Dear Nivard Many thanks for your troubles and the recommendation to look in Crockfords or the clerical directory (hadn't heard of these before). In response to your queries: I am embarrassed to say that I do not have a marriage certificate for Frederick Harris and Florence Katherine Louisa Francis ­ in fact, now that the matter has been raised, I can't track down where I got that date from! I am also not able to supply you with a page reference from Scotland's People. The information that I received from a search very kindly undertaken by Emma Maxwell was "We¹ve had a wee look and we can say that the Cecil/Cecilia Duncan you found living in Langholm in the 1851 census was still in the UK in 1901. This means that if the family record you have is correct (stating that Cecilia moved to Queenstown in South Africa in 1885) this cannot be your Cecilia either. " The only additional piece of (anecdotal) information that I can add ­ having revisited all of the sources of my information ­ is that Florence Katherine Louisa Frances may have been born in Nelson, Lancashire in about September 1878/9 (this info was passed on verbally from my grandmother to my mother with no documentary evidence supporting it). In fact, if it wasn't for the existence of her gravestone giving her name and date of death, I would almost be inclined to think that she was a figment of someone's imagination! Once again, many thanks for your suggestions and for searching your resources. Kind regards Megan From: <south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com> on behalf of Nivard Ovington via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, 26 June 2015 12:48 To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] FW: Cecelia Margaret Frances (nee Duncan) and Florence Katherine Louise Frances Having cast around I have nothing firm for you I thought I was onto something with a family in Hull Father John, mother Lucy , James, George & a Florence as children But they are still in the UK in 1911 and Florence married a LAKE so not them after all Does not the 1900 marriage cert record the fathers name and occupation? For the FRANCIS/FRANCES clergyman, have you checked through Crockfords or the Clerical directory for any in Lancashire of the right period? Where did scotlandspeople find her in 1901 in England? do you have the page reference as I cannot locate her Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/06/2015 08:22, Megan Hudson via wrote: > Dear Listers > > I am genetically-challenged by my great-great-grandmother, Cecilia/Cecelia > Margaret Frances/Francis (nee Duncan). > > What I have unearthed to date is the following: > > Birth year: 1847 in either England or Scotland. (she was described as a > "broad scot") > Date of death: unknown, but may have been in South Africa either in the > Eastern Cape or in Durban > Siblings: George Duncan, James Duncan > Father: first name unknown but said to be "of private means". Surname > Duncan > Mother: called "Lucy" but this may have been a nickname. Maiden name > unknown but also said to have been "of private means". Lucy came out to ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Megan I suspect your best course of action is to find that marriage if you can, then the fathers of each party will be known and with their occupations should help get you further back with more confidence In your tree on Ancestry you have Florence's birth date as 27th July 1878, is that from her gravestone/death cert ? Of course that could be faulty information from the informant but in my experience whilst the year might be a year of so out the date when stated is usually correct I found no births for a Florence Katherine FRANC*S anywhere in Eng/Wales 1876 to 1880 If born in Nelson the birth should be registered in the Burnley registration district Only four FRANC*S births registered in Burnley reg dist 1876 to 1880 Births Dec 1878 Francis Minnie Burnley 8e 298 Born Colne with parents John & Marg in 1881 Colne Births Mar 1879 Francis Ernest James Burnley 8e 257 Births Jun 1879 Francis William Burnley 8e 226 Born Burnley with parents William & Sarah H in Habergham Eaves Lancs 1881 Births Sep 1880 FRANCIS Ann Burnley 8e 286 Only one FRANC*S death reg in Burnley 1876 to 1880 Deaths Jun 1880 Frances John 42 Burnley 8e 160 No marriage found between a FRANC*S & a DUNCAN anywhere in England, Wales or Scotland 1863 to 1880 Ancestry have some Crockfords, relevant to your search 1874 & 1885, checked for any FRANC*S with a Lancashire connection, I checked through but none appeared to fit the bill, however Crockfords was published annually and there may be some FRANC*S in the intervening issues Another ploy you might like to try, is to order a birth certificate for your Florence Katherine FRANCIS b1878 If you order online with no GRO index reference, it gives the option of checking points, you might say mother surnamed DUNCAN, I would add to much as you may stop them issuing the very cert you want You pay for a standard certificate, if they find a match you get the certificate, if they don't you get a refund Only in the highly unlikely event of there being two matching certs would there be a problem My guess is they wouldn't find one but its worth trying Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/06/2015 15:36, Megan Hudson wrote: > Dear Nivard > > Many thanks for your troubles and the recommendation to look in > Crockfords or the clerical directory (hadn't heard of these before). In > response to your queries: > > I am embarrassed to say that I do not have a marriage certificate for > Frederick Harris and Florence Katherine Louisa Francis – in fact, now > that the matter has been raised, I can't track down where I got that > date from! > > I am also not able to supply you with a page reference from Scotland's > People. The information that I received from a search very kindly > undertaken by Emma Maxwell was "We’ve had a wee look and we can say that > the Cecil/Cecilia Duncan you found living in Langholm in the 1851 census > was still in the UK in 1901. This means that if the family record you > have is correct (stating that Cecilia moved to Queenstown in South > Africa in 1885) this cannot be your Cecilia either. " > > The only additional piece of (anecdotal) information that I can add – > having revisited all of the sources of my information – is that Florence > Katherine Louisa Frances may have been born in Nelson, Lancashire in > about September 1878/9 (this info was passed on verbally from my > grandmother to my mother with no documentary evidence supporting it). > In fact, if it wasn't for the existence of her gravestone giving her > name and date of death, I would almost be inclined to think that she was > a figment of someone's imagination! > > Once again, many thanks for your suggestions and for searching your > resources. > > Kind regards > Megan

Dear Nivard This has been a wonderful tutorial in research from you, and I thank you so much ­ I never knew one could search "FRANC*S"! Again, I can't find the origin of the date of birth for F.K.L.!!! I will start with the birth certificate and marriage certificate routes. Many, many thanks once again for all your time and valued advice. Kind regards Megan Hudson From: Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com> Date: Friday, 26 June 2015 20:05 To: Megan Hudson <megan@business-zone.co.za>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] FW: Cecelia Margaret Frances (nee Duncan) and Florence Katherine Louise Frances Hi Megan I suspect your best course of action is to find that marriage if you can, then the fathers of each party will be known and with their occupations should help get you further back with more confidence In your tree on Ancestry you have Florence's birth date as 27th July 1878, is that from her gravestone/death cert ? Of course that could be faulty information from the informant but in my experience whilst the year might be a year of so out the date when stated is usually correct I found no births for a Florence Katherine FRANC*S anywhere in Eng/Wales 1876 to 1880 If born in Nelson the birth should be registered in the Burnley registration district Only four FRANC*S births registered in Burnley reg dist 1876 to 1880 Births Dec 1878 Francis Minnie Burnley 8e 298 Born Colne with parents John & Marg in 1881 Colne Births Mar 1879 Francis Ernest James Burnley 8e 257 Births Jun 1879 Francis William Burnley 8e 226 Born Burnley with parents William & Sarah H in Habergham Eaves Lancs 1881 Births Sep 1880 FRANCIS Ann Burnley 8e 286 Only one FRANC*S death reg in Burnley 1876 to 1880 Deaths Jun 1880 Frances John 42 Burnley 8e 160 No marriage found between a FRANC*S & a DUNCAN anywhere in England, Wales or Scotland 1863 to 1880 Ancestry have some Crockfords, relevant to your search 1874 & 1885, checked for any FRANC*S with a Lancashire connection, I checked through but none appeared to fit the bill, however Crockfords was published annually and there may be some FRANC*S in the intervening issues Another ploy you might like to try, is to order a birth certificate for your Florence Katherine FRANCIS b1878 If you order online with no GRO index reference, it gives the option of checking points, you might say mother surnamed DUNCAN, I would add to much as you may stop them issuing the very cert you want You pay for a standard certificate, if they find a match you get the certificate, if they don't you get a refund Only in the highly unlikely event of there being two matching certs would there be a problem My guess is they wouldn't find one but its worth trying Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/06/2015 15:36, Megan Hudson wrote: > Dear Nivard > > Many thanks for your troubles and the recommendation to look in > Crockfords or the clerical directory (hadn't heard of these before). In > response to your queries: > > I am embarrassed to say that I do not have a marriage certificate for > Frederick Harris and Florence Katherine Louisa Francis ­ in fact, now > that the matter has been raised, I can't track down where I got that > date from! > > I am also not able to supply you with a page reference from Scotland's > People. The information that I received from a search very kindly > undertaken by Emma Maxwell was "We¹ve had a wee look and we can say that > the Cecil/Cecilia Duncan you found living in Langholm in the 1851 census > was still in the UK in 1901. This means that if the family record you > have is correct (stating that Cecilia moved to Queenstown in South > Africa in 1885) this cannot be your Cecilia either. " > > The only additional piece of (anecdotal) information that I can add ­ > having revisited all of the sources of my information ­ is that Florence > Katherine Louisa Frances may have been born in Nelson, Lancashire in > about September 1878/9 (this info was passed on verbally from my > grandmother to my mother with no documentary evidence supporting it). > In fact, if it wasn't for the existence of her gravestone giving her > name and date of death, I would almost be inclined to think that she was > a figment of someone's imagination! > > Once again, many thanks for your suggestions and for searching your > resources. > > Kind regards > Megan

You may find your local LDS genealogical library has a copy of the Scottish parochial records. Terry -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Megan Hudson via Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 16:37 To: Nivard Ovington; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] FW: Cecelia Margaret Frances (nee Duncan) and Florence Katherine Louise Frances Dear Nivard Many thanks for your troubles and the recommendation to look in Crockfords or the clerical directory (hadn't heard of these before). In response to your queries: I am embarrassed to say that I do not have a marriage certificate for Frederick Harris and Florence Katherine Louisa Francis ­ in fact, now that the matter has been raised, I can't track down where I got that date from! I am also not able to supply you with a page reference from Scotland's People. The information that I received from a search very kindly undertaken by Emma Maxwell was "We¹ve had a wee look and we can say that the Cecil/Cecilia Duncan you found living in Langholm in the 1851 census was still in the UK in 1901. This means that if the family record you have is correct (stating that Cecilia moved to Queenstown in South Africa in 1885) this cannot be your Cecilia either. " The only additional piece of (anecdotal) information that I can add ­ having revisited all of the sources of my information ­ is that Florence Katherine Louisa Frances may have been born in Nelson, Lancashire in about September 1878/9 (this info was passed on verbally from my grandmother to my mother with no documentary evidence supporting it). In fact, if it wasn't for the existence of her gravestone giving her name and date of death, I would almost be inclined to think that she was a figment of someone's imagination! Once again, many thanks for your suggestions and for searching your resources. Kind regards Megan From: <south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com> on behalf of Nivard Ovington via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, 26 June 2015 12:48 To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] FW: Cecelia Margaret Frances (nee Duncan) and Florence Katherine Louise Frances Having cast around I have nothing firm for you I thought I was onto something with a family in Hull Father John, mother Lucy , James, George & a Florence as children But they are still in the UK in 1911 and Florence married a LAKE so not them after all Does not the 1900 marriage cert record the fathers name and occupation? For the FRANCIS/FRANCES clergyman, have you checked through Crockfords or the Clerical directory for any in Lancashire of the right period? Where did scotlandspeople find her in 1901 in England? do you have the page reference as I cannot locate her Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/06/2015 08:22, Megan Hudson via wrote: > Dear Listers > > I am genetically-challenged by my great-great-grandmother, > Cecilia/Cecelia Margaret Frances/Francis (nee Duncan). > > What I have unearthed to date is the following: > > Birth year: 1847 in either England or Scotland. (she was described as > a "broad scot") Date of death: unknown, but may have been in South > Africa either in the Eastern Cape or in Durban > Siblings: George Duncan, James Duncan > Father: first name unknown but said to be "of private means". > Surname Duncan > Mother: called "Lucy" but this may have been a nickname. Maiden name > unknown but also said to have been "of private means". Lucy came out > to ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _____ << ella for Spam Control >> has removed 1549 Spam messages and set aside 3748 Newsletters for me You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com