Linda The lists are on Steve Birk's site (potteries.org) it can be found at .... http://www.thepotteries.org/streets/renaming.htm The BMSGH have a north Staffs branch who meet on the 1st Monday in the month except when it's a Bank Holiday then it's the 2nd Monday. Details of the branch, map etc can be found on their website at .... http://www.bmsgh.org/branches/northstaffs/index.html NB - If you are intending to do any research at any of the Archives in the area then you MUST make an appointment before you attend. Check out the link below ... http://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/homepage.aspx If you have any further questions just get back .... see below for details Regards Bill ======================================================================== * This Mail was sent WITHOUT attachments* Bill Harrison's Genealogy Pages can be found online at http://www.harrisongenealogy.co.uk Also BMSGH Webmaster - URL = http://www.bmsgh.org Also Webmaster of The Staffordshire BMD which can be found at http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk and the West Midlands BMD at http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk ======================================================================== -----Original Message----- From: staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:staffordshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lindahenk Sent: 02 April 2012 22:09 To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Old maps/Street names/numbers Thanks seems I've got some more research to do! ----- Original Message ----- From: "New Englander" <new.englander@verizon.net> To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Old maps/Street names/numbers > Linda: > > You'll also need to consider that street numbers may change or get > renumbered over time == US, elsewhere. > > Marilyn > DC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lindahenk" <lindahenk@quicknet.nl> > To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Old maps > > >> Hi Barbara , >> Where did you get the list of renamed streets please?We plan to visit >> Staffs >> England in July my family also originates from Longton ,Burslem, >> Wolstanten >> area.I'd never thought the street names might have changed. >> Linda. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Barbara Gray" <barbarajgray8@gmail.com> >> To: "Staffordshire" <STAFFORDSHIRE@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 4:03 PM >> Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Old maps >> >> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I will be visiting Stoke on Trent later this month and want to try and >>> find >>> some of the places my ancestors lived in the Longton/Normacot end of >>> town. >>> >>> I have a list of renamed streets to help with the ones that are still >>> there, but some no longer exist and wondered if there was a detailed map >>> of >>> the area so I can at least see roughly where they were. >>> >>> I did grow up in the Potteries and have a cousin who can navigate round >>> all >>> the changes since my day! >>> >>> Thanks >>> Barbara >>> ****************************** >>> ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not >>> apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of >>> ARCHIVED >>> MATERIALS. >>> ------------------------------- >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ****************************** >> ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not >> apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of >> ARCHIVED >> MATERIALS. >> ------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not > apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED > MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Anne et al, the reason father was absent could have been the Boer War, 1898-1901. Father needed to be present at the registration for his name to go onto the birth certificate of a child. HTH, Michael -------------------------------------------------- From: "Anne Capewell" <alc_goytre@hotmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 7:12 PM To: <staffordshire@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Hugh Hughes > > Hi Jane, My g grandmother married in 1888 - I have the cert. There are 3 > children born to the couple before this date (the first in 1883) - all > name the man she married as the father on the certs. They had (at least) 2 > more children where he was named as the father. She then had 2 further > children (in 1899 and 1902) where the name of the father was left blank on > the cert. I have never found a death cert for her husband but she > described herself as 'married' in 1901 (although hubby was absent). Your > couple could have married at any time (if at all) and possibly not in > Staffs - and possibly not with their real/full names. Good luck with this > one! cheers, Anne > > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:02:30 +0100 >> From: hippojah@googlemail.com >> To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Hugh Hughes >> >> Hi Lin, Christine, >> >> Thanks for your thoughts on this. I haven't found a definite death for >> Joseph yet, I was working on the gap between the change in children's >> names >> and as noted there are a few choices. Goodness only knows where he was >> when >> the census was taken. I have tried to search, but with so little >> information and you have no idea how many Hugh HUGHES, I may never sort >> it >> out. >> >> Never mind I will try, it took me two years to find my grandfather so I >> won't give up just yet. >> >> Thank you so much for your ideas, I'll keep searching and see what comes >> up. >> >> Many Thanks >> >> Jane >> ****************************** >> ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not >> apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of >> ARCHIVED MATERIALS. >> ------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not > apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED > MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jane, My g grandmother married in 1888 - I have the cert. There are 3 children born to the couple before this date (the first in 1883) - all name the man she married as the father on the certs. They had (at least) 2 more children where he was named as the father. She then had 2 further children (in 1899 and 1902) where the name of the father was left blank on the cert. I have never found a death cert for her husband but she described herself as 'married' in 1901 (although hubby was absent). Your couple could have married at any time (if at all) and possibly not in Staffs - and possibly not with their real/full names. Good luck with this one! cheers, Anne > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 19:02:30 +0100 > From: hippojah@googlemail.com > To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Hugh Hughes > > Hi Lin, Christine, > > Thanks for your thoughts on this. I haven't found a definite death for > Joseph yet, I was working on the gap between the change in children's names > and as noted there are a few choices. Goodness only knows where he was when > the census was taken. I have tried to search, but with so little > information and you have no idea how many Hugh HUGHES, I may never sort it > out. > > Never mind I will try, it took me two years to find my grandfather so I > won't give up just yet. > > Thank you so much for your ideas, I'll keep searching and see what comes up. > > Many Thanks > > Jane > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lin, Christine, Thanks for your thoughts on this. I haven't found a definite death for Joseph yet, I was working on the gap between the change in children's names and as noted there are a few choices. Goodness only knows where he was when the census was taken. I have tried to search, but with so little information and you have no idea how many Hugh HUGHES, I may never sort it out. Never mind I will try, it took me two years to find my grandfather so I won't give up just yet. Thank you so much for your ideas, I'll keep searching and see what comes up. Many Thanks Jane

Theresa - Surely you must look for both - and any other variants you can come up with! Sorry! Graham On 04/04/2012 16:28, Theresa Goss wrote: > Thanks Graham for your very informative post. It helps greatly in my understanding the name changes. One question is should my search as I go back be for this spelling? > Theresa > > Sent from my smart phone > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4913 - Release Date: 04/03/12 > >

Hi Jane, In 1901 Hugh is shown as born c 1843. In general dates on censuses are more reliable than on death certificates as the best source, in this case Hugh, is present to give it. Have you found the death of Joseph Jones for certain? I can see a possible but it is not an uncommon name. That date would restrict potential marriage dates further. Have you also considered that they never got round to marrying? If Joseph didn't die that might be one reason but I have people in my tree who never appeared to get married but presented themselves on children's birth certificates as married. But it might be a question you never get answered. Christine -----Original Message----- From: jane hughes Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 4:55 PM To: staffordshire Subject: [STAFFORDSHIRE] Hugh Hughes Dear Listers I wonder if someone could help me with a complicated query. I am trying to track down the marriage of Caroline JONES (nee BATE) to Hugh HUGHES (possible middle name William). Hugh died in 1904 at Essington, aged approximately 58 years, which brings his birth year to around 1846, place unknown. Caroline was married to a Joseph JONES in 1868 in PENSNETT, Staffs and they had two children Agnes and Minnie, the youngest being born in 1870. By 1875 she is married to Hugh HUGHES and living in Essington they have two children William (born 1875) and Hugh (born 1880) HUGHES. I have tried in vain to find a marriage for these two but am unable. To make things worse he is missing from both the 1881 and 1891 census records, although she is listed as married. I have tried Ancestry, Freebmd, Familysearch etc etc and am totally stuck. Can anyone help, or suggest somewhere else I may look. I would appreciate any help. Thanks Jane ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Maybe Hugh was away in the Army or Navy in the missing Census years? The Marriage isn't on the IGI but then they are not all on there, would be a case of searching the Parish Records maybe starting with Essington. HTH Linda.

Dear Listers I wonder if someone could help me with a complicated query. I am trying to track down the marriage of Caroline JONES (nee BATE) to Hugh HUGHES (possible middle name William). Hugh died in 1904 at Essington, aged approximately 58 years, which brings his birth year to around 1846, place unknown. Caroline was married to a Joseph JONES in 1868 in PENSNETT, Staffs and they had two children Agnes and Minnie, the youngest being born in 1870. By 1875 she is married to Hugh HUGHES and living in Essington they have two children William (born 1875) and Hugh (born 1880) HUGHES. I have tried in vain to find a marriage for these two but am unable. To make things worse he is missing from both the 1881 and 1891 census records, although she is listed as married. I have tried Ancestry, Freebmd, Familysearch etc etc and am totally stuck. Can anyone help, or suggest somewhere else I may look. I would appreciate any help. Thanks Jane

I have Grice ancestors in the midlands and also in Monmouth and Glamorgan. Gill On 4 April 2012 09:54, Mike in Droitwich <mjflists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Just altering the subject of this thread to include the surname under > discussion. > > Mike Fisher in Droitwich > my family tree http://mjfisher.tribalpages.com > > On 04/04/2012 04:52, Tony Powell wrote: > > Bill, Grice is an unusual name. The only member of the clan I remember > was a "Mr. Grice", a one-armed war veteran, who for a living repaired > bicycles in a little shop in Leonard Road, Birches Head, Hanley, > Stoke-on-Trent. I used to take my bike to him. He was not an eager > conversationalist; I felt he was somewhat embittered by his experiences, > but I was only about 12 at the time - this would have been in or around > 1946. > > > > Hope this is of some small assistance! > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not > apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED > MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Bill If William was born in 1803, he could have been under-age when he married, and Elizabeth almost certainly was, so permission would probably have been needed for both of them, and that could give you further clues. Unfortunately, I don't have accessto the Walsall St Matthew's marriage records, but hopefully someone who does could do a lookup for you. There is also a Walsall Local HIstory Centre. Google revealed these links, which may be of some interest: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/STS/Walsall/StMatthew/index.html#ChurchRecords http://cms.walsall.gov.uk/index/parish_records.htm http://records.ancestry.com/William_Grice_records.ashx?pid=12085807 http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=987&p=localities.britisles.england.war.general http://genforum.genealogy.com/grice/messages/408.html http://genforum.genealogy.com/grice/messages/409.html Best wishes, Pam. On 03/04/2012 20:36, WGrice wrote: > Hi all, > > This is my first request to the list and wondered if some kind soul could help me with a look up to solve a very long standing problem. > > For many years I have been trying to find the birth place and consequently the parents of my g.g.grandfather William Grice born 1803 (according to marriage cert, census,etc). Unfortunately each census gives a different birthplace i.e.- > 1841 census gives his birthplace as Y for Staffs. > > 1851 census gives NK (not known). > > 1861 census gives Newcastle. Staffs. > > 1871 census gives Wednesbury. Staffs. > > He died before the 1881 census. > > > I have searched all records over the years without success. However, he raised all his family in West Bromwich, so as a last desperate measure if I could find his Settlement Papers in the West Brom records, these should give his place of birth. He married Elizabeth Barnes 3 Nov 1823 at Walsall. Elizabeth was born in Wednesbury 1803. > > Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Kind regards, > > Bill Grice. > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Bill, Have you considered he may have been baptised in a non-conformist ceremony? Looking at GRICE burials on FMP, the majority of them seem to be in the West Bromwich/Coseley/Bilston area. Have you tried using his children's names as a pointer to either William's siblings or his father. His eldest sons in the 1841 are named Enoch and Isaiah - strongly biblical. I notice on FMP burials, there is one for a Moses GRICE on 1 September 1832 at Coseley with the dedication being at the Unitarian Old Meeting House and there is the baptism of a William GRICE at West Bromwich on 21 January 1810 to a Moses & Sarah GRICE - a bit late I know but perhaps worth consideration. You may have already researched non-conformist records in which case I apologise for stating the obvious to you. Janet For many years I have been trying to find the birth place and consequently the parents of my g.g.grandfather William Grice born 1803 (according to marriage cert, census,etc). Unfortunately each census gives a different birthplace i.e.-

Might be a total red hering, but I went to school at Blue Coat long time ago, but I remember a chap in our class was Grice, his dad had a book shop just below the Central hall. Did they move to Walsall ? Brian NICHOLLS MASON

Theresa - It is well established that some accents of England merged the two vowels that we think of as 'o' as in 'lot', and 'aw' as in 'law' in some contexts. If you can remember old recordings from the 1950s and before, you will have noticed that some people said "crawss" for "cross". Further, in those accents which have dropped the pronunciation of the letter 'r' when it is followed by a consonant, words such as "caught" and "court" are pronounced identically. Consequently, "Goss" may have been pronounced "Gawss" in some accents, and so written "Gorse", which is a familiar word. I can give more technical phonetic detail if you like, and refer you to the relevant literature, which is linguistic rather than genealogical, I'm afraid. Linda is not quite accurate in saying that a family may not have known how their name was spelt - in fact, there was no "correct" spelling until fairly recently in the history of the language - the concept just did not exist. Nowadays, the "correct" spelling of a name is what the bearer of that name says it is. Hope this helps, Graham On 04/04/2012 06:09, Theresa Goss wrote: > Thanks > >> From: linlamberg@btinternet.com >> To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com >> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 05:25:58 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] GOSS/GORSE/GOSSE >> >> The spellings of names were written >> by who ever was doing the writing, with regional accents, the Parish Clerk or the Census Enumerator would spell the name as it sounded to them, the family would have been illiterate most probably so they wouldn't know how their name was spelt either! HTH Linda. >> ****************************** >> ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. >> ------------------------------- >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4912 - Release Date: 04/03/12 > >

Just altering the subject of this thread to include the surname under discussion. Mike Fisher in Droitwich my family tree http://mjfisher.tribalpages.com On 04/04/2012 04:52, Tony Powell wrote: > Bill, Grice is an unusual name. The only member of the clan I remember was a "Mr. Grice", a one-armed war veteran, who for a living repaired bicycles in a little shop in Leonard Road, Birches Head, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent. I used to take my bike to him. He was not an eager conversationalist; I felt he was somewhat embittered by his experiences, but I was only about 12 at the time - this would have been in or around 1946. > > Hope this is of some small assistance!

Thanks Graham for your very informative post. It helps greatly in my understanding the name changes. One question is should my search as I go back be for this spelling? Theresa Sent from my smart phone

I am looking forward to seeing any response to this question as I have a similar problem with a family CLOSE from Newcastle. On 4 April 2012 05:36, WGrice <wgrice@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > Hi all, > > This is my first request to the list and wondered if some kind soul could help me with a look up to solve a very long standing problem. > > For many years I have been trying to find the birth place and consequently the parents of my g.g.grandfather William Grice born 1803 (according to marriage cert, census,etc). Unfortunately each census gives a different birthplace i.e.- > 1841 census gives his birthplace as Y for Staffs. > > 1851 census gives NK (not known). > > 1861 census gives Newcastle. Staffs. > > 1871 census gives Wednesbury. Staffs. > > He died before the 1881 census. > > > I have searched all records over the years without success. However, he raised all his family in West Bromwich, so as a last desperate measure if I could find his Settlement Papers in the West Brom records, these should give his place of birth. He married Elizabeth Barnes 3 Nov 1823 at Walsall. Elizabeth was born in Wednesbury 1803. > > Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Kind regards, > > Bill Grice. > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The spellings of names were written by who ever was doing the writing, with regional accents, the Parish Clerk or the Census Enumerator would spell the name as it sounded to them, the family would have been illiterate most probably so they wouldn't know how their name was spelt either! HTH Linda.

Bill, Grice is an unusual name. The only member of the clan I remember was a "Mr. Grice", a one-armed war veteran, who for a living repaired bicycles in a little shop in Leonard Road, Birches Head, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent. I used to take my bike to him. He was not an eager conversationalist; I felt he was somewhat embittered by his experiences, but I was only about 12 at the time - this would have been in or around 1946. Hope this is of some small assistance! On Apr 3, 2012, at 3:36 PM, WGrice wrote: > Hi all, > > This is my first request to the list and wondered if some kind soul could help me with a look up to solve a very long standing problem. > > For many years I have been trying to find the birth place and consequently the parents of my g.g.grandfather William Grice born 1803 (according to marriage cert, census,etc). Unfortunately each census gives a different birthplace i.e.- > 1841 census gives his birthplace as Y for Staffs. > > 1851 census gives NK (not known). > > 1861 census gives Newcastle. Staffs. > > 1871 census gives Wednesbury. Staffs. > > He died before the 1881 census. > > > I have searched all records over the years without success. However, he raised all his family in West Bromwich, so as a last desperate measure if I could find his Settlement Papers in the West Brom records, these should give his place of birth. He married Elizabeth Barnes 3 Nov 1823 at Walsall. Elizabeth was born in Wednesbury 1803. > > Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. > > Kind regards, > > Bill Grice. > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks > From: linlamberg@btinternet.com > To: staffordshire@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 05:25:58 +0100 > Subject: Re: [STAFFORDSHIRE] GOSS/GORSE/GOSSE > > The spellings of names were written > by who ever was doing the writing, with regional accents, the Parish Clerk or the Census Enumerator would spell the name as it sounded to them, the family would have been illiterate most probably so they wouldn't know how their name was spelt either! HTH Linda. > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- When replying please remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to STAFFORDSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Richard, Once again, well done. For the newer researcher, here's an example of patience and perseverance. Richard has paged though over 400 names. He's searched the county using just a given name and birthdate. He was probably lucky that the given age wasn't one year either side, otherwise there would be over 2,000 possibilities. And of course James doesn't have the variants that you might get with Ann or William. In 1851, James is not with parents. My search failed because I included Uttoxeter and he gives his birthplace as Madeley If I don't have success, I like to ask the technique used. It's a great way to learn where we can improve. Peter