Sonia, I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means daughter of Gerrits. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger Sent: 12 November 2011 03:52 To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > I have another surname that is puzzling me. > > My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was > born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in > 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 > to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar > GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a > soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. > > Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or > Germany? > > Sonia > Toronto, Canada Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in the Netherlands. The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, it's just a little way off the A31. It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of the times you are talking about. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It means daughter of Gerrit, not Gerrits, the latter is again a patronymic and means son of. Therefore if she is really Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdochter, she can't be the child of a Caspar, because she would have been A E Casparsdochter. With zoon, or zn or s at the end it (male suffix) it can already be used as a fixed surname, but with dochter at the end - that was just not done. You must therefore look for a different father. Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "bruce" <bruce@unibind.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > Sonia, > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > daughter of Gerrits. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger > Sent: 12 November 2011 03:52 > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > > On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > >> I have another surname that is puzzling me. >> >> My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was >> born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in >> 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 >> to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar >> GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a >> soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. >> >> Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or >> Germany? >> >> Sonia >> Toronto, Canada > > Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in > the Netherlands. > > The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even > after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and > added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice > surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, > "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a > curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named > villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of > Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change > was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than > Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population > is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred > with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the > German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German > character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, > it's just a little way off the A31. > > It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, > only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it > was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the > French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main > phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, > more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was > squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking > countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing > side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the > granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, > Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further > dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). > > As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": > these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the > word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means > "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of > the times you are talking about. > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 16 Nov 2011, at 12:41 AM, bruce wrote: > Sonia, > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > daughter of Gerrits. I believe it is a name, just as Gerritseun would be a name, of the class of names known as "patronymics". They occur in the Scandinavian countries and in Wales, and of course all the Mac names in Scotland and Ireland and many of the O' names in Ireland are also patronymics. (But some O' names are indications of place of origin.) The word means "father's name" or "named for the father", and in societies that had not yet invented formal surnames they were one main way of distinguishing between different persons of the same given name in any one community; the other was occupational names such as Baker (and its variant Baxter), Thatcher, Fletcher, Mason, etc., and the rather nice Welsh version -- "Dai the Bread" is of course a baker, but as far as I know this has never found its way into formal naming. (And of course there were not so many given names current then, either, a majority being Biblical names in the Judaeo-Christian world.) Think of Andersson and Andersdottir in Swedish, Evans, Williams and Owens in Welsh and the names starting with Ben in Hebrew and Bin in Arabic. Many of these have also found their way into English/Scots, for example Anderson (where the second S has been lost) and its variant Henderson. In Arabic, occupational names seem to start with El or Al (the). The thing about occupational names is that persons bearing the same name are not necessarily related, except where the son took over the business in question. I have never heard of matronymics, though they may well exist in matriarchal societies. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

On 17 Nov 2011 at 10:14, Andrew Rodger wrote: > On 16 Nov 2011, at 12:41 AM, bruce wrote: > > > Sonia, > > > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > > daughter of Gerrits. > > I believe it is a name, just as Gerritseun would be a name, of the > class of names known as "patronymics". They occur in the > Scandinavian countries and in Wales, and of course all the Mac names > in Scotland and Ireland and many of the O' names in Ireland are also > patronymics. (But some O' names are indications of place of A South African example of a seurname that is both patronymic and locational is Janse van Rensburg and Janse van Vuuren originally both were Jans zoon > I have never heard of matronymics, though they may well exist in > matriarchal societies. An example in Southern Africa is Karl Johan Andersdotter, whose name was Anglicised to Charles John Andersson. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_John_Andersson -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525