" <dawnwebb@optusnet.com.au> To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Where is: 160 Catherines Cross Foundry Street -- 1871/ and an 11-year old vintner??? >I think the things you describe Marilyn are about normal for the times - my > grandmother also worked in a mill from a very young age and she was born > 1886; my grandfather, her husband, had to stand at meals with all the 9 or > so other children - Mum and Dad sat - they could only afford two chairs in > the entire house. Grandma slept with her siblings - six on one double > bed - > three top, three tail. Five girls one boy. By the time my grandparents > were growing, they did have a legal entitlement and requirement for > education - perhaps three or five years. G grandma, the generation > earlier, > could not read nor write and she died 1942. Grandma said he mother did > not > have the opportunity to ever learn and that she (grandma - and presumably > her siblings, starting 1881 births) had, like me, gone to school. 1901 > census, Grandma and her younger sister were both mill workers. Only one > who > was not was Olga, aged 10 or maybe JUST 11. (Grandma was third youngest > of > six.) > > Shared toilet - in the back yard of several houses - but we are most > likely > talking terrace houses, possibly front and backs too - small in dimensions > and number of rooms - say one loo for every six or so households, outside > wash=house too, rostered which days you could use it. Bath - either het > the copper up or pay and go to the public bath house if there was one, Sat > nights most likely. > > A newish house my g grandfather lived in with about five opr more siblings > and ?Mum and Dad had three rooms - I have been in it! One main room > downstairs with a tiny kitchen and lobby utility room off the back of it, > through which you went these days to the back yard. Stairs ina > cupboard - > and though I did not go upstairs, maybe then two rooms up. Whether they > have > now made two small bedrooms and a bathroom up there, who knows? But more > likely, one larger - still small to my Australian modern eyes - and a > bathroom. No outside buildings in the small back yard these days. And > they > had bought a few more backyards from the neighbours over the 150 or so > years, so it is now bigger and lovely. 1861 census (or 1871) I think it > was > listed as back to back but the old maps and modern show the "footprint" > has > not changed - so, two families would have lived in these two rooms in > effect > - no access to the "back" either - the whole row of the houses, about 40 > or > more in a long line. Talk about crowded! But then, they did not have much > it seems. Or any expectations of things being better, either, possibly. > They would have walked to work - there was and still is! a mill at the end > of the road, perhaps 100-200 yds away. And many more within walking > distance back then, but gone now. I visited there in 2010. > > Dawn (Melbourne Australia) ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

Dawn, I've just found your conversation online from Canada, and as an ex-pat from Hanley (1968) I found them absorbing. I remember as a schoolboy, going to Chatterley Whitfield to see how a mine worked. Would it be possible, at your convenience, for you to send me copies of your presentations, going back to the beginning? My address is "tpowell1@shaw.ca" I would be very grateful if yu could do this. I don't want to lose old memories; I try to gain new ones. Thanks for anything you can do! Tony Powell

you just did !! ________________________________ From: Ooooppss <Ooooppss@btinternet.com> To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012, 13:29 Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] COAL MINING QUESTIONS Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! Dawn Webb wrote, Sun, 4 Mar 2012 16:38:01 +1100 > Coal face - where they were working to get at it.  It

Bill Harrison wrote, Thu, 1 Mar 2012 09:30:35 -0000 > Thanks for the image ... > This can now be downloaded from my site ... See also http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=584777.new#new

Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! Dawn Webb wrote, Sun, 4 Mar 2012 16:38:01 +1100 > Coal face - where they were working to get at it. It > may well have continued on in a seam Coal only occurs in seams - geological beds - which vary considerably in thickness, from a few inches to hundreds of feet. The seam is laid down like an eiderdown, and can extend for long distances in both directions. Obviously, depending on the thickness, some seams are not worth excavating. Obviously, you only want to excavate the coal; any rock is expensive to excavate, haul and dispose of. The "room & pillar" method is one where you leave occasional pillars to support the ground while you excavate round them. Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! "Long wall mining" is the modern method, where a chainsaw say a hundred foot long chews out the coal and drops it onto a conveyor belt. Behind this is a row of hydraulic props to hold up the ground above. As the cutter moves forward, so the props are taken down and moved forward. If there is a long delay (such as a long strike) then the ground closes up and the props cannot be removed - and in the extreme, the conveyor and the cutters can be lost, too, buried under hundreds of feet of ground that has already moved, so it's not safe to even try to re-enter. Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! Before such mechanisation, the coal was dug by hand - and in the Victorian era and before, if the seam was thin, then I suspect children did the digging.... They were certainly sometimes employed instead of ponies to haul the wagons. I once had a colleague who had been a mine surveyor in the 1960s - he related how some of the seams were only nine inches thick, and he had to crawl through, dragging his theodolite behind him, and then set it up and do his survey.... > Often mines were not lit, they worked by feel. Or, candles, > whatever. Erm... only before 1815, when "Humphry Davy invented a safety lamp for use in gassy coalmines, allowing deep coal seams to be mined despite the presence of firedamp (methane). This led to some controversy as George Stephenson, working in a colliery near Newcastle, also produced a safety lamp that year. Both men claimed that they were first to come up with this invention. " http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SCdavy.htm Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! > water was a constant presence and problem. This ceased to be a major problem with the development of steam power around 1770, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Mining. Please do NOT re-post this entire message ! Now come forward to the 1980s, and the miners' strike. A large proportion of the miners felt very strongly that, "my father worked down t'pit; my grandfather worked down t'pit; his father worked down t'pit, and by God I'll do all I can to ensure that my sons, too, will follow me down t'pit." Oh, dear; oh, dear.... I wouldn't wish it on ANYbody - particularly my own son. Where was "ambition" when it was needed....

I don't have a lot to add on the details of coal mining but wanted to say, my grandfather Leonard SHERRATT worked in the mines at a very young age in Talke Pitts area. His father, grandfather, brothers and all male relatives going back many, many years were coal miners in Talke area and over to Norton in the Moors, particularly, Brown Edge. Leonard came over to Canada on several trips but his last in 1927 kept him here. He worked the coal mines (along with relatives) of Alberta, Canada. Particularly the Crowsnest past area which has it's own history of horrific coal mining accidents. When he was done in the coal mines he came to Northern Ontario, Canada to mine gold. My father continued the tradition in his youth but went on to become a civil engineer and finally break the mining cycle in our family and stayed above ground. My grandfather Leonard eventually died of silicosis - directly related to his years in the mines. On my grandmother's side her father John MANSELL - started work in the mines around Norton Canes, Staffordshire. He too came to Canada and in 1914 was off shift when the Hillcrest Mine disaster in HIllcrest, Alberta took 189 lives. He did however die in the coal mines in 1937. Several men from Staffordshire lost their lives in the Hillcrest disaster including Charles IRONMONGER (18) and his brother Samuel IRONMONGER (24). I still live in the gold mining town my grandfather worked back in the 30s. With the price of gold as high as it is, our mines are busier than they have been in decades. There is a shortage of skilled labour and while conditions are much, much better than they were 50 years ago we continue to lose lives in the mines every year. So far, in 2012 four men have lost their lives. Wendy SHERRATT Hogan Kirkland Lake on the Mile of Gold Ontario, Canada

Maralyn, if you put "Glossary of Coal Mining Terms' into Google you will get several sites that will help you. You may wish to limit your selection to UK Sites. John Bennett On 4 Mar 2012, at 05:38, Dawn Webb wrote: > Coal face - where they were working to get at it. It may well have > continued on in a seam, but they were only at one point then. > > Colliery - coal works, coal mine. Cage - a sort of lift I suppose. Elevator > to Americans. It was exactly that - a steel cage, wire sides roof and > floor. All open! Decks - levels I think, so the lift/cage might be a > couple of storeys high - would move people faster if so. The bottom level > would go to one level of tunnel the next might go to a different one. The > sides were removable I think, slid up and down, so they could get out... > > Often mines were not lit, they worked by feel. Or, candles, whatever. > > > Bad air would be fairly common. Canaries keeled over before men did - if > the canary died the men got out - it was a primitive early warning system. > Other times it was explosive bad air - chipping at the rock would produce > sparks, or a candle, and up it would all go - another mining disaster. Not > uncommon, for sure. Or course, the mine collapsed by itself often enough. > More killed of course. > > Life was cheap in effect. > > I have been in Old now disused mines (gold ones and coal ones), tourist > ones, where the old cages etc are still in use. But, they use electricity > these days and pump the water out too. Back then, water was a constant > presence and problem. Even if they had the technology to pump it out, it > may not have been very effective, may well have been too expensive to an > owner who wanted to keep costs down - and as I said, the mine workers lives > were cheap - always more to fill the gaps! Of course, it was not always as > bad as I paint, but often enough, it was. > > Dawn > > -----Original Message----- > From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marilyn L. Arnold > Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 10:44 AM > To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com > Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] COAL MINING QUESTIONS > > Thank you ALL for this very interesting discussion and experiences with coal > > minig! This has raised some questions and terminology with which I (and > perhaps others) am unfamiliar. Can someone help? > > 1. Brian said .... "we went ...on a school trip, all the way to the coal > faces, at a unused face the guide had everybody turn off there helmet > lights. I can still remember the total darkness." WOW. ... gave me > goosebumps. I'm sure the silence was stunning as well. > > Question1: What are "coal faces" and "unused coal faces"? The edge of > where coal becomes a different type of rock? > > 2. John. Roberts -- VERY interesting email about coal mining. THANKS! > > Question2: What is a "colliery?" You worked a cage? What is a "cage?" and > > you refer to decks as if things were stacked. Coal to be hauled out? > > 3. Q3: How were the mines lit in the 1800s? Candles? Lanterns? > > 4. Q4: How often was there "bad air" as described in the story shared by > > Derek of the personal story of the poor 11-year old girl? > > And thanks to Derek, Dawn as well for their very graphic descriptions of > life ... rather sobering. And, interesting about the ponies. Life > certainly wasn't easy, was it? > > Now this makes me wonder if my GG GF somehow worked in the coal mines w/the > > ponies and that's how he got the scar on his lip. Interesting ..... > hmmmm..... Well, since he was b. 1865 and died before I was born, I guess > I'll never really know! (Although 4 of his grandchildren are still living). > > Thanks again, > Marilyn > DC > >

But then, it was normal. You cannot try to see past times in the light of what we know and think now. Consider the convicts to Australia, the treatment of aboriginals, and the list goes on. Even t =he "stealing" of children of single mothers up to the 1970s... I am inclined to think that the way of such children being brought up by neighbourse, others in the family, even by grandparents, was perhaps more common and kinder back in the 1800s and early 1900s kinder. Dawn (Melbourne Australia) -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Victor Oddy Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 10:38 AM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Pit Ponies I find all of this appalling Stephen Western Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Roberts" <roberts627@btinternet.com> To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:44 AM Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Pit Ponies > Having worked all my life in Coal Mining in Staffordshire can confirm > that > there were stables underground. At the colliery I worked at the ponies > were > always well kept and the miners would often take special treats for the > ponies as they always thought very highly of these animals. > They were used to haul both full and empty tubs around the Pit Bottom > area. > The only time they ever came to the surface was for the traditional two > week > Miners Holiday. At the colliery where I worked the cage was rather small. > It > had three decks but only the top deck was sufficiently high to enable one > pony at a time to enter the cage. This deck was also very small in width > and > depth being designed for six men standing two abreast and three deep. When > the ponies were loaded into the cage they had to open a hatch at the roof > of > the top deck and the pony would be coaxed into this very limited space, > made > to sit down with its head through the open hatch. A very tricky > operation. > Because the lighting underground was negligible, they had to wear > "blinkers" > to protect their eyes whilst on the surface. It was a real treat to see > them > making the most of very limited freedom and to watch them gambol about was > a > great sight to experience. After the two week break the procedure would > have > to be gone through again to get the ponies back into the mine. Despite all > this, they were always well cared for. The colliery blacksmith was > required > to go underground to shoe the ponies when necessary. Inspections were made > at regular intervals by a Veterinary Surgeon and also the Mines > Inspectorate. > Hope this is of interest. > John Roberts > In the Staffordshire Potteries Where the Mugs Come From > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com

It is, thank you. Not sure if the conditions in the 180s and earlier would have been as good as in the 1950s though. Still, pit ponies I think were always valued. The mine would have not operated without them, is my understanding. Dawn -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J Roberts Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2012 9:45 AM To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Pit Ponies Having worked all my life in Coal Mining in Staffordshire can confirm that there were stables underground. At the colliery I worked at the ponies were always well kept and the miners would often take special treats for the ponies as they always thought very highly of these animals. They were used to haul both full and empty tubs around the Pit Bottom area. The only time they ever came to the surface was for the traditional two week Miners Holiday. At the colliery where I worked the cage was rather small. It had three decks but only the top deck was sufficiently high to enable one pony at a time to enter the cage. This deck was also very small in width and depth being designed for six men standing two abreast and three deep. When the ponies were loaded into the cage they had to open a hatch at the roof of the top deck and the pony would be coaxed into this very limited space, made to sit down with its head through the open hatch. A very tricky operation. Because the lighting underground was negligible, they had to wear "blinkers" to protect their eyes whilst on the surface. It was a real treat to see them making the most of very limited freedom and to watch them gambol about was a great sight to experience. After the two week break the procedure would have to be gone through again to get the ponies back into the mine. Despite all this, they were always well cared for. The colliery blacksmith was required to go underground to shoe the ponies when necessary. Inspections were made at regular intervals by a Veterinary Surgeon and also the Mines Inspectorate. Hope this is of interest. John Roberts In the Staffordshire Potteries Where the Mugs Come From -------------------------------------------------- From: "brian" <brian@kddpowercentre.com> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 9:41 PM To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] 1881 -- The Iron Works, Moxley/Wednesfield > They had stables underground for the pit ponies, but they came up > periodically, may have been annually ( from memory, but were going back to > the 50's ) for a break. They had farms for them, and retirement, they were > looked after at least in years, they were still going in the 50's / 60's. > > In the 1950's - 1980's there were around 100 pits, still working, > Essington, > Cannock, Hednesford, Rugeley, Cannock Chase, Walsall Wood, Brownhills > area. > > We went down Hednesford number 5 pit on a school trip, all the way to the > coal faces, at a unused face the guide had everybody turn off there helmet > lights, I can still remember the total darkness. > > Brian > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not > apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED > MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4848 - Release Date: 03/03/12 > ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6935 (20120303) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com