YES!!! Excellent book, I highly recommend it. You can purchase it from any book store. Cory

In a message dated 8/5/99 4:57:10 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > It is also certainly very true that SOME Scots-Irish families were highly > educated and were very good record keepers, especially those who kept close > ties to the Presbyterian church. But I think it is safe to say that as a > general rule, most of them were not. [I take as my authority on this point > the excellent book by David Hackett Fisher, "Albion's Seed," which has long > discussions contrasting the Scots-Irish with the English settlers in > colonial > North America.] Jim, you have a higher opinion of David Hackett Fisher and "Albion's Seed" than I do. And more learned people than I have voiced their own disagreement with him. Because of the great distance to North Carolina, members of the Robertson-Donelson Party that established the Cumberland Settlements in Middle Tennessee in 1779/1780 immediately set about establishing self-government. They drew up and each man signed the Cumberland Compact. There were approximately 250 signers, and all but one signed with his name. You may argue that they were not representative of the Scots-Irish on the frontier, but they certainly contradict the stereotype Fisher has given us. Scots have been referred to as the managers of the British Empire because it was they, not Englishmen, who staffed the offices and kept the records of England's far flung colonies. The term "borderer" and Scots-Irish are not interchangeable. The only thing they have in common is the Scottish origin. Borderers lived on the border between Scotland and England; the Scots-Irish were those who had lived in Ireland at least a generation or two, having been transported there by England to help in their subjugation of the Irish. I will concede this: its rather difficult to give your children a classical education on the frontier while defending them from Indian attack, and the Colonial Establishment on the eastern seaboard had adopted England's practice of using the Scots to do what they couldn't or wouldn't do. Education and intelligence are two more terms that are not interchangeable, and one would do well to keep that in mind when buying in to stereotypes. Joyce

[email protected] Please use this to Unsub.... ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Southern-Trails-D Digest V99 #215 > UNSUBSCRIBE > > > ==== Southern-Trails Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list, send a message to > [email protected] if you are subscribed to the list, > or [email protected] if you are subscribed to the digest. > In the body of your message put only the word unsubscribe >

On the 1850 Sabine County, Texas Census, I find one of my ancestors, Rebecca Fullen, a 23 year old widow with three young sons. The census shows that all three boys were born in Texas, and that she and her husband J. Fullen (James or John) were born in PA. As far as I can tell, they seem to be of the few people on that Census born in PA. On the death certificate of one son, as reported by the other son, he said his parents James FULLEN and Rebecca BALDWIN were from Tennesse and North Carolina respectivelly. I assume that probably the parents were born in PA, and moved to the other states with their families while they were young, and then moved onto Texas. Does this make sense to the rest of you? Do you think they were part of a larger Scotch-Irish migration? Melinda McLemore Strong in Texas

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My two cents worth (not worth any more!). I had Keowns who came to Abbeville area around 1770, and married into Youngs who were also from Ireland, (and connected to Keowns in the old country)..as were the McCurdy's....and I am failrly sure they all came directly to Charleston from the old country. By the turn of the century they all went to the Bowling Green Area of Ky, later down into Tn, Ala. I find others with the same names, and would almost swear they were related, but they came through Pa-Va. Another name was McDonald. My Matthew PICKENS Young married Martha (Patsy) McDonald in Ky. I know he was SC but can't figure out which group of McDonalds were hers. But there were some who came directly into SC from Ireland. Jean [email protected] wrote: > In a message dated 8/5/99 8:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > There is a greater chance that the SC families > > living in the Upcountry(Spartanburg, District 96, Chester, etc) were > > from Pennsylvania than from Scotland/Ireland. There were some families > > direct from Scotland/Ireland to the SC coast who did move to the > > upcountry between 1760 and 1790. The earlier the family was in the > > upcountry SC the greater the chances they were from Pennsylvania. > > Hi Harold! As a general proposition, I agree with you entirely. There was a > message a month or so ago, however, from somebody who had info on a KNOX > family who came directly from Ireland to SC ca. 1760-70 and settled in York > County. They had one son named James and another named John. And if I recall > the details correctly, another son died at sea during the voyage. Of course, > we don't have proof that these people were the same KNOXes of > Pendleton/Pickens, but the theory fits the known facts pretty well, > especially since we also have information from the Pendleton newspaper obit > of the John KNOX who died in 1828 that he was born in Ireland ca. 1764. So > until additional facts come to light, my subjective probability estimate is > about 75% that the Pendleton/Pickens KNOXes came to SC directly from Ireland, > with only about a 25% probability that they passed thru Pennsylvania on the > way to SC. I am certainly not wedded to this interpretation, however, so I > welcome criticism from you and others. > > I have never seen info to the effect that any significant number of the North > Carolina Scots-Irish came directly to the Carolinas from Ireland. So I am > assuming that virtually all of the NC KNOX families passed thru PA before > going south. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point. > > It is also certainly very true that SOME Scots-Irish families were highly > educated and were very good record keepers, especially those who kept close > ties to the Presbyterian church. But I think it is safe to say that as a > general rule, most of them were not. [I take as my authority on this point > the excellent book by David Hackett Fisher, "Albion's Seed," which has long > discussions contrasting the Scots-Irish with the English settlers in colonial > North America.] Moreover, it seems to me that the families who stayed on the > move and kept on pushing toward the frontier, as did my BROWNs, were probably > worse educated and worse as record keepers than those Scots-Irish who stayed > in the Atlantic coastal states. > > As a final note, it should be observed that not all the "Scots-Irish" > actually had roots in Scotland, nor did they always live in Ireland before > coming to America. According to David Hackett Fisher ("Albion's Seed" -- a > book I can't recommend too much!), these people had their roots in the border > region between Scotland and England. Since the border was constantly > shifting, and since many a "Scottish" clan had land on both sides of the > border, the so-called "Scots-Irish" were as much northern Englishmen as they > were southern Scotsmen. Fisher prefers to call them "borderers." But the term > "Scots-Irish" is still OK by me. > > Regards, Jim Brown ([email protected]) > > ==== Southern-Trails Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list, send a message to > [email protected] if you are subscribed to the list, > or [email protected] if you are subscribed to the digest. > In the body of your message put only the word unsubscribe

Hi To add to the info about immigrants to the Upland area, I know of an Alexander Shaw, b. @1780 in Antrim Ireland who was married in Pendleton in 1807, and seems to have owned land in the area not far from the Indian Territory before that. I also know of a William Shaw who was granted land on Wildcat Creek in Greenville Co. who arrived in the 1770's from Scotland or Ireland, don't recall which. There were other immigrants who were being granted land in the Tyger River area about the same time. As you can probably tell, I'm researching Shaws from NC and SC. Jan [email protected] wrote: > > In a message dated 8/5/99 8:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > There is a greater chance that the SC families > > living in the Upcountry(Spartanburg, District 96, Chester, etc) were > > from Pennsylvania than from Scotland/Ireland. There were some families > > direct from Scotland/Ireland to the SC coast who did move to the > > upcountry between 1760 and 1790. The earlier the family was in the > > upcountry SC the greater the chances they were from Pennsylvania.

Hi listers, I read all of your messages with great interest. I signed up for this page in the hopes of learning more of my Scot - Irish immigrants. So this is my first posting to this board and I sure hope someone can shed some light on a question that has not been answered. My Noble family has been recorded as early as 1772, living in Anson Co., NC. Montgomery County formed from Anson County in 1779. By 1780, the inhabitants of the new county were placed on the tax records. Tax Records for Montgomery Co., NC, for 1780 - 1782 reflect the Noble family as thus: WILLIAM NOBLES, invalid, 1600 acres, 1 slave DAVID NOBLES William Nobel, Jr., single, 400 acres Thomas Nobel, single, 250 acres So the question is, why would William Noble Sr., have so much land? I was under the impression from Mr. Leyburn's book, "The Scot - Irish", that not many of the western North Carolina settlers had much more than 500 acres of land. Am I wrong in that assumption? Oral family history said that the immigrant brothers came from South Ireland, after freeing a brother from jail, sometime in the unknown past,and sailed straight to NC. I'm beginning to feel that this part of the story is incorrect and that they came south through PA/VA. Ok, y'all, tell me what you think? I look forward to reading your posts. Regards, Cory Tarrants (Descendant of David & Sarah Fry Noble)

--part1_fbe9ae5.24db4eaf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_fbe9ae5.24db4eaf_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <[email protected]> Received: from aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by air-yd03.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 15:41:26 -0400 Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 15:41:15 -0400 Received: from home.com ([24.0.191.201]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <[email protected]> for <[email protected]>; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:41:13 -0700 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:40:47 -0700 From: Jan Garland <[email protected]> Organization: Hah! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-AtHome0404 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Scots-Irish Migration & Record-Keeping References: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi To add to the info about immigrants to the Upland area, I know of Alexander Shaw, b. @1780 in Antrim Ireland who was married in Pendleton in 1807, and seems to have owned land in the area not far from the Indian Territory before that. I also know of a William Shaw who was granted land on Wildcat Creek in Greenville Co. who arrived in the 1770's from Scotland or Ireland, don't recall which As you can probably tell, I'm researching Shaws from NC and SC. Jan [email protected] wrote: > > In a message dated 8/5/99 8:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > There is a greater chance that the SC families > > living in the Upcountry(Spartanburg, District 96, Chester, etc) were > > from Pennsylvania than from Scotland/Ireland. There were some families > > direct from Scotland/Ireland to the SC coast who did move to the > > upcountry between 1760 and 1790. The earlier the family was in the > > upcountry SC the greater the chances they were from Pennsylvania. > > Hi Harold! As a general proposition, I agree with you entirely. There was a > message a month or so ago, however, from somebody who had info on a KNOX > family who came directly from Ireland to SC ca. 1760-70 and settled in York > County. They had one son named James and another named John. And if I recall > the details correctly, another son died at sea during the voyage. Of course, > we don't have proof that these people were the same KNOXes of > Pendleton/Pickens, but the theory fits the known facts pretty well, > especially since we also have information from the Pendleton newspaper obit > of the John KNOX who died in 1828 that he was born in Ireland ca. 1764. So > until additional facts come to light, my subjective probability estimate is > about 75% that the Pendleton/Pickens KNOXes came to SC directly from Ireland, > with only about a 25% probability that they passed thru Pennsylvania on the > way to SC. I am certainly not wedded to this interpretation, however, so I > welcome criticism from you and others. > > I have never seen info to the effect that any significant number of the North > Carolina Scots-Irish came directly to the Carolinas from Ireland. So I am > assuming that virtually all of the NC KNOX families passed thru PA before > going south. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point. > > It is also certainly very true that SOME Scots-Irish families were highly > educated and were very good record keepers, especially those who kept close > ties to the Presbyterian church. But I think it is safe to say that as a > general rule, most of them were not. [I take as my authority on this point > the excellent book by David Hackett Fisher, "Albion's Seed," which has long > discussions contrasting the Scots-Irish with the English settlers in colonial > North America.] Moreover, it seems to me that the families who stayed on the > move and kept on pushing toward the frontier, as did my BROWNs, were probably > worse educated and worse as record keepers than those Scots-Irish who stayed > in the Atlantic coastal states. > > As a final note, it should be observed that not all the "Scots-Irish" > actually had roots in Scotland, nor did they always live in Ireland before > coming to America. According to David Hackett Fisher ("Albion's Seed" -- a > book I can't recommend too much!), these people had their roots in the border > region between Scotland and England. Since the border was constantly > shifting, and since many a "Scottish" clan had land on both sides of the > border, the so-called "Scots-Irish" were as much northern Englishmen as they > were southern Scotsmen. Fisher prefers to call them "borderers." But the term > "Scots-Irish" is still OK by me. > > Regards, Jim Brown ([email protected]) > > ==== Southern-Trails Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list, send a message to > [email protected] if you are subscribed to the list, > or [email protected] if you are subscribed to the digest. > In the body of your message put only the word unsubscribe --part1_fbe9ae5.24db4eaf_boundary--

--part1_b942ca21.24db4e2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_b942ca21.24db4e2b_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <[email protected]> Received: from aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:10:56 -0400 Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (v60.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:10:42 -0400 Received: from default (host-209-214-77-96.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.77.96]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.0/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22812 for <[email protected]>; Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 12:12:26 -0400 From: Harold Harrison <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: SouthGen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Scots-Irish Migration & Record-Keeping References: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [email protected] wrote: > > In a message dated 8/5/99 8:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > There is a greater chance that the SC families > > living in the Upcountry(Spartanburg, District 96, Chester, etc) were > > from Pennsylvania than from Scotland/Ireland. There were some families > > direct from Scotland/Ireland to the SC coast who did move to the > > upcountry between 1760 and 1790. The earlier the family was in the > > upcountry SC the greater the chances they were from Pennsylvania. > > Hi Harold! As a general proposition, I agree with you entirely. There was a > message a month or so ago, however, from somebody who had info on a KNOX > family who came directly from Ireland to SC ca. 1760-70 and settled in York > County. They had one son named James and another named John. And if I recall > the details correctly, another son died at sea during the voyage. Of course, > we don't have proof that these people were the same KNOXes of > Pendleton/Pickens, but the theory fits the known facts pretty well, > especially since we also have information from the Pendleton newspaper obit > of the John KNOX who died in 1828 that he was born in Ireland ca. 1764. So > until additional facts come to light, my subjective probability estimate is > about 75% that the Pendleton/Pickens KNOXes came to SC directly from Ireland, > with only about a 25% probability that they passed thru Pennsylvania on the > way to SC. I am certainly not wedded to this interpretation, however, so I > welcome criticism from you and others. > > I have never seen info to the effect that any significant number of the North > Carolina Scots-Irish came directly to the Carolinas from Ireland. So I am > assuming that virtually all of the NC KNOX families passed thru PA before > going south. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point. > > It is also certainly very true that SOME Scots-Irish families were highly > educated and were very good record keepers, especially those who kept close > ties to the Presbyterian church. But I think it is safe to say that as a > general rule, most of them were not. [I take as my authority on this point > the excellent book by David Hackett Fisher, "Albion's Seed," which has long > discussions contrasting the Scots-Irish with the English settlers in colonial > North America.] Moreover, it seems to me that the families who stayed on the > move and kept on pushing toward the frontier, as did my BROWNs, were probably > worse educated and worse as record keepers than those Scots-Irish who stayed > in the Atlantic coastal states. > > As a final note, it should be observed that not all the "Scots-Irish" > actually had roots in Scotland, nor did they always live in Ireland before > coming to America. According to David Hackett Fisher ("Albion's Seed" -- a > book I can't recommend too much!), these people had their roots in the border > region between Scotland and England. Since the border was constantly > shifting, and since many a "Scottish" clan had land on both sides of the > border, the so-called "Scots-Irish" were as much northern Englishmen as they > were southern Scotsmen. Fisher prefers to call them "borderers." But the term > "Scots-Irish" is still OK by me. > > Regards, Jim Brown ([email protected]) Hello again Jim Very interesting. With the newspaper account of them being from Ireland would give much creedence to you scenerio. As for Scot/Irish entering the Carolinas there were many who entered from the port of Charleston SC. I have found most were from Antrim Ireland. I have 14,000 names in my database. I jsut like collecting info and compiling stats. I have found almost all of my Scot/Irish had ties to the Presbyterian Church. Over half my direct ancestors are Scotish or Scot/Irish. I cannot recall any of them that could not read or write. I find two instances of illeteracy.One instance was a family of English Quakers who married the Irish. The second was just after the War of Southern Independence. The poorer the Southern families lost after the War seem to be followed a lose of education. I find no lose of education with my families who moved. The average family back then moved 6 times during a lifetime. I have traced movements from Va/Pa area through NC to SC/Ga to Al to Ms to Tx. I have not read Albions Seed . It does sound like worthwhile reading. While I am no exbert on the Scot/Irish I have read and conversed with researchers and genealogist about the subject. It is my understanding the term Scot/Irish comes from the Scotish people who were forced or fled Scotland to northern Ireland then to the colonies. I sure many scots were given the label Scot/Irish because the ship they entered the colonies came directly from Ireland. The term border Scots were those Scots who lived on the border of Englang and Scotland. The English hated the Scots and were all the time trying ti steal their land. The Scots took offence and did battle. The English were so upset with the Scotish retaliation they ran the warring border scots out of scotland. They captured many and sent them to the plantations in Northern Ireland. Many Scots died at the hand of the English. Many scots died on their sail to the new world from being packed on ships trying to flee the English. They suffered from sickness and starvation. Border Scots and Scot/Irish are two different term. It does get interesting doesn't it. Harold --part1_b942ca21.24db4e2b_boundary--

In a message dated 8/5/99 8:51:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > There is a greater chance that the SC families > living in the Upcountry(Spartanburg, District 96, Chester, etc) were > from Pennsylvania than from Scotland/Ireland. There were some families > direct from Scotland/Ireland to the SC coast who did move to the > upcountry between 1760 and 1790. The earlier the family was in the > upcountry SC the greater the chances they were from Pennsylvania. Hi Harold! As a general proposition, I agree with you entirely. There was a message a month or so ago, however, from somebody who had info on a KNOX family who came directly from Ireland to SC ca. 1760-70 and settled in York County. They had one son named James and another named John. And if I recall the details correctly, another son died at sea during the voyage. Of course, we don't have proof that these people were the same KNOXes of Pendleton/Pickens, but the theory fits the known facts pretty well, especially since we also have information from the Pendleton newspaper obit of the John KNOX who died in 1828 that he was born in Ireland ca. 1764. So until additional facts come to light, my subjective probability estimate is about 75% that the Pendleton/Pickens KNOXes came to SC directly from Ireland, with only about a 25% probability that they passed thru Pennsylvania on the way to SC. I am certainly not wedded to this interpretation, however, so I welcome criticism from you and others. I have never seen info to the effect that any significant number of the North Carolina Scots-Irish came directly to the Carolinas from Ireland. So I am assuming that virtually all of the NC KNOX families passed thru PA before going south. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point. It is also certainly very true that SOME Scots-Irish families were highly educated and were very good record keepers, especially those who kept close ties to the Presbyterian church. But I think it is safe to say that as a general rule, most of them were not. [I take as my authority on this point the excellent book by David Hackett Fisher, "Albion's Seed," which has long discussions contrasting the Scots-Irish with the English settlers in colonial North America.] Moreover, it seems to me that the families who stayed on the move and kept on pushing toward the frontier, as did my BROWNs, were probably worse educated and worse as record keepers than those Scots-Irish who stayed in the Atlantic coastal states. As a final note, it should be observed that not all the "Scots-Irish" actually had roots in Scotland, nor did they always live in Ireland before coming to America. According to David Hackett Fisher ("Albion's Seed" -- a book I can't recommend too much!), these people had their roots in the border region between Scotland and England. Since the border was constantly shifting, and since many a "Scottish" clan had land on both sides of the border, the so-called "Scots-Irish" were as much northern Englishmen as they were southern Scotsmen. Fisher prefers to call them "borderers." But the term "Scots-Irish" is still OK by me. Regards, Jim Brown ([email protected])

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In a message dated 8/4/99 11:21:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << she is wearing chains around her neck they are not small chains but rather large and then look as though they go down her front -- photo only goes to waist. >> I have an old watch chain of a female ancestor where the links were not small. What size would you say an individual link would be? Do they look as if they are made of a metal or could they be made of hair? Debby

Do the chains look like industrial or ornamental chains... of steel or of gold or silver? Ok, many gypsy men and women were known to wear their wealth around their neck... in the form of gold coins on a chain, for the women, especially, or in links, of gold that could be removed, one by one, if necessary for payment of goods... Does the picture, by chance, depict the lady with a scarf on her head, or with her hair in braids? You wrote: From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:00:04 EDT Subject: Old Photos Thanks to everyone who put me on the right trail from VA to OH --had many responses and some good tips of where to look. I have another question for everyone -- I have an OLD photo of an ancestor CHRISTINA HEDGE from Polkadotte, Lawrence, Ohio -- it is about 1840-1860 she is wearing chains around her neck they are not small chains but rather large and then look as though they go down her front -- photo only goes to waist. My husband and I are wondering WHAT they are for?? Was this a style or was it for mourning or what?? Anyone have any ideas on this one. Thanks ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Lyndia, be sure to let us know aout the "chains arund her neck" sounds like an interesting story. Nita.

vacation

<<she is wearing chains around her neck they are not small chains but rather large and then look as though they go down her front -- photo only goes to waist.>> I'd like to hear the answer to this one, myself.

Thought I'd try my question of you all again. Does anyone have ideas of route a man would have walked, in summer of 1865, from Ft. Delaware prison (Pea Patch island on river between De. and New Jersey) to Drew County, Arkansas? thanks for your thoughts Anne Gray

Thanks to everyone who put me on the right trail from VA to OH --had many responses and some good tips of where to look. I have another question for everyone -- I have an OLD photo of an ancestor CHRISTINA HEDGE from Polkadotte, Lawrence, Ohio -- it is about 1840-1860 she is wearing chains around her neck they are not small chains but rather large and then look as though they go down her front -- photo only goes to waist. My husband and I are wondering WHAT they are for?? Was this a style or was it for mourning or what?? Anyone have any ideas on this one. Thanks Lynda Yates Spann Researching: YATES - VA & Ohio, ARNOLD - Ohio, GORNALL - Ohio SPANN - MS ,-- GADDIS - GA, MS, LA, HEDGE - Ohio, KY SMELTZER - MA, Kansas, POWELL - England, SAYES - Engl. BIRT - ENg. FRICKER - Eng.

Can someone help me identify this trip made by my ancestors -- from a letter it says they travelled from Culpepper to Staunton then across Cheat Mt., on the Staunton and Parkersburg turnpike Was Culpepper at one time in W. VA? They were travelling to Ohio. Any sites I can look this up, thanks -- i am not familiar with this part of the country. Lynda Spann