Gang, Those with charts need to get them out and throw away the first page. Let's start over there concerning William who left the Will in 1758 in Southampton County. Because of the wording of William's Will , the only child that we know to be his is Elizabeth and that was because he deeded a tract of land to her and specifically stated he was giving it to her because of the "affection for his daughter Elizabeth McElmore", so let's go over William's Will again. William is said to have been married to Mary Thorpe daughter of Jeremiah and Martha Thorpe. William mentions in his Will, Mary Bass who is to live on his plantation her lifetime. Bass researchers think Mary Bass may have been William's sister. John Spence may have been a brother. He is thought to have married Martha or Media Thorpe, who is thought to be a sister to Mary Thorpe's father Jeremiah Thorpe. Because of the above relationship, it rules John out as being a son of William and Mary Spence. If the above is true regarding John Spence, then William married his sister-in-law's brother's daughter ? Oooh.... Isn't it easier just to assume that if William had a brother named John, maybe he had a son named John too ? William's Will mentions another Mary, who is thought to have been his daughter. He mentions a Lucy Powell, possibly a daughter, not proven. He mentions John McElmore husband of his daughter Elizabeth, but not Elizabeth by name. This is Carolyn speaking here and if some get mad I'm sorry. This Southampton County line is so tied up in knots I don't see how in the world anyone knows what is going on here ! James Carver has found Thomas Spence, the Colonial Soldier in Augusta County VA, where James Spence was said to have been born in 1748. I'll buy that. In the above Will where is Thomas ? Why wasn't he mentioned ? Then we have the problem of Mary Greene married to both Thomas and William Spence. Which was it or was Thomas both, as in William Thomas Spence ? What links Thomas Spence the Colonial Soldier to Southampton County ? I am more inclined to keep the option open that the Augusta County Thomas came from either the Westmoreland County VA line or the Surry County VA line. Both lines have Williams and Thomas'. And they are much closer to Augusta County than Southampton. Could it be that researchers years ago grabbed what they could find and grafted it into this tree, as I mentioned before ? The Westmoreland line is full of gaps and missing sons & daughters. As I've said before some people descended from Westmoreland County VA settled Ashe and Surry Co. NC, so the line stretched that far. In fact there are many families in Surry Co. NC that can be traced back to the shores of the Rappahanock River. I have a William Spence in the Westmoreland line that was bequeathed a "great gun" by a Draper and then disappeared. Where did William and his great gun go ? Maybe with the other Drapers that left Westmoreland and ended up in Augusta County ? Anyway, it looks to me we are trying to pound a square peg in a round hole here on Southampton County. I think we need a new direction. If I'm wrong please let me know. What don't I see, besides Thomas ? Have I stared at this chart until I've lost my grip ? Send the men in the pretty white coats. Carolyn