Richard, > Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. > You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of > Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). Yes, based on Hoge, but also on the name (Heinrich, not always Hendrik, and the lack of anything contrary in sources like SA Genealogies.) > does not mention her parents - Hoge is assuming, unless there > is some other evidence he does not quote. Her parents are also stated in my copy (1981)of de Villiers / Pama. In SA Genealogies 2 p. 431 (GERRITS) there is the baptism of b3 Anna Elizabeth = Kaapstad 18.10.1699. It gives her parents as: Casrar Gerrits van Nymegen + Jan. 1719 x Stellenbosch 3.5.1693 Elsje SPELDENBERG (Pyl) = Kaapstad 6.11.1679 d.v. Hendrik Speldenberg en Adriana Gabrielse v.d.K. > this is, of course, a secondary source. I would say tertiary, if that. A primary source is a record made close to the date of the event, for example, the date of birth on a birth certificate. A secondary source is a record made not close to the event, for example, a birth date on a death notice. Or, a birth or a death date on a gravestone. On this sort of scale SA Genealogies would qualify as gossip and hearsay which, in my book, is about correct. ;-) I have this sort of probabilistic view of genealogy. A baptism date in a church register is about 95%, a birth date in a baptism record is about 85%, a referenced entry in Hoge is about 50%, any entry in de Villiers / Pama is about 25%, SA Genealogies is about 15%, etc. Given that confidence scale, I am then quite prepared to quote from sources like SA Genealogies. If there is a "fact" in SA Genealogies that is not very important to me, I will quote it and move on. Richard Ball has a somewhat different philosophy, in his relentless quest for primary sources. I believe he explains that on his website, http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk > with our genealogical programs and gigantic hard disk and no shortage of space That is a two-edged sword. Errors are copied and propagate everywhere, and are impossible to correct. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:34:18 AM EST From: Richard Ball <richardonrootsweb@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk> To: Keith Meintjes <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany Hello Keith and Sonia, Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). KM> Hoge: "Personalia of the Germans at the Cape" KM> Quote: KM> WEYERS, HEINRICH, also called WEYER, HENDRIKS.- Epe. Arr. KM> 1702 as so., wagon-driver 1705, b. 1714. married 1.5.1718 Anna KM> Elisabeth Gerritsdogter, i.e. d. of Caspar Gerrits of Nimwegen KM> and Elsje Speldenberg, bapt. 18.10.1699. 3 children. KM> Died 5.8.1725. (GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172.) KM> Another daughter of W. seems to have been Adriana Weyers, KM> bapt. 29.9 .1748 at Stellenbosch as grown-up person, married KM> to Johann Martin Schwebler (q.v.) and Christoffel Heyske (q.v.). Place of birth is something which was usually recorded by the VOC and also usually appears in marriage registers of the Nederduits Gereformeerde Kerk (as it existed at the Cape in the VOC period). In this case the marriage which Hoge cites, which is in the Stellenbosch Church registers, gives his name as Wyer Hendrikz and his place of birth as 'Erpen' - no country mentioned. Incidentally, the marriage entry: 1718 1 Maij - Wyer Hendrikz van Epen jongman met Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdogter does not mention her parents - Hoge is assuming, unless there is some other evidence he does not quote. Hoge is generally reliable and quotes his sources, in this case: GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172 These cryptic references refer to: Generale Monsterrollen (VOC muster rolls) 1704-5, and presumably to the muster rolls of VOC employees. These usually state place of birth, although the country is seldom included. These particular muster rolls seem to have been published by the TEPC Project (Cape Town) but I do not have a copy - it would be interesting to see the exact entry. VC 56 (Cape Archives Verbatim Copies) is a transcript, listed as: Alphabetical list of persons appearing on the rolls of the letters of freedom issued at the Cape for the Chamber of Zeeland 1718-1791 G.R. nr 172 - refers to the of 1894 publication, compiled by G.M. Theal from the work of C.C. de Villiers, in three volumes, can be found in Adobe Acrobat pdf format on the University of Pretoria's web site: Geslacht-register der oude Kaapsche familien (Genealogies of old Cape families) - this is, of course, a secondary source. https://www.up.ac.za/dspace/simple-search?query=geslacht-register&submit=Go if there is any mention of Germany (or one of its constituent states) as being his birthplace (apart from just the town Epe) then it will be found in the first two references (primary references) above. It would be interesting to see if the country as well as the town is mentioned there. If so it would eliminate all doubts. When Hoge published his monumental study it was relatively easy to check the sources he quoted since in those days (1947) the Chief Archivist would reply to such requests, providing the answer in a typed letter. Nowadays, of course, it would be a much more expensive business. This is one of the reasons why we nowadays, with our genealogical programs and gigantic hard disk and no shortage of space, should record not only the source but also the text of our references, eliminating the need for the work to be done more than once. Charlie Els has written an interesting article about his ancestors which includes some mention of Hendrik Weyers / Weyer Hendrikz http://www.eggsa.org/articles/Els-Johan-Martin.html All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message