Gang, To continue regarding the Fowler book. I hate to keep jumping around from one Spence to another, but I'm going with the flow. If one ancestor stands up and demands attention, I listen. >From my pioneer settler map of Surry Co. NC, Thomas Spence bought his land in 1784. Who was this Thomas ? Darned if I know. Yet. Some think he may have been Burwell's father. I don't think so. Thomas lived in the North West corner of the county near present day Low Gap. NC , west of Mt. Airy, NC. He lived in the area ,north of Skull Camp Mountain. Several settlers from this area did indeed later reside in Ashe Co. NC, and Alleghany Co., which was taken from Ashe. There are a couple of Spence families in the 1860 and 1870 Alleghany census. However, before we stand up and cheer, let me remind you that I also have Spences mixed into my Moxley line, who came from the Westmoreland Co. VA area. When the Moxleys came down they went first to Rockingham Co. NC, which is present day Eden, Madison cities. Then they moved west to Surry, and Ashe. The early occurence of Spences in the same county suggest a Westmoreland Co. line. Thomas bought his land in 1784. This does not mean that he arrived in 1784. He could have been there for many years before raising enough cash to pay for the Deed. He could have a squatter, in other words, as many NC settlers were. Or he could have had the cash and bought the land outright in 1784. His name appears on several Surry Co. records, as he was ordered to oversee a road, etc. The Fowler book details the life of one David Spence, son of Thomas Spence and Sarah Herriman. Thomas immigrated sometime in 1740 to New Jersey. During the Revolution David Spence, was assigned to a PA unit, and in the end of the War 1781 to 1782, his unit passed through NC chasing Cornwallis to the coastal area. The story goes that David got sick from malnutrition while in Surry Co. NC, and was found by Mary McElyea and fed and restored to health. He promised to come back and marry her, and he did. People have theorized that David brought his entire family back with him from NJ including parents Thomas & Sarah Spence. The book does NOT say that Thomas & Sarah also came. David had a brother named John Spence, who also served in the same PA unit. The book does NOT say that John Spence came to NC either, just that David had a brother named John. ( We certainly don't need another John Spence in this puzzle, but here he is anyway ! ) David Spence was born about 1758. There are no death records in Surry Co. NC for Thomas of NJ. ( who was born in Scotland abt. 1728 ) David and his wife Mary moved to Tennessee between 1794 and 1801. Before leaving in 1792 he was bondsman to a marriage between William Spence & Hannah Morris. In Surry Co. NC a Thomas Spence was granted 200 acres in 1787 and 250 acres in 1790. The estate of a Thomas Spence was administered there in 1801 and his wife was named LUCY. A KEZIA SPENCE purchased one pot, one kettle and one skillett at the sale of the property. For those who know Carroll Co. VA, you have seen that John Spence born abt. 1770 married Keziah Bond, daughter of Stephen & Maiden Bond about 1800. So...... if the Kezia Spence who bought the kitchen utensils in 1801 from the estate of Thomas & Lucy Spence is one and the same person ? ?????????? Now, it is said that Hale Spence, was thought to be John & Keziah's son. I've often wondered why they would have named him Hale or Hail, when I can find no connection to the Hale family of Grayson or Floyd Co. ? We have a new member descended from Lucy Spence McGrady who has the tradition in her family that Lucy Spence McGrady, was Burwell's niece, not his sister, and not his daughter. So, these pieces may be getting ready to fall into place. Tradition says that Lucy Spence had 4 daughters with her husband William McGrady, before he " disappeared". After he disappeared Lucy had 2 sons and one daughter, supposedly by a man named John HALE. However, these children carried the McGrady surname, as was legal since their mother's legal name was McGrady. So........ I need some feedback from fellow Carroll Co. people....... Is this new info, or has this already been discovered ? I did find a connection between the Burwell family and the Hail (Hale) family. Lewis Hale's wife of Grayson Co. was Mary Burwell. For everyone who are totally lost, just bear with us. Carroll Co. was formed out of Grayson Co. in 1842. So that's why you see the LDS files listed as one or the other or both. Sandra, Have you read the book yet ? Did you notice that a nephew of Robert E. Lee was living in the area in the 1920's or 1930's ? And that a Burwell family lived on the land that had belonged to the Lees ? I read in one of the Carroll Co. Heritage books that the vicinity where Burwell is thought to be buried was also originally part of the Lee's land holdings. What are your thoughts on a connection of these Lee's to your Lees ????? Illegitimacy. I've avoided this topic, but feel it is worth a few words. History is telling us that this didn't occur all that much, but friends, I see it everywhere and it looks to be pretty rampant. I have both my husband's and my own pedigree complete for 6 generations, and between the both of us, we each have an ancestor who had children without marriage. He has 2 Puckett's !! In a row !!! I have one down in Ashe Co. NC, and I think I will blame it on a Puckett or a Spence ! <grin> Seriously, is there anyone who has not encountered this ????? I've never met a single soul who has gotton back several generations and NOT encountered it . So, let's be open about it ..... And ask the neighbors, maybe ? <grin> So what do we know about this Thomas of Surry Co. ? Wouldn't it be great if he were the missing father of James Spence of the Bluford clan ???? Let's get some discussion going, or Rootsweb will throw us out .......... Carolyn