Dear Francois Greeff, I was sorry to see that, in your long puff to boost subscriptions to one particular South African Genealogical organisation, which you sent to a number of the Rootsweb Mailing lists, you felt it necessary and desirable to denigrate and attempt to rubbish the Genealogical Society of South Africa (GSSA) and its eGGSA branch. It seems to me a pity that there is so much jealousy and exclusiveness within the South African genealogical community, of which your message is but one example, but this sort of thing does seem to obtain in most academic disciplines, I am sorry to say. Despite your negative criticism the Genealogical Society of South Africa and its branches, will, however, continue to provide what they can to promote and aid genealogical study in South Africa. Your selective quotes from the two web sites, conveniently ignored, the large amount of data and information on those web sites which is freely available to all researchers, members or not, without payment of any kind, the society does provide value for money. You wrote: TO SUM UP, FOR ABOUT R150 GSSA OFFERS MEMBERSHIP, FAMILIA AND ONE BRANCH JOURNAL OR NEWSLETTER AND YOU CAN BUY BOOKS AND CDS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE OTHER NEWSLETTERS AND JOURNALS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND PHOTOS OF DOCUMENTS IN SOME ARCHIVES, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE 1984 VOTERS’ ROLL, IF YOU PAID EXTRA.: but neglected to mention among the above the free Funeral Programs and Church Photographs, originally collected by the SAGenealogie email group and now maintained and daily increased by the GSSA on its web site: http://www.genza.org.za/biblio/ http://www.genza.org.za/bonus/main.php?g2_itemId=12 And as to eGGSA you wrote: eGSSA OFFERS VARIOUS UTTERLY VALUABLE TRANSCRIPTIONS, IMAGES OF GRAVESTONES ETC, BUT NOTHING ON THE SCALE OF ANCESTRY24. and the smaller scale of its provision presumably justifies your suggestion that people cease to enrol as members? If your aim as outlined in your plug for your favoured organisation is achieved, that is subscriptions to the GSSA to cease and be transferred to the organisation that you aim to promote, the only result would be that the two web sites http://www.genza.org.za and http://www.eggsa.org would cease to exist and the information they now provide be lost to all. I quote from the FAQ on membership: http://www.eggsa.org/FAQ-membership.htm#goodies your annual subscription to eGGSA will help to fund the web site which makes available a huge collection of genealogical materials freely available to all. Yours, Richard Ball Chair of the eGGSA branch of the GSSA

Dear Richard, At no point have I ever suggested or said that people should not subscribe to GSSA or to eGSSA, nor that they "cease to enrol as members", so kindly get your facts straight, and see to it that they remain unimpaired by your emotions. My own subscription is paid up. Lucas paid it for me when I did not have the money, but it was paid. Secondly, my statements about Ancestry24.co.za should be read in context. Trixie mentioned that GSSA is starting a passenger list when Ancestry24 compiled one "years ago". I replied in support, saying that holism and co-operation in South African Genealocical organization is sorely needed. (See original letter below) Some fool attacked me and said that I am so lucky to be able to pay for Ancestry24 in Pounds, while he is a poor pensioner, for whom R395 is a month's worth of food, which is why he prefers to stick with "FREE" services. I objected to his "poor me, lucky you" attitude and took the trouble to point out that GSSA is NOT a free service, but costs R150 pa (R180, someone said). My point was that nothing is free, and that R395 for Ancestry24 gave one more than ten times the information that GSSA did for R150. I also described what poor really is, in contrast to griping about not being able to afford luxuries - our hobbies and pastimes, computers, telephones, broadband, electricity, vaccinations, literacy, etc. Immediately after these comparisons were launched on the email lists Ancestry24 offered a special offer, reducing the cost of membership from R395 to R199 for a Christmas Special Offer. More reason to subscribe immediately. Act now! Go to http://ancestry24.com/upgrade-options/ Hurry before the offer ends! Francois Greeff says it is a good offer that will benefit most genealogists, particularly those who do one name studies. I am also an avid supporter of other paid web sites and software, such as Ancestry.com, which gives one a vast amount of American data; and Ancestry.co.uk, which gives access to millions of British records; and Legacy; and Family Tree Maker; and eSAGI; and SAG; and Tanap's products; and the Drakensteinse Erfenis; all genealogical books and web sites; Cyndi's list; Dennis Pretorius' shop; and GSSA and its branches, web sites, shops and various journals - to which I have consistently contributed over many years. During the past six months I contributed more than 60,000 photographs of genealogical documents to a South African genealogical project, and in order to achieve that I slept on the floor next to my computer at night, while it and I ran night and day on the project. I defy every bastard who says that I am anti anything in South African genealogy, with the exception of the "Shoe Box Mentality". I strongly oppose the Shoe Box Mentality, which describes a situation in which people take, take, take and do not give information to others, since they hide their 'secret' genealogy in a shoe box under the bed. It is petty and mean. I am surprised that you and Hendrik Louw can assume that I am anti-GSSA when both of you have seen my consistent input and support over several years. Hendrik Louw actually wrote to me to ask why I am so "hateful" towards GSSA. "Haatdraend" was the word he used. The pair of you make me think of my neighbour's wife, who makes his life a misery with her insane jealousy. She repeatedly attacks him because he loves his (very elderly) mother and phones her and helps her with the chores she can no longer manage. It is folly for a wife to be jealous of her husband's mother, siblings and cousins. These deeply caring relationships do not mean that he hates his wife. In the same way it is petty in the extreme when you and Hendrik Louw accuse me of infidelity when I point out that one of the best methods of solving problems, globally, is to throw money at the problem. Another good way is to get the help of others in a team effort. Brick walls crumble when one uses the services of professional genealogical researchers (as I know you do) and the services of the commercial genealogical data giants on the internet. If you, Richard, want to cast the first stone at me you must first stop using professional genealogists outside of eGSSA - and that is a very stupid requirement, isn't it? Especially since you, Richard Ball, use those services BECAUSE they are better than GSSA and eGSSA services. I do not say that you are disloyal to GSSA or eGSSA. I am not that stupid. You and I have worked together to clarify relationships in the family of Matthias Greeff and his wife, Susanna Claassen. http://www.eggsa.org/articles.htm. Does eGSSA hate you for that? I still say that one should spend money on your garden (mowing, sowing and growing) AND on your other pursuits and interests, including genealogy. Nothing is free - if you did not pay for directly, you paid indirectly through higher goods prices on account of advertising in genealogy, or taxes for archives. I expect the officers and executives of GSSA and eGSSA to react intellectually instead of emotionally. I also expect the officers and executives of GSSA and eGSSA to display an attitude of friendship and co-operation to ALL other genealogical organizations, instead of viewing them as competitors and enemies. I suggest that eGSSA create a special page on its web site to point out to members the enormous advantages of commercial services and web sites. I have also argued for some time that GISA or GSSA should set standards for professional genealogists and maintain a register of properly educated and qualified genealogical researchers. At present any clown can call himself a professional genealogist and fleece the public. I dare you and Hendrik Louw to organize a "Conference for Effective Co-operation" for GISA, GSSA, eGSSA, Ancestry24, the LDS, Cape Town Genealogical Society, the Universities that teach genealogy, and similar organizations. As far as I see GSSA and eGSSA cannot even agree to have one webmaster and one web site (www.eggsa.org and www.genza.org.za), but duplicate effort and cost. I also suspect that the tail is wagging the dog, since big eGSSA is a member of little GSSA. Members must join GSSA and one local branch, while it makes far more sense to join one local branch and eGSSA. In other words, we should have a branch at which we meet in person and a head office at which we meet online. All journals should be emailed to all members as a standard part of membership, but this does not happen because the branches bicker about money and memberships instead of working together. Your emotional reactions to each other and genealogical issues prevent you from organizing the structure of GSSA and eGSSA and branches rationally, in a manner that becomes the electronic age of the 21st century. And you waste your time picking on an inconsequential little idiot like me. Regards, Francois _____________ Francois Greeff, 36 Aston Road, London, SW20 8BE, United Kingdom Phone: 0044 20 8123 4224. Mobile 0044 79 6372 2345. Skype: Greefffrancois. Greeff Family Web Site: www.Greeff.info -----Original Message----- From: Richard Ball [mailto:richardonrootsweb@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk] Sent: 09 December 2011 12:15 To: Francois Greeff Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] "Getting something for free" Dear Francois Greeff, I was sorry to see that, in your long puff to boost subscriptions to one particular South African Genealogical organisation, which you sent to a number of the Rootsweb Mailing lists, you felt it necessary and desirable to denigrate and attempt to rubbish the Genealogical Society of South Africa (GSSA) and its eGGSA branch. It seems to me a pity that there is so much jealousy and exclusiveness within the South African genealogical community, of which your message is but one example, but this sort of thing does seem to obtain in most academic disciplines, I am sorry to say. Despite your negative criticism the Genealogical Society of South Africa and its branches, will, however, continue to provide what they can to promote and aid genealogical study in South Africa. Your selective quotes from the two web sites, conveniently ignored, the large amount of data and information on those web sites which is freely available to all researchers, members or not, without payment of any kind, the society does provide value for money. You wrote: TO SUM UP, FOR ABOUT R150 GSSA OFFERS MEMBERSHIP, FAMILIA AND ONE BRANCH JOURNAL OR NEWSLETTER AND YOU CAN BUY BOOKS AND CDS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE OTHER NEWSLETTERS AND JOURNALS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND PHOTOS OF DOCUMENTS IN SOME ARCHIVES, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE 1984 VOTERS’ ROLL, IF YOU PAID EXTRA.: but neglected to mention among the above the free Funeral Programs and Church Photographs, originally collected by the SAGenealogie email group and now maintained and daily increased by the GSSA on its web site: http://www.genza.org.za/biblio/ http://www.genza.org.za/bonus/main.php?g2_itemId=12 And as to eGGSA you wrote: eGSSA OFFERS VARIOUS UTTERLY VALUABLE TRANSCRIPTIONS, IMAGES OF GRAVESTONES ETC, BUT NOTHING ON THE SCALE OF ANCESTRY24. and the smaller scale of its provision presumably justifies your suggestion that people cease to enrol as members? If your aim as outlined in your plug for your favoured organisation is achieved, that is subscriptions to the GSSA to cease and be transferred to the organisation that you aim to promote, the only result would be that the two web sites http://www.genza.org.za and http://www.eggsa.org would cease to exist and the information they now provide be lost to all. I quote from the FAQ on membership: http://www.eggsa.org/FAQ-membership.htm#goodies your annual subscription to eGGSA will help to fund the web site which makes available a huge collection of genealogical materials freely available to all. Yours, Richard Ball Chair of the eGGSA branch of the GSSA -----Original Message----- From: Francois Greeff [mailto:goodgreeff@hiddencode.co.uk] Sent: 04 December 2011 19:14 To: 'south-africa-eastern-cape@rootsweb.com' Cc: SOUTH-AFRICA-L@rootsweb.com; SAGenealogie@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [ZA-EC] eGGSA South African Passenger List Project Well said, Trixie! I think that everyone can win if this new passenger list project devoted its efforts to enlarging the largest pool of information, instead of starting from scratch again. Besides that Ancersty24 has a great deal of other information too, and I have found their membership fee very cheap, considering the data they have given the Greeff clan (R395 generally, and half price for members of the Cape Town branch of GSSA). In other words, membership of GSSA is about R150 and membership of Ancestry24 is about R200 in the end. The cost of joining is thus more or less the same, but Ancestry24 has 59,578 Passenger records and 2,879 shipping records and one million transcribed and fully searchable records overall, and access to 8 million South African names. Synergy is a word that describes how two plus two can make six. Synergy is part of the logic behind mergers and acquisitions in corporate governance. When two organizations join forces and work together instead of in competition to each other there are massive savings: One head office, one set of accountants and auditors, one web site, mutually supporting advertising instead of adverts that cancel each other out, better use of transport, and united databases, as well as increased benefits to both customer sets. Jan Smuts first thought up the philosophy of Holism, and he said that "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts". That is easy to understand when you have a pile of spare parts, as opposed to all the same parts assembled to make a useful, working motor car. The whole assembled car is worth far more than the sum of its parts. I sincerely hope that GISA is about to enter into a new phase of co-operation with GSSA and other organizations. I urge their managements to consider the financial and practical advantages of synergy. The leaders in South African genealogy should also consider that Naspers is fully aware of it that the days of paper newspapers are over. The newspapers that have not shifted into electronic media are going insolvent. (See: http://newspaperdeathwatch.com/) The survivors are investing heavily in digital media: the internet, Pay TV, and all sorts of online activities. See http://www.naspers.com/company-structure.php There is no doubt that genealogy is the fastest growing internet hobby in the world, and these financial giants are investing billions of Dollars in genealogy. Even governments see genealogy as a source of big revenue. The British Government is making a fortune from world wide internet sales because you can order official birth, marriage and death certificates for events registered in England and Wales from the General Register Office (GRO) for just £9.25. Each. Per certificate. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevent s/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/dg_175628 Ancestry24 is investing a fortune in South African genealogy, and the leaders of all genealogy groups should get together and meet with the finance directors behind Ancestry24. It makes sense for Ancestry24 to offer discounts to members of GSSA, and it makes sense for Ancestry24 to host all the GSSA web sites free of charge, and it makes sense for Ancestry24 to participate in all GSSA projects. There is already too much senseless duplication in the passenger lists, and the transcription of voters rolls, and in transcription of paper records to digital records. In the latter Ancestry24 is way ahead of all the other players put together, so why not work together to find ways in which GSSA members can benefit from greater co-operation? Regards, Francois _____________ Francois Greeff, 36 Aston Road, London, SW20 8BE, United Kingdom Phone: 0044 20 8123 4224. Mobile 0044 79 6372 2345. Skype: Greefffrancois. Greeff Family Web Site: www.Greeff.info -----Original Message----- From: Trixie [mailto:verneukpan@gmail.com] Sent: 04 December 2011 05:41 To: south-africa-eastern-cape@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ZA-EC] eGGSA South African Passenger List Project This looks like the same passenger lists that Ancestry24 have done years ago - does anybody communicate with one another to see whether they are not dulicating work already done? Trixie On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 7:55 PM, Sue Mackay <sue@sausalito.demon.co.uk>wrote: > The first phase of its new Passenger List Project has gone live on the > web site of the eGGSA Branch of the Genealogical Society of South > Africa. The transcribing is being done by volunteers, members of the > eGGSA, Natal Midland and Western Cape branches of the GSSA: > > http://www.eggsa.org/arrivals/eGGSA%20Passenger%20Project.html > > > Posted on behalf of Richard Ball > www.eggsa.org > > Sue >

Let us examine logic: What is free? Richard Ball writes: "Your selective quotes from the two web sites, conveniently ignored, the large amount of data and information on those web sites which is freely available to all researchers, members or not, WITHOUT PAYMENT OF ANY KIND, the society does provide value for money." One assumes that he meant to say: "Your selective quotes from the two web sites conveniently ignored the large amount of data and information on those web sites, which is freely available to all researchers, members or not, WITHOUT PAYMENT OF ANY KIND. The society does provide value for money." Richard Ball also says: "If your aim as outlined in your plug for your favoured organisation is achieved, that is subscriptions to the GSSA to cease and be transferred to the organisation that you aim to promote, the only result would be that the two web sites http://www.genza.org.za and http://www.eggsa.org would cease to exist and the information they now provide be lost to all." One assumes that he meant to say: "If your aim, as outlined in your plug for your favoured organisation, is achieved (that is: subscriptions to the GSSA to cease and be transferred to the organisation that you [delete "aim to"] promote), the only result would be that the two web sites, http://www.genza.org.za and http://www.eggsa.org, would cease to exist and the information they now provide would be lost to all." The meaning of the above is: "If GSSA and eGSSA lost their income they would cease to exist, and cease to provide information". The logic is contradictory. 1a) the websites do make infromation available 1b) WITHOUT PAYMENT OF ANY KIND 2a) the websites would not be able to make the same information available 2b) without payment in the form of membership fees. NEW SUBJECT. If one says that the ocean contains more water than the swimming pool: 1. it is not an attack on the swimming pool 2. it does not mean that one should stop using the swimming pool 3. that the pool is bad and that one hates the swimming pool 4. that everyone should stop paying to use the swimming pool and pay to use the ocean instead. The same applies if one says that Ancestry24 has more data and information than GSSA and eGSSA. Regards, Francois _____________ Francois Greeff, 36 Aston Road, London, SW20 8BE, United Kingdom Phone: 0044 20 8123 4224. Mobile 0044 79 6372 2345. Skype: Greefffrancois. Greeff Family Web Site: www.Greeff.info -----Original Message----- From: Richard Ball [mailto:richardonrootsweb@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk] Sent: 09 December 2011 12:15 To: Francois Greeff Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] "Getting something for free" Dear Francois Greeff, I was sorry to see that, in your long puff to boost subscriptions to one particular South African Genealogical organisation, which you sent to a number of the Rootsweb Mailing lists, you felt it necessary and desirable to denigrate and attempt to rubbish the Genealogical Society of South Africa (GSSA) and its eGGSA branch. It seems to me a pity that there is so much jealousy and exclusiveness within the South African genealogical community, of which your message is but one example, but this sort of thing does seem to obtain in most academic disciplines, I am sorry to say. Despite your negative criticism the Genealogical Society of South Africa and its branches, will, however, continue to provide what they can to promote and aid genealogical study in South Africa. Your selective quotes from the two web sites, conveniently ignored, the large amount of data and information on those web sites which is freely available to all researchers, members or not, without payment of any kind, the society does provide value for money. You wrote: TO SUM UP, FOR ABOUT R150 GSSA OFFERS MEMBERSHIP, FAMILIA AND ONE BRANCH JOURNAL OR NEWSLETTER AND YOU CAN BUY BOOKS AND CDS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE OTHER NEWSLETTERS AND JOURNALS, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND PHOTOS OF DOCUMENTS IN SOME ARCHIVES, IF YOU PAY EXTRA AND ACCESS TO THE 1984 VOTERS' ROLL, IF YOU PAID EXTRA.: but neglected to mention among the above the free Funeral Programs and Church Photographs, originally collected by the SAGenealogie email group and now maintained and daily increased by the GSSA on its web site: http://www.genza.org.za/biblio/ http://www.genza.org.za/bonus/main.php?g2_itemId=12 And as to eGGSA you wrote: eGSSA OFFERS VARIOUS UTTERLY VALUABLE TRANSCRIPTIONS, IMAGES OF GRAVESTONES ETC, BUT NOTHING ON THE SCALE OF ANCESTRY24. and the smaller scale of its provision presumably justifies your suggestion that people cease to enrol as members? If your aim as outlined in your plug for your favoured organisation is achieved, that is subscriptions to the GSSA to cease and be transferred to the organisation that you aim to promote, the only result would be that the two web sites http://www.genza.org.za and http://www.eggsa.org would cease to exist and the information they now provide be lost to all. I quote from the FAQ on membership: http://www.eggsa.org/FAQ-membership.htm#goodies your annual subscription to eGGSA will help to fund the web site which makes available a huge collection of genealogical materials freely available to all. Yours, Richard Ball Chair of the eGGSA branch of the GSSA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. 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