that is so interesting - i didn't know that searching for my HODGES - a bunch of them were in the Rev War - Long Bluff, Old Cheraw dist and Cumberland/Bladen Counties. Lots of Torrie and British activity around there. If you connect to any Hodges let me know about them, thie line is most difficult. i am just learning about it - i am 65 years old. josie At 10:02 PM 08/09/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Yes, our history books leave a lot out. I remember reading in the past >year (while searching for dead relatives) that a full ten years before >the Declaration of Ind., in NC a rather well mannered mob approached the >English Governor at his home and in broad daylight, told him flat out >they were refusing to pay the latest tax levied, I think it was the >Stamp Tax. And then they got a hold of the man appointed to collect the >tax for the governor and, in what I'm sure was a highly charged moment, >got him to sign a refusal to collect the tax. I never read about that in >school either. > >Jan > >Josephine Lindsay Bass wrote: >> >> I have wondered why NE Colonies seem to get huge boost in History text >> books whereas Virginia and SC hardly get a mention even about their Rev War >> participation. >> >> Wasn't JAMESTOWN before PLYMOUTH COLONY? >> >> I can only speculate that NE and US govt write the text books. >> >> josie >> >> At 08:20 PM 08/09/1999 -0700, you wrote: >> >Southern-Trails-D Digest Volume 99 : Issue 221 >> > >> >Today's Topics: >> > #1 Cracker? Moi? [[email protected]] >> > #2 Re: Albion's Seed [[email protected]] >> > >> >Administrivia: >> >To unsubscribe from Southern-Trails-D, send a message to >> > >> > [email protected] >> > >> >that contains in the body of the message the command >> > >> > unsubscribe >> > >> >and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software >> >requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. >> > >> >______________________________X-Message: #1 >> >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:19:08 EDT >> >From: [email protected] >> >To: [email protected] >> >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >Subject: Cracker? Moi? >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> > >> >In a message dated 08/08/1999 6:52:07 PM Central Daylight Time, >> >[email protected] writes: >> > >> >> Fischer's scholarship seems to be quite thorough, and while exception can >> >> always be taken, his discussion of the four folkways is, I think, really >> >> enlightening and was a huge undertaking. >> > >> >I don't dispute the magnitude of Fischer's undertaking. It is nothing if >> not >> >long. Perhaps my failure is in judging his work from the anthropologist's >> >point of view. Cultures differ, but to judge one as superior to another is >> >to reveal our own prejudices and prejudice has no place in scholarship. >> > >> >I ask again, what makes the English who settled in New England so superior >> to >> >the English who settled Virginia and South Carolina? Why are the Germans of >> >North Carolina inferior to those of Pennsylvania? Why were both incapable >> of >> >overcoming the influence of that ungovernable horde of Scots-Irish that >> >began arriving in 1720? >> > >> >If I called Fischer a bigot, I'm sure he and his fans would be outraged. >> >Certainly McWhiney (don't you just love *that* name?) would not have found a >> >publisher if he had written about Italians, Poles, or African-Americans and >> >used an ethnic epitaph in the title as he used cracker. >> > >> >I suppose my problem is that I periodically get my fill of being a handy >> >target for every character who needs a quick fix for his low self esteem. >> >Propounding prejudices under the guise of scholarly research simply shows >> >that bigotry is not limited to the uneducated lower classes. Of course one >> >man's prejudice is another man's honest assessment, and even Robert Burns >> >(Horrors! A Scotsman!) couldn't persuade him to see himself as others see >> >him. >> > >> >Perhaps its the dog days of summer or the impending eclipse of the sun, but >> >this, too, shall pass. Once again I'll be able to sympathize with those >> >whose insecurities drive them past their limits of tolerance. My sense of >> >humor will return to me and I'll laugh at myself with Jeff Foxworthy while >> >you see yourself in Don Rickles' jokes. I'll listen to Louis Armstrong's >> >horn and leave you with Lawrence Welk's accordion. I'll read Faulkner, you >> >take Hemingway, please. >> > >> >Therefore, I hereby sentence myself to twenty lashes with a kudzu vine, but >> >do I have to eat scrapple? >> > >> >Joyce >> > >> >______________________________X-Message: #2 >> >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:42:59 EDT >> >From: [email protected] >> >To: [email protected] >> >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> >Subject: Re: Albion's Seed >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >> > >> >In a message dated 8/7/99 5:17:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] >> >writes: >> > >> >> Odd that the English settlers of New England laid the foundation for our >> >> freedoms while banishing or burning those who worshipped differently, >> while >> >> those in Virginia and the Carolinas and most especially those in Maryland >> >> were hardly worthy of mention. >> > >> >Hi Joyce again! There must be some confusion as to the book under >> discussion. >> >You say that the book by Fischer "hardly" mentions the English settlers of >> >VA, MD and the Carolinas. But the extremely excellent book I was talking >> >about, which is the paperback version (1994) of "Albion's Seed," by David >> >Hackett Fischer, devotes approximately one-fourth of its space to the >> English >> >settlers of Virginia and Maryland. In fact, Fischer hails originally from >> >Maryland's Eastern Shore, and he devotes quite a bit of discussion to his >> >Maryland homeland. >> > >> >Approximately another fourth of the book is devoted to the "borderers" >> (which >> >includes the Scotch-Irish), though the number of pages here is slightly less >> >than in the section on the Southern English. Finally, the New England >> >Puritans and the Delaware Valley Quakers also get about one-fourth each of >> >the book. So I guess you and I have read different books. >> > >> >I am still eager to read the review(s) by the critic(s) that didn't like the >> >book. So if you or anybody else can recall his or her name(s), please be >> sure >> >to pass it along. Thanks in advance! >> > >> >Best regards, Jim Brown ([email protected]) >> > >> [email protected] >> 216 Beach Park Lane >> Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003 >> >> Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY* >> http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm >> My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm >> LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List >> GENCONNECT: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/indx/FamAssoc.html >> >> Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me, Josephine >> Lindsay Bass >> >> ==== Southern-Trails Mailing List ==== >> Rootsweb is Free! But Rootsweb is supported by volunteers and >> contributions. Show your support and become a member. Click here >> for more information: >> http://www.rootsweb.com > > [email protected] 216 Beach Park Lane Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003 Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY* http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List GENCONNECT: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/indx/FamAssoc.html Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me, Josephine Lindsay Bass

In a message dated 08/09/1999 10:22:06 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Approximately another fourth of the book is devoted to the "borderers" (which > > includes the Scotch-Irish) Since it has been several years since I read the book, it probably would have been prudent of me to refresh my memory before going on record with my opinion. The only thing I can say with absolute certainty, and I'm sure all will agree, is that I found the book quite forgettable. Joyce

I have wondered why NE Colonies seem to get huge boost in History text books whereas Virginia and SC hardly get a mention even about their Rev War participation. Wasn't JAMESTOWN before PLYMOUTH COLONY? I can only speculate that NE and US govt write the text books. josie At 08:20 PM 08/09/1999 -0700, you wrote: >Southern-Trails-D Digest Volume 99 : Issue 221 > >Today's Topics: > #1 Cracker? Moi? [[email protected]] > #2 Re: Albion's Seed [[email protected]] > >Administrivia: >To unsubscribe from Southern-Trails-D, send a message to > > [email protected] > >that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > >and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software >requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > >______________________________X-Message: #1 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 11:19:08 EDT >From: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Subject: Cracker? Moi? >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >In a message dated 08/08/1999 6:52:07 PM Central Daylight Time, >[email protected] writes: > >> Fischer's scholarship seems to be quite thorough, and while exception can >> always be taken, his discussion of the four folkways is, I think, really >> enlightening and was a huge undertaking. > >I don't dispute the magnitude of Fischer's undertaking. It is nothing if not >long. Perhaps my failure is in judging his work from the anthropologist's >point of view. Cultures differ, but to judge one as superior to another is >to reveal our own prejudices and prejudice has no place in scholarship. > >I ask again, what makes the English who settled in New England so superior to >the English who settled Virginia and South Carolina? Why are the Germans of >North Carolina inferior to those of Pennsylvania? Why were both incapable of >overcoming the influence of that ungovernable horde of Scots-Irish that >began arriving in 1720? > >If I called Fischer a bigot, I'm sure he and his fans would be outraged. >Certainly McWhiney (don't you just love *that* name?) would not have found a >publisher if he had written about Italians, Poles, or African-Americans and >used an ethnic epitaph in the title as he used cracker. > >I suppose my problem is that I periodically get my fill of being a handy >target for every character who needs a quick fix for his low self esteem. >Propounding prejudices under the guise of scholarly research simply shows >that bigotry is not limited to the uneducated lower classes. Of course one >man's prejudice is another man's honest assessment, and even Robert Burns >(Horrors! A Scotsman!) couldn't persuade him to see himself as others see >him. > >Perhaps its the dog days of summer or the impending eclipse of the sun, but >this, too, shall pass. Once again I'll be able to sympathize with those >whose insecurities drive them past their limits of tolerance. My sense of >humor will return to me and I'll laugh at myself with Jeff Foxworthy while >you see yourself in Don Rickles' jokes. I'll listen to Louis Armstrong's >horn and leave you with Lawrence Welk's accordion. I'll read Faulkner, you >take Hemingway, please. > >Therefore, I hereby sentence myself to twenty lashes with a kudzu vine, but >do I have to eat scrapple? > >Joyce > >______________________________X-Message: #2 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:42:59 EDT >From: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: Albion's Seed >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >In a message dated 8/7/99 5:17:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] >writes: > >> Odd that the English settlers of New England laid the foundation for our >> freedoms while banishing or burning those who worshipped differently, while >> those in Virginia and the Carolinas and most especially those in Maryland >> were hardly worthy of mention. > >Hi Joyce again! There must be some confusion as to the book under discussion. >You say that the book by Fischer "hardly" mentions the English settlers of >VA, MD and the Carolinas. But the extremely excellent book I was talking >about, which is the paperback version (1994) of "Albion's Seed," by David >Hackett Fischer, devotes approximately one-fourth of its space to the English >settlers of Virginia and Maryland. In fact, Fischer hails originally from >Maryland's Eastern Shore, and he devotes quite a bit of discussion to his >Maryland homeland. > >Approximately another fourth of the book is devoted to the "borderers" (which >includes the Scotch-Irish), though the number of pages here is slightly less >than in the section on the Southern English. Finally, the New England >Puritans and the Delaware Valley Quakers also get about one-fourth each of >the book. So I guess you and I have read different books. > >I am still eager to read the review(s) by the critic(s) that didn't like the >book. So if you or anybody else can recall his or her name(s), please be sure >to pass it along. Thanks in advance! > >Best regards, Jim Brown ([email protected]) > [email protected] 216 Beach Park Lane Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003 Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY* http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List GENCONNECT: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/indx/FamAssoc.html Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me, Josephine Lindsay Bass

At 11:49 PM 8/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >I have wondered why NE Colonies seem to get huge boost in History text >books whereas Virginia and SC hardly get a mention even about their Rev War >participation. > >Wasn't JAMESTOWN before PLYMOUTH COLONY? > >I can only speculate that NE and US govt write the text books. > >josie well Josie......try working on Civil War history. All you see is Robert E. Lee and the Army of Virginia. They might have been the best, but there was also a war fought in the "west" - places like MO, Kansas, Arkansas, Arizona. Finding that in the history books is difficult. Also, the men from the west were fighting against U.S. Grant at Shilo, Vicksburg, etc. He had to beat them before he was noticed by the powers that be, and sent against Lee. Another one of my gripes.....what about women in the history books? You see Daniel Boone, Andrew Jackson, Thomas Jefferson.....always men. Or what about the colored troops who fought and died in 1860-1865? or the early black immigration to the west? I guess I could go on, just as long as we know not everyone made it into the history books. That is probably why we are all searching for our family roots, cause they are not in the history books. That does not make our ancestors any less important, just un-recorded heros. Mary

In a message dated 8/7/99 5:17:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Odd that the English settlers of New England laid the foundation for our > freedoms while banishing or burning those who worshipped differently, while > those in Virginia and the Carolinas and most especially those in Maryland > were hardly worthy of mention. Hi Joyce again! There must be some confusion as to the book under discussion. You say that the book by Fischer "hardly" mentions the English settlers of VA, MD and the Carolinas. But the extremely excellent book I was talking about, which is the paperback version (1994) of "Albion's Seed," by David Hackett Fischer, devotes approximately one-fourth of its space to the English settlers of Virginia and Maryland. In fact, Fischer hails originally from Maryland's Eastern Shore, and he devotes quite a bit of discussion to his Maryland homeland. Approximately another fourth of the book is devoted to the "borderers" (which includes the Scotch-Irish), though the number of pages here is slightly less than in the section on the Southern English. Finally, the New England Puritans and the Delaware Valley Quakers also get about one-fourth each of the book. So I guess you and I have read different books. I am still eager to read the review(s) by the critic(s) that didn't like the book. So if you or anybody else can recall his or her name(s), please be sure to pass it along. Thanks in advance! Best regards, Jim Brown ([email protected])

In a message dated 08/08/1999 6:52:07 PM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Fischer's scholarship seems to be quite thorough, and while exception can > always be taken, his discussion of the four folkways is, I think, really > enlightening and was a huge undertaking. I don't dispute the magnitude of Fischer's undertaking. It is nothing if not long. Perhaps my failure is in judging his work from the anthropologist's point of view. Cultures differ, but to judge one as superior to another is to reveal our own prejudices and prejudice has no place in scholarship. I ask again, what makes the English who settled in New England so superior to the English who settled Virginia and South Carolina? Why are the Germans of North Carolina inferior to those of Pennsylvania? Why were both incapable of overcoming the influence of that ungovernable horde of Scots-Irish that began arriving in 1720? If I called Fischer a bigot, I'm sure he and his fans would be outraged. Certainly McWhiney (don't you just love *that* name?) would not have found a publisher if he had written about Italians, Poles, or African-Americans and used an ethnic epitaph in the title as he used cracker. I suppose my problem is that I periodically get my fill of being a handy target for every character who needs a quick fix for his low self esteem. Propounding prejudices under the guise of scholarly research simply shows that bigotry is not limited to the uneducated lower classes. Of course one man's prejudice is another man's honest assessment, and even Robert Burns (Horrors! A Scotsman!) couldn't persuade him to see himself as others see him. Perhaps its the dog days of summer or the impending eclipse of the sun, but this, too, shall pass. Once again I'll be able to sympathize with those whose insecurities drive them past their limits of tolerance. My sense of humor will return to me and I'll laugh at myself with Jeff Foxworthy while you see yourself in Don Rickles' jokes. I'll listen to Louis Armstrong's horn and leave you with Lawrence Welk's accordion. I'll read Faulkner, you take Hemingway, please. Therefore, I hereby sentence myself to twenty lashes with a kudzu vine, but do I have to eat scrapple? Joyce

Hi I haven't read through every message on this subject, so hope I don't repeat... I think both Albion's Seed and Cracker Culture are excellent, each in their own way. As far as the level of education or literacy of our Scots-Irish ancestors, it was probably the same ratio as the English who came over. They were just as class-conscious upon arrival as the English, a result of English dominance in their previous homeland. Those of the higher "classes" or those educated by the priests or their mothers to read the Bible (which I tend to think was the first reason--and in the agrarian societies, the only reason--they were taught to read) were the ones counted on to keep records. I, for one, was faced with having to change my attitude about my own Scots-Irish ancestors. From a cousin, I received a photocopy of a remembrance book that belonged to my ggg grandmother, b. 1805 in what had been Macon AL Terr., now Grove Hill, Clarke Co. , who may have been half Choctaw and the rest probably Irish. She wrote beautifully as well as composing poetry. Other relatives, her husband, siblings, etc., wrote in her remembrance book and seem to have an equal love for words and lovely handwriting. Prior to receipt of this copy, I had thought my relatives were simple illiterate farmers, "crackers" in the worst stereotypical sense. Well, they may have been crackers, but they could write! And I'm proud of them. And I can't honestly say whether they were in the majority or minority in that respect, in the place that they lived. Jan P. S. For those of you planning to purchase Cracker Culture, be ready for a serious read. There's a LOT of references and thorough examination of the culture. [email protected] wrote: > > Coming from a long line of Scottish and Scots-Irish on my father's side, I > have to say that I found much of what David Hackett Fischer said to be right > on the money, and I wasn't offended by it at all. I thought his > characterization of the Scottish and Scots-Irish people of the Carolinas was, > in broad strokes, quite accurate, and certainly explained to me much of what > I grew up taking for granted. It also gave me plenty of basis for > understanding how my husband's New England forebears came at the world from a > very different angle. I didn't find Fischer's views a "put-down" of the > Scots and Scots-Irish at all, though I'm sure the values they held might have > been considered inferior by those from the other folkways discussed who > didn't share them. > > Fischer's scholarship seems to be quite thorough, and while exception can > always be taken, his discussion of the four folkways is, I think, really > enlightening and was a huge undertaking. > > His conclusions about the folkways and values of the people who settled the > Carolinas, in particular, are further substantiated by a book by Grady > McWhiney called CRACKER CULTURE, which is available through several online > booksellers, some of which have reviews posted. The reviews, with some > qualification, further substantiate Fischer's and McWhiney's contentions. I > would recommend you check this book out so you can see that Fischer is not > alone in his understanding of the Scots-Irish/Scottish/Borderer or generally > Celtic cultural influence on the area. > > Barbara > > ==== Southern-Trails Mailing List ==== > Please remember that real people read the messages you post. > Got a problem? Got a gripe? Don't take it to the list! > Send me a message, and I'll try to take care of it: > mailto:[email protected]

Coming from a long line of Scottish and Scots-Irish on my father's side, I have to say that I found much of what David Hackett Fischer said to be right on the money, and I wasn't offended by it at all. I thought his characterization of the Scottish and Scots-Irish people of the Carolinas was, in broad strokes, quite accurate, and certainly explained to me much of what I grew up taking for granted. It also gave me plenty of basis for understanding how my husband's New England forebears came at the world from a very different angle. I didn't find Fischer's views a "put-down" of the Scots and Scots-Irish at all, though I'm sure the values they held might have been considered inferior by those from the other folkways discussed who didn't share them. Fischer's scholarship seems to be quite thorough, and while exception can always be taken, his discussion of the four folkways is, I think, really enlightening and was a huge undertaking. His conclusions about the folkways and values of the people who settled the Carolinas, in particular, are further substantiated by a book by Grady McWhiney called CRACKER CULTURE, which is available through several online booksellers, some of which have reviews posted. The reviews, with some qualification, further substantiate Fischer's and McWhiney's contentions. I would recommend you check this book out so you can see that Fischer is not alone in his understanding of the Scots-Irish/Scottish/Borderer or generally Celtic cultural influence on the area. Barbara

At 03:37 PM 8/7/99 EDT, you wrote: >Hi, > >I am new to the list and have a question about three things. > >First I was wondering why my one Brinley family as far as I can tell were in >Orange County NC from 1780 to 1820? Then they moved to Carroll County >Tennessee. Did a lot of people move from NC to Tennessee.? > >Later this family moved around 1860 in Carroll County Tennessee to Hempstead >County Arkansas? In the 1900's they moved to McCurtain County OK. Did they >move for jobs or what? and how did they move was it by wagon train? > >Thanks > >tawsha Tawsha, what you mention is a very common movement from NC, to TN, AR, OK. Carroll and Benton Co TN ca 1830 or so was the place people from NC went. they seem to have mostly been small farmers, without slaves usually. 1820 they would have gone somewhere else in TN - and many did. I am not sure the exact date Carroll was open but think it was more in the 1830s. it also seems that many of them traveled from NC to TN in groups who had family connections, but also church connections. Or it least that seems to be so with my family. I think they moved because the land was very good for farming. also, many young single men in 1850s came into the area. Quite a few were new immigrants from Ireland. They were there to build the railroads. You can just follow them across TN. I think 1857 or so Carroll Co TN saw new towns, new merchants, etc. springing up because of the railroad. But 1830 it was NC people coming because of the good farm land. Maybe something had happened in NC to make them move, but not sure what it was. If you look at these names you will usually find them in 1704 NC tax list so they were in NC a long time, just always moving north/west from the coast. many of these people, in the area where Benton and Carroll Co TN meet, also ended up joining the Union army when the war began. As I said, they seem to have been families long in NC, made move 1830s to TN, and had farms but no slaves. They were not Quakers, but did form church groups. I am interested about the move 1860, that would say that perhaps your group was moving at that time because their neighbors were taking a different side from them in the war. This area of TN was very divided, as was eastern TN, NW Arkansas, KY, Maryland, parts of VA which would become West VA, MO, Kansas, etc. It was a time when people seemed to try to move where they felt safe with their neighbors chosing the same side in the war. Carroll and Benton co TN had a lot of Union people, but it is also where Nathan Bedford Forrest was located. So a very difficult area 1860-1865. Since he captured many of the local Union men and sent them to Andersonville, after 1865 it was still unsettled. My family group moved in 1870s from there in a wagon train of former Union people to NW Arkansas. 1865-1870 was time when Union army was in control of area, reconstruction, but after that, it was not a good place for former Union people to live. Also, with so many of them being survivors of Andersonville, Fort Pillow, etc. I guess it was best to move on. NW Arkansas - as most of the south - was a mess. No church, school, store, ferry, etc. left. (Bushwackers had run thru the area). Everything had to be rebuilt. But.....the land was good if lots of bluffs, etc. Also, there were sections where there had also been Union men, but others with CSA. For some reason, sections of NW AR seemed to just try to forget which side a man had fought on and get on with their lives. Heber Springs, Arkansas began what was called Old Soldiers Reunion. It was where men from both sides came together for speechs, food, and to share brotherhood. By the 1960s when I was a child and attended, it was more of a carnival, but a home coming for all the young families who had left the area after WWII to find work and lives elsewhere. They would come back to visit in August, and attend the Reunion as it was called then. 1900s move to OK....again, from 1880 to WWI every generation some of the newly married young people with their elder relatives in tow would take off for either Texas or Oklahoma to find land. There just was not enough available land for everyone, so some would leave. That is why in the grave yards in OK you will find so many who had been born in Arkansas. After WWII, most of the young men who came home did not stay long. They married, then left for Illinois, California, anywhere they could find employment. Only the elderly and a few young ones were left. They also often traveled in family groups. I love to hear the stories about my family's move to Illinois and Michigan, with my parents, my father's brother, his sister and their families. They traveled in a car caravan - so much like their ancestors who had traveled across the south in wagons. mary

In a message dated 08/07/1999 10:51:23 AM Central Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Many of these were known as Classical Schools, meaning that they taught Latin > > and Greek. One has to but read the names of Southern cities to see the influence of these schools. Sparta, Carthage, Memphis, Athens, and Lebanon are just a few here in Tennessee. Read the inventories of early merchants. You will find large orders for books, and transportation was too difficult and expensive to waste space on anything but the most popular merchandise. Notice the names given to their children. Some are from such obscure Bible and literary references that they had to be avid readers to have found those names. Joyce

In a message dated 08/07/1999 9:01:34 AM Central Daylight Time, W5DRP writes: > So I wonder if you (or others) could send me some citations to the critics' > writings so that I may read them. Who knows? I may change my lofty opinion! > Thanks in advance! I wish I could recall because, as you know, few things are as satisfying as to find an authority whose opinion agrees with one's own. Unfortunately, that author wasn't as emphatic in voicing his opinion as Fisher was in expounding on his, and the title and author didn't stick in my mind like "Albion's Seed" stuck in my craw. "Albion's Seed" came highly recommended. However, I expect a certain amount of objectivity in any work of non-fiction, but Fisher made no attempt to hide his prejudices. This author was mean spirited in his condemnation of a people and a region. Odd that the German settlers of the mid-Atlantic states could have made such a worthy contribution to the country, but the large number of them who came into the Carolinas and points west were incapable of any influence whatsoever. Odd that the English settlers of New England laid the foundation for our freedoms while banishing or burning those who worshipped differently, while those in Virginia and the Carolinas and most especially those in Maryland were hardly worthy of mention. David Hackett Fisher is not alone in putting forth his personal prejudices and calling it history. Its been done since the beginning of time and no doubt will continue as long as there are victors and vanquished. However, Fisher, in his acerbity, is almost in a class to himself. Careful historians try to put aside their opinions. By the time I finished reading "Albion's Seed" it seemed to me that it was much more important to Fisher that he convince me that the Scots-Irish were a slovenly, ungovernable horde than it was for him to educate me on these waves of migration. Long before the final page, I had become bored with David Hackett Fisher's petulance. I would shorten his middle name to one syllable. Joyce

Hi, I am new to the list and have a question about three things. First I was wondering why my one Brinley family as far as I can tell were in Orange County NC from 1780 to 1820? Then they moved to Carroll County Tennessee. Did a lot of people move from NC to Tennessee.? Later this family moved around 1860 in Carroll County Tennessee to Hempstead County Arkansas? In the 1900's they moved to McCurtain County OK. Did they move for jobs or what? and how did they move was it by wagon train? Thanks tawsha

In a message dated 8/6/99 11:22:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > you have a higher opinion of David Hackett Fisher and "Albion's Seed" > than I do. And more learned people than I have voiced their own > disagreement > with him. Hi Joyce! It's interesting to learn from you that some critics don't like Fischer's work, in spite of the fact that I think his book is great. But I am certainly not wedded to my views, and I would like to educate myself on this controversy. So I wonder if you (or others) could send me some citations to the critics' writings so that I may read them. Who knows? I may change my lofty opinion! Thanks in advance! Regards, Jim Brown ([email protected])

I am new to the list and it may be that everyone on this list has the following sites, but they have been very helpful to me. Marlene > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~south1/trails1.htm > >The Avery Trace > >This site describes the Avery Trace, also known as the North Carolina Road, >which went from NC through north TN to the Cumberland settlements. There is >a good description of it and a link to a nice map of the old road. > >http://www.wwns.com/clay/tourism/avery/avery.html > >The Great Warrior Path from East Tennessee to Southwest Virginia > >A nice description of this road, which some of the earliest settlers >used. > >http://www.tngenweb.usit.com/warpath.htm > >Transportation in Early Middle Tennessee > >This article mentions a number of the early roads and something about the >early settlement of the area. > >http://www.tngenweb.usit.com/sumner/mdtntran.htm > >Ohio Migration Routes: > >This site is a map site of several of the land migration routes >through Ohio...the northern ones are a little north for most of our >southern migrations, but the southern ones were often used by people going >into KY and places south... > >http://www.infinet.com/~dzimmerm/Gwen/migration.htm > >Migration Routes from Pennsylvania to Virginia > >This site seems to be a collection of messages from a mail list >discussing ancestral movements, mainly of Palantine Germans, but also Scots >Irish...it discusses both the How and Why their folks >moved on. > >http://www.indwes.edu/Faculty/bcupp/genes/migrate.htm > >Old Roads in North Arkansas > >This is an article about early roads in north Arkansas, If you have >ancestors who traveled this way, check it out. > >http://idt.net/~jfultz19/military.htm > > > > >

In a message dated 8/5/99 5:57:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Over half my direct ancestors are Scotish or Scot/Irish. I cannot recall any of them that could not read or write. >> I agree with Harold. My family research and family tradition, indicate that the early Scottish, Scot/Irish and German settlers believed in education, establishing many small academies and colleges as they settled in the South. Many of these were known as Classical Schools, meaning that they taught Latin and Greek. Many of these families who lived in isolated areas still sent their sons and daughters away to school. Many times this education was interrupted by the Civil War, but in my experience continued after the war. Reading was very important to the early these early settlers, who often had books that they had brought with them from their native countries. For many of these families, one of these was their Family Bible. Debby

--part1_bd68274e.24dd1ef4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_bd68274e.24dd1ef4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: [email protected] From: [email protected] Full-name: TexasVRS2 Message-ID: <[email protected]> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:31:06 EDT Subject: Southern Migrations to TX To: [email protected] (Ruth A McVey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 This is from a book I have on Reilly Springs, TX which is in Hopkins Co. Alot of my family came from that area. In the fall of 1866 John Porter McKay(1830-1883) and his wife Louis Ruth Foster (1832-1898) sold their land in the Laurel Hill area of Neshoba Co., MS (before this they had lived in Union Co., South Carolina) to his brother James, packed their belongings and 3 sons: Albert(1855-1913), William "Willie" Alexander (1858-1941) and Thomas (1866-1870) and joined a wagon train of about one hundred people heading for Texas. The wagon train was made up of relatives and neighbors most from the Laurel Hill area and members of the Old Caroline Presbyterian Church and had attended school together, also. Some of the men had served together in the Confederate Army in one of two companies in the Laurel Hill comm. One was Williams Co., Miss. Calvary, named for its founder Capt. W. G. Williams, and the other was the Scotland Guard--for the reason that the community was populated mainly by descendants of Scottish immigrants who had settled in North Carolina. Most were related by blood or marriage. The wagon train was made up from many families, including McKay, McDonald, Foster, Stribling, Foster (formerly of Virginia > SC), Gambling, McMillian, Milner, Wallace, Hurley( NC>TN>MS>TX), Ledbetters, and many others. They travelled through Louisiana into Arkansas, but found the land too mountainous for sucessful farming but the further north they went the easier the stream crossings were, then into Texas. First to the area of Whitewright in Grayson Co., but failed to find enough water to farm, then came to the Reilly Springs area and settled. >From the History of Reilly Springs 1850-1977 by Ellie Williams Swindell Valencia Smotherman Smotherman/Smitherman/Smithyman,~Reid/Reed~Orms/Orme~Milner~Phillips~ Wallace~Kite~BETINGFIELD please!~Carter~Clark/Clarke ~Ford~Eads~Flowers~Thomas~Harrison~ relatedfamilies~~~Adkins~Attaway~Miller~Walker~Dunnavant~Connor~Hurley ~Stunkard~Ledbetter~Thomas~Jackson~Renfro~Barker.......and it keeps going & going & going!!! --part1_bd68274e.24dd1ef4_boundary--

At 02:57 PM 8/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone know the migration route from Tennessee (also eastern part) to >Arkansas to Hopkins Co., TX early 1800's. > >E Z Campbell from TN b ca 1803 and wife Charlotte from eastern TN b ca >1810. Their children were born in AR starting around 1828. > >Ruth > 1828......most settlers from TN were going to Independence Co AR - much larger than it is today. In other words, they were using rivers so they settled western bank of Mississippi and spread west from there. Campbell family early settlers of Searcy Co Arkansas - same family? there is supposed to be a Campbell book. Check with a great researcher in that area - James Johnston at [email protected] Look at eastern TN.....if they wanted to go to northern AL, they used Tennessee river. they might also have used it to get to Ohio River. There was a good trail to Nashville, where they would pick up the Cumberland River which also went into Ohio not far from where the TN River emptied in. Or they sometimes went thru Cumberland Gap and picked up the Cumberland River, traveling back to Nashville, then back north to Ohio. Once on the Ohio, it goes into Mississippi River. the very earliest route was this. Later, there were land routes. Also realize that Nashville and Knoxville Tennessee where really the center of all the land trails and river routes. Nashville - you could pick up the Natchez Trace. You could go either way, south or north into KY, to Ohio and PA. There was a trail from near Greensburg PA, on the river to KY, from Paris KY down to Nashville. From Nashville on Natchez Trace to Natchez Mississippi, from there to New Orleans. they usually took the river when going from east or north to New Orleans, then took land routes when going back home. Unless they had money for steam boat travel, but that was later. Anyway the route around 1820s to AR from eastern TN was usually pretty much by river, till they got to Arkansas, then overland. And of course, Arkansas was not a state till I think 1834 or so, so it Missouri Territory in early records. Since your family was in AR in 1828 or before, you might want to check the Territorial papers on them. I was surprized to find my family there in late 1820s, I did not realize some of them had arrived so early. I tell you, after War of 1812....which ended in early 1815, those guys from eastern TN and middle TN just went everywhere. Seems 1815-1818 or so they all went into Alabama - many had seen the land when they marched with Jackson to Mobile Bay. Then in mid 1820s, the area of Arkansas had a real draw, but NW part was not open for white settlement till 1834. So before 1834 you find them in Independence or that area. Some were around Ft Smith, especially if on spouse was part Native American. Remember, Jackson was after the Indians to move them in 1830s. Part of the Trail of Tears went right thru Arkansas. but in 1820s there were a lot of families out of TN with one spouse part Indian going to AR. Expecially if they were Choctaw or something other than Cherokee. there was a land trail across Arkansas - from the north-east corner to kind of the south-western corner - that a lot during that 1820 time used going from eastern TN to Texas. Again, think of the rivers in getting to some parts of Texas or LA from eastern TN. At one point, in eastern TN seemed everyone was going to Texas. Every year new routes, short cuts, etc. would be found. Railroads did not go thru middle TN till around 1850s I think, or in much of the south. So I would say river route from TN to AR in 1820s, they stayed there a while, then used the land route to continue to Texas. Mary Turney miller [email protected]

At 07:45 PM 8/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >My two cents worth (not worth any more!). I had Keowns who came to Abbeville area >around 1770, and married into Youngs who were also from Ireland, (and connected to >Keowns in the old country)..as were the McCurdy's....and I am failrly sure they >all came directly to Charleston from the old country. By the turn of the century >they all went to the Bowling Green Area of Ky, later down into Tn, Ala. I find >others with the same names, and would almost swear they were related, but they >came through Pa-Va. Another name was McDonald. My Matthew PICKENS Young married >Martha (Patsy) McDonald in Ky. I know he was SC but can't figure out which group >of McDonalds were hers. >But there were some who came directly into SC from Ireland. Jean > first, I am not a Young. I have gathered bits of info on that surname because I come across it so often in connection with my families. In 1840 Giles township, Van Buren Co Arkansas census - I have been amazed at some of the first settlers, how they connect together. Young is one of those families. A Young was in Franklin Co VA ca 1790s, along with my Potter family, also Owen, Estes, Renfro, etc. These same names are in Arkansas together in 1840. I do not know where they went between 1790 and 1840 - perhaps Tennessee. Also, there is a Young family on early frontier of what would become eastern TN. They seem to be coming out of Shenandoah Valley of Va and maybe PA before that. Possibly they were a German family. Remember, many of those German speaking people their names were changed to more English names. I have not been able to find a connection between the two groups, but there could be. I assumed that Young was such a common name, there were more than one family. the ones in Franklin Co Va might have gone into North Carolina. I know that some of the ones in eastern TN (early times it was Washington Co VA, then NC), many seem to have gone into Kentucky and spread west from there. I have found that the two different groups of Potter, one group going to KY and then Illinois and MO, another thru TN to Arkansas.....they were all the same family before Rev War in VA. the same with Owen and Estes. Some went one way, some the other. Some of the Young in Shenandoah Valley of VA I have been told were Irish, but I swear I think some were German speaking. No proof, but I think there were more than one family. Isn't this fun? Here is something for you..... I will not give all of it now, but I have the confession of a John Young 1792 - Winchester, Va.....who was executed near Winchester, VA 19 Oct 1792 for horsestealing.. I John Young, was born in Baltimore county, Maryland; my father occupied a small farm. He died when I was about 20 and my mother when I was about 16 years of age. ...... he wrote a letter to his wife and sons. Seems he left Maryland for Virginia, mentions Berkeley county, working for Jarvis Shirley, moved to a place adjoining the late General Lee's plantation, went to Roane County, NC, lived on the river ADKIN, . then went near Hancock - town Maryland, sent to Fredericktown goal, escaped and moved his family to Orange county, Virginia. In his 4th year there, again got in with a bad group and began stealing horses. Mentions crossing Shenandoah river with the law after him, stole a horse here and there trying to get away, one from a Mr Davis of Orange, later one from Henry Miller of Berkeley county, and one from a Mr. Kendrick on Shenandoah river. Sold both those horses in Petersburg, then he was caught and finally executed in Winchester, Va. (how this man got around). Then this..... Shenandoah Counmty Base Born Children, Orphans & Poor William Young, orphan of Edwin Young, bound to Joseph B Billings, trade of clock and watchmaker William Young, bound to Jacob Fry, trade of clock making, bounding to Joseph B Billings resinded.... Anyway, you are correct that there were several different groups with Young surname. I have also seen a lot of Cowen surname, various spellings in early Shen. Valley of VA - is that similar to Keowns? Also, one more point. Does Campbell sound Scottish? Well, there is a Campbel family in early records who was German speaking, and eventually some of them began to spell it Campbell - so you cannot always tell by the way the name ended up exactly where they came from. Mary [email protected]

Anyone know the migration route from Tennessee (also eastern part) to Arkansas to Hopkins Co., TX early 1800's. E Z Campbell from TN b ca 1803 and wife Charlotte from eastern TN b ca 1810. Their children were born in AR starting around 1828. Ruth

I have found the following book useful: James G. Leyburn, The Scotch-Irish, A Social History, University of North Carolina Press, 1962. Nora Tocus