Hi Andrew I have read with interest and amusement, your last couple of emails, and for someone who has not lived in South Africa for a long time you have summed up nicely the problems we have with State and to a great extent Municipal offices. Mainly jobs for pals once the old guard and expertise has been driven out or retired! I think however you may have become a little confused! You need to separate in your mind the official and Church records. As Denise and others have said there is a closed period of 100 years for official birth records, 20 years for marriage & death records. As Denise has said, we are lucky in KZN as "our" official Natal registers (Colonial Secretary/Dept. of Interior/Dept. of Home Affairs) up to about 1950/1989 depending on the Magisterial district are housed in the Pietermaritzburg Repository. Note however that for Marriages this only includes marriages carried out by a Magistrate NOT Church marriages. Access to the Birth Registers is restricted to over 100 years BUT if you have written permission from a descendant they will allow more recent access! I believe that we are the only Province which has these official Registers housed in their local Repository. As far as Church Registers (baptisms, marriages and burials) are concerned that is a completely different matter and access to them depends very much on the policy of the various religions and where the Registers are stored. All the best Adrian Durban -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger via Sent: 17 April 2015 09:33 AM To: Denise Igesund via Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Ha! Bart Simon's latest Denise, it looks as though I was right (in a previous sequence which I have since deleted) about the political correctness bit. The notion, that anyone should be able to keep secret for 100 years such a harmless piece of information as the fact that he or she was baptised on a particular date into a particular denomination, is ludicrous. It is could perhaps be remotely embarrassing if the baptism concerned is of an adult, as an adult has some say in the matter, but Mugabe's certainly was not such, as an RC he would have been baptised as soon as possible because of the RC belief that unbaptised people would infallibly go to Hell, which was roundly castigated by C S Lewis among others. Certainly the infamous Mugabe had no compunction, when asked as a courtesy to open the World Council of Churches meeting in Harare, in sounding off about the infamies of the Christian Churches and in particular the Roman Catholic Church; Mandela, on the other hand spoke, gently but firmly, and pointed out that most of those present who had a decent education, including Mugabe and himself, owed an incalculable debt to the Church missions who provided it when the Governments concerned were not interested in doing so. He received a rousing cheer from all present, whereas Mugabe's outburst had been received in stunned silence. My wife happened to be present during this exchange, along with my youngest brother, a Presbyterian Minister in South Africa (now retired); both were of course fully conscious of the fact that my father and his was a Presbyterian Minister of some repute, who had also been a House Warden at Fort Hare, and had read Greats at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, followed by Divinity in Edinburgh. His sojourn at UCT, on the strength of which he got a privileged chance at the Rhodes Scholarship, was possible partly because of his own efforts and partly his parents' sacrifice, but also partly good luck as the pendulum of the criteria for entry had swung towards pure academic prowess and away from "all-round" excellence (meaning good at sport), where it was when our own egregious Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, gained his Rhodes Scholarship (also through attendance at a prestige school). He's rather thick but replete with cunning, and resembles Vladimir Putin and George Bush the Lesser in ma! king his muscles, bandy-legged cowboy gait and general cocky attitude his trademark attributes. (If Abbot were just a bit younger he would qualify for my son's name for such people: "Mamils": "Middle-Aged Men In Lycra", and has in fact been like that ever since he gained prominence in politics, only the acronym hadn't been invented then.) Such men have no shame, but a disturbingly large proportion of the public fall for it. Perhaps my outburst was ill-experssed in one respect, though: in the paragraph after point 2 I should have stayed with corruption, rather than fraud! Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 11/04/2014, at 5:43 PM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > Hear, hear! But there are two possible explanations: > > 1. Sheer boneheadedness manifested in a combination of idleness, > incompetence and fear of doing anything wrong, or > > 2. Corruption. > > No doubt these are also connected, as idleness can be overcome with sufficient incentive . . . In other words, incompetence breeds fraud. > > My wife sent money to Pretoria when the Consul-General's office in Sydney said it couldn't help her (because all such matters had been centralized) and never saw a thing for her money. As it happens, we were in Cape Town a little while after that, and sat in the Cape Town office (which I think was then just behind the City Hall), shifting up periodically in a sedentary version of the regular Airport snake-queue until we were called, and she then laid down the law to the hapless counter-clerk to such effect that he was cowed (or shamed) into giving us redress, even to the extent of not charging us the normal fee. But that was many years ago, I think around1992, and we found things progressively worse on successive visits, culminating last year in a refusal to sell me a railway ticket (apparently because I was past retirement age, and that conflicted with the quite different rules about non-residents!), and would not even sell me a full-fare one. So we jumped on the train! anyway and 'fessed up in the central station in town and paid for a return ticket for each of us. In another office, I forget whose, I was told that I couldn't enter into a non-resident transaction because I could not prove that I had ever emigrated from SA -- even though I proffered my Australian Passport as evidence. And this applied in spades to my wife who, for sentimental reasons, has retained her SA passport, but has a permanent residence visa-stamp in it from the Australian Immigration Department in it -- and has been on the electoral roll, and holds an Australian driver's licence, and has been a registered proprietor (jointly with me) of the real estate in which we live since 1963, which has all the hallmarks of permanence about it. > > If this story sounds garbled or just plain daft, that's because it is -- but it is true all the same. So don't get your hopes up! > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > On 11/04/2014, at 8:00 AM, Paxie Kelsey wrote: > >> >> I have been waiting for more than two years for one copy Helge and I >> think it's a big fraud system ... take the bucks and never deliver! >> Paxie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge >> Pretorius >> Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM >> To: SA List >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage >> certificates >> >> Dear Listers >> >> I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage >> certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from >> the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was >> in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck >> obtaining such records? >> I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person >> did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost >> impossible - their >> words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in >> the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). >> >> Kind regards >> Helge

Oh dear! I stand corrected. If I am wrong in any aspect of what I said, I apologise profusely: but I have to say I am none the wiser after your exposition; perhaps its a case of "Ag! Die ouderdom, die ouderdom!" (which was what my sainted Afrikaans grandmother and her generation used to say if she found she had muddled something). I don't remember anything specific; I was after all nearly nine years old when she died. But my mother continued the use of the expression, and so did her innumerable cousins, and I expect my surviving brothers still do to this day. I used to do Deceased Estate work way back in the late 1950s and up to mid-1961 when I left South Africa, and I fully understand how complicated such things are even in the then four Provinces; they were even worse in Australia with eight jurisdictions, and I shudder to think what they must be like in the US . . . They are also very complicated in the British Isles, with four: England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Eire. I also don't remember when it became compulsory in SA to report all births, deaths and marriages (at least of white people, though in some cases of non-white also) to a central registry, though I well remember my father, a Presbyterian Minister, wrestling with the paper-work on such occasions, and finding it irksome to have to state on every such document what was the race of the person and being legally responsible for verifying it. He felt that if he got it wrong, and the State came down on him, the Church would back him up and plead that the requirement was impossible to comply with given the difficulties it entailed and the artificial definition of race in the legislation; but he was prepared to be fined (and refuse to pay) if it came to that, with a view to shaming the Government. So I'm still not clear where the boundary lies, but still maintain that there is, or should be, nothing private about a happy event such as a birth. But we live in an increasingly mad world in which nothing surprises me any more; but it was startling to find the madness extending so far back. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 17/04/2015, at 7:38 PM, Milly & Adrian Rowe wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > I have read with interest and amusement, your last couple of emails, and for > someone who has not lived in South Africa for a long time you have summed up > nicely the problems we have with State and to a great extent Municipal > offices. Mainly jobs for pals once the old guard and expertise has been > driven out or retired! > > I think however you may have become a little confused! You need to separate > in your mind the official and Church records. As Denise and others have > said there is a closed period of 100 years for official birth records, 20 > years for marriage & death records. As Denise has said, we are lucky in KZN > as "our" official Natal registers (Colonial Secretary/Dept. of > Interior/Dept. of Home Affairs) up to about 1950/1989 depending on the > Magisterial district are housed in the Pietermaritzburg Repository. Note > however that for Marriages this only includes marriages carried out by a > Magistrate NOT Church marriages. Access to the Birth Registers is > restricted to over 100 years BUT if you have written permission from a > descendant they will allow more recent access! I believe that we are the > only Province which has these official Registers housed in their local > Repository. > > As far as Church Registers (baptisms, marriages and burials) are concerned > that is a completely different matter and access to them depends very much > on the policy of the various religions and where the Registers are stored. > > All the best > > Adrian > Durban > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger via > Sent: 17 April 2015 09:33 AM > To: Denise Igesund via > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates > > Ha! Bart Simon's latest > > Denise, it looks as though I was right (in a previous sequence which I have > since deleted) about the political correctness bit. The notion, that anyone > should be able to keep secret for 100 years such a harmless piece of > information as the fact that he or she was baptised on a particular date > into a particular denomination, is ludicrous. It is could perhaps be > remotely embarrassing if the baptism concerned is of an adult, as an adult > has some say in the matter, but Mugabe's certainly was not such, as an RC he > would have been baptised as soon as possible because of the RC belief that > unbaptised people would infallibly go to Hell, which was roundly castigated > by C S Lewis among others. > > Certainly the infamous Mugabe had no compunction, when asked as a courtesy > to open the World Council of Churches meeting in Harare, in sounding off > about the infamies of the Christian Churches and in particular the Roman > Catholic Church; Mandela, on the other hand spoke, gently but firmly, and > pointed out that most of those present who had a decent education, including > Mugabe and himself, owed an incalculable debt to the Church missions who > provided it when the Governments concerned were not interested in doing so. > He received a rousing cheer from all present, whereas Mugabe's outburst had > been received in stunned silence. > > My wife happened to be present during this exchange, along with my youngest > brother, a Presbyterian Minister in South Africa (now retired); both were of > course fully conscious of the fact that my father and his was a Presbyterian > Minister of some repute, who had also been a House Warden at Fort Hare, and > had read Greats at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, followed by Divinity in > Edinburgh. His sojourn at UCT, on the strength of which he got a privileged > chance at the Rhodes Scholarship, was possible partly because of his own > efforts and partly his parents' sacrifice, but also partly good luck as the > pendulum of the criteria for entry had swung towards pure academic prowess > and away from "all-round" excellence (meaning good at sport), where it was > when our own egregious Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, gained his Rhodes > Scholarship (also through attendance at a prestige school). He's rather > thick but replete with cunning, and resembles Vladimir Putin and George Bush > the Lesser in ma! > king his muscles, bandy-legged cowboy gait and general cocky attitude his > trademark attributes. (If Abbot were just a bit younger he would qualify > for my son's name for such people: "Mamils": "Middle-Aged Men In Lycra", and > has in fact been like that ever since he gained prominence in politics, only > the acronym hadn't been invented then.) Such men have no shame, but a > disturbingly large proportion of the public fall for it. > > Perhaps my outburst was ill-experssed in one respect, though: in the > paragraph after point 2 I should have stayed with corruption, rather than > fraud! > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > On 11/04/2014, at 5:43 PM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > >> Hear, hear! But there are two possible explanations: >> >> 1. Sheer boneheadedness manifested in a combination of idleness, >> incompetence and fear of doing anything wrong, or >> >> 2. Corruption. >> >> No doubt these are also connected, as idleness can be overcome with > sufficient incentive . . . In other words, incompetence breeds fraud. >> >> My wife sent money to Pretoria when the Consul-General's office in Sydney > said it couldn't help her (because all such matters had been centralized) > and never saw a thing for her money. As it happens, we were in Cape Town a > little while after that, and sat in the Cape Town office (which I think was > then just behind the City Hall), shifting up periodically in a sedentary > version of the regular Airport snake-queue until we were called, and she > then laid down the law to the hapless counter-clerk to such effect that he > was cowed (or shamed) into giving us redress, even to the extent of not > charging us the normal fee. But that was many years ago, I think > around1992, and we found things progressively worse on successive visits, > culminating last year in a refusal to sell me a railway ticket (apparently > because I was past retirement age, and that conflicted with the quite > different rules about non-residents!), and would not even sell me a > full-fare one. So we jumped on the train! > anyway and 'fessed up in the central station in town and paid for a return > ticket for each of us. In another office, I forget whose, I was told that I > couldn't enter into a non-resident transaction because I could not prove > that I had ever emigrated from SA -- even though I proffered my Australian > Passport as evidence. And this applied in spades to my wife who, for > sentimental reasons, has retained her SA passport, but has a permanent > residence visa-stamp in it from the Australian Immigration Department in it > -- and has been on the electoral roll, and holds an Australian driver's > licence, and has been a registered proprietor (jointly with me) of the real > estate in which we live since 1963, which has all the hallmarks of > permanence about it. >> >> If this story sounds garbled or just plain daft, that's because it is -- > but it is true all the same. So don't get your hopes up! >> >> Andrew Rodger >> rodgera@audioio.com >> >> >> On 11/04/2014, at 8:00 AM, Paxie Kelsey wrote: >> >>> >>> I have been waiting for more than two years for one copy Helge and I >>> think it's a big fraud system ... take the bucks and never deliver! >>> Paxie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge >>> Pretorius >>> Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM >>> To: SA List >>> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage >>> certificates >>> >>> Dear Listers >>> >>> I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage >>> certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from >>> the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was >>> in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck >>> obtaining such records? >>> I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person >>> did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost >>> impossible - their >>> words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in >>> the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Helge >