Oh dear! I stand corrected. If I am wrong in any aspect of what I said, I apologise profusely: but I have to say I am none the wiser after your exposition; perhaps its a case of "Ag! Die ouderdom, die ouderdom!" (which was what my sainted Afrikaans grandmother and her generation used to say if she found she had muddled something). I don't remember anything specific; I was after all nearly nine years old when she died. But my mother continued the use of the expression, and so did her innumerable cousins, and I expect my surviving brothers still do to this day. I used to do Deceased Estate work way back in the late 1950s and up to mid-1961 when I left South Africa, and I fully understand how complicated such things are even in the then four Provinces; they were even worse in Australia with eight jurisdictions, and I shudder to think what they must be like in the US . . . They are also very complicated in the British Isles, with four: England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Eire. I also don't remember when it became compulsory in SA to report all births, deaths and marriages (at least of white people, though in some cases of non-white also) to a central registry, though I well remember my father, a Presbyterian Minister, wrestling with the paper-work on such occasions, and finding it irksome to have to state on every such document what was the race of the person and being legally responsible for verifying it. He felt that if he got it wrong, and the State came down on him, the Church would back him up and plead that the requirement was impossible to comply with given the difficulties it entailed and the artificial definition of race in the legislation; but he was prepared to be fined (and refuse to pay) if it came to that, with a view to shaming the Government. So I'm still not clear where the boundary lies, but still maintain that there is, or should be, nothing private about a happy event such as a birth. But we live in an increasingly mad world in which nothing surprises me any more; but it was startling to find the madness extending so far back. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 17/04/2015, at 7:38 PM, Milly & Adrian Rowe wrote: > > Hi Andrew > > I have read with interest and amusement, your last couple of emails, and for > someone who has not lived in South Africa for a long time you have summed up > nicely the problems we have with State and to a great extent Municipal > offices. Mainly jobs for pals once the old guard and expertise has been > driven out or retired! > > I think however you may have become a little confused! You need to separate > in your mind the official and Church records. As Denise and others have > said there is a closed period of 100 years for official birth records, 20 > years for marriage & death records. As Denise has said, we are lucky in KZN > as "our" official Natal registers (Colonial Secretary/Dept. of > Interior/Dept. of Home Affairs) up to about 1950/1989 depending on the > Magisterial district are housed in the Pietermaritzburg Repository. Note > however that for Marriages this only includes marriages carried out by a > Magistrate NOT Church marriages. Access to the Birth Registers is > restricted to over 100 years BUT if you have written permission from a > descendant they will allow more recent access! I believe that we are the > only Province which has these official Registers housed in their local > Repository. > > As far as Church Registers (baptisms, marriages and burials) are concerned > that is a completely different matter and access to them depends very much > on the policy of the various religions and where the Registers are stored. > > All the best > > Adrian > Durban > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger via > Sent: 17 April 2015 09:33 AM > To: Denise Igesund via > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates > > Ha! Bart Simon's latest > > Denise, it looks as though I was right (in a previous sequence which I have > since deleted) about the political correctness bit. The notion, that anyone > should be able to keep secret for 100 years such a harmless piece of > information as the fact that he or she was baptised on a particular date > into a particular denomination, is ludicrous. It is could perhaps be > remotely embarrassing if the baptism concerned is of an adult, as an adult > has some say in the matter, but Mugabe's certainly was not such, as an RC he > would have been baptised as soon as possible because of the RC belief that > unbaptised people would infallibly go to Hell, which was roundly castigated > by C S Lewis among others. > > Certainly the infamous Mugabe had no compunction, when asked as a courtesy > to open the World Council of Churches meeting in Harare, in sounding off > about the infamies of the Christian Churches and in particular the Roman > Catholic Church; Mandela, on the other hand spoke, gently but firmly, and > pointed out that most of those present who had a decent education, including > Mugabe and himself, owed an incalculable debt to the Church missions who > provided it when the Governments concerned were not interested in doing so. > He received a rousing cheer from all present, whereas Mugabe's outburst had > been received in stunned silence. > > My wife happened to be present during this exchange, along with my youngest > brother, a Presbyterian Minister in South Africa (now retired); both were of > course fully conscious of the fact that my father and his was a Presbyterian > Minister of some repute, who had also been a House Warden at Fort Hare, and > had read Greats at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, followed by Divinity in > Edinburgh. His sojourn at UCT, on the strength of which he got a privileged > chance at the Rhodes Scholarship, was possible partly because of his own > efforts and partly his parents' sacrifice, but also partly good luck as the > pendulum of the criteria for entry had swung towards pure academic prowess > and away from "all-round" excellence (meaning good at sport), where it was > when our own egregious Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, gained his Rhodes > Scholarship (also through attendance at a prestige school). He's rather > thick but replete with cunning, and resembles Vladimir Putin and George Bush > the Lesser in ma! > king his muscles, bandy-legged cowboy gait and general cocky attitude his > trademark attributes. (If Abbot were just a bit younger he would qualify > for my son's name for such people: "Mamils": "Middle-Aged Men In Lycra", and > has in fact been like that ever since he gained prominence in politics, only > the acronym hadn't been invented then.) Such men have no shame, but a > disturbingly large proportion of the public fall for it. > > Perhaps my outburst was ill-experssed in one respect, though: in the > paragraph after point 2 I should have stayed with corruption, rather than > fraud! > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > On 11/04/2014, at 5:43 PM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > >> Hear, hear! But there are two possible explanations: >> >> 1. Sheer boneheadedness manifested in a combination of idleness, >> incompetence and fear of doing anything wrong, or >> >> 2. Corruption. >> >> No doubt these are also connected, as idleness can be overcome with > sufficient incentive . . . In other words, incompetence breeds fraud. >> >> My wife sent money to Pretoria when the Consul-General's office in Sydney > said it couldn't help her (because all such matters had been centralized) > and never saw a thing for her money. As it happens, we were in Cape Town a > little while after that, and sat in the Cape Town office (which I think was > then just behind the City Hall), shifting up periodically in a sedentary > version of the regular Airport snake-queue until we were called, and she > then laid down the law to the hapless counter-clerk to such effect that he > was cowed (or shamed) into giving us redress, even to the extent of not > charging us the normal fee. But that was many years ago, I think > around1992, and we found things progressively worse on successive visits, > culminating last year in a refusal to sell me a railway ticket (apparently > because I was past retirement age, and that conflicted with the quite > different rules about non-residents!), and would not even sell me a > full-fare one. So we jumped on the train! > anyway and 'fessed up in the central station in town and paid for a return > ticket for each of us. In another office, I forget whose, I was told that I > couldn't enter into a non-resident transaction because I could not prove > that I had ever emigrated from SA -- even though I proffered my Australian > Passport as evidence. And this applied in spades to my wife who, for > sentimental reasons, has retained her SA passport, but has a permanent > residence visa-stamp in it from the Australian Immigration Department in it > -- and has been on the electoral roll, and holds an Australian driver's > licence, and has been a registered proprietor (jointly with me) of the real > estate in which we live since 1963, which has all the hallmarks of > permanence about it. >> >> If this story sounds garbled or just plain daft, that's because it is -- > but it is true all the same. So don't get your hopes up! >> >> Andrew Rodger >> rodgera@audioio.com >> >> >> On 11/04/2014, at 8:00 AM, Paxie Kelsey wrote: >> >>> >>> I have been waiting for more than two years for one copy Helge and I >>> think it's a big fraud system ... take the bucks and never deliver! >>> Paxie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge >>> Pretorius >>> Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM >>> To: SA List >>> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage >>> certificates >>> >>> Dear Listers >>> >>> I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage >>> certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from >>> the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was >>> in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck >>> obtaining such records? >>> I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person >>> did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost >>> impossible - their >>> words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in >>> the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Helge >

Hi Lucky I have no access to the Registers held at the Archives in Pretoria, but see that the DRC was built in 1866 in Ventersdorp but have no idea what Registers survive. I'm surprised they were still alive to have a child born in 1998!! Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Laquita Belinfante [mailto:belinfante@telkomsa.net] Sent: 19 April 2015 05:53 PM To: 'Milly & Adrian Rowe'; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Adrian, Please tell me where I could search for a Tvl. marriage in Ventersdorp, circa 1885? For P Pretorius X JJ Niman. The only information I have is birth of a child in 1998? Lucky As far as marriage registers at the Registrar of Births, Marriages & Deaths are concerned, the following is the situation: Transvaal from 1861 (virtually complete)

Adrian, Please tell me where I could search for a Tvl. marriage in Ventersdorp, circa 1885? For P Pretorius X JJ Niman. The only information I have is birth of a child in 1998? Lucky As far as marriage registers at the Registrar of Births, Marriages & Deaths are concerned, the following is the situation: Transvaal from 1861 (virtually complete) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

My daughter in law would like to trace what happened to her brother in South Africa He died she thinks between 1996 and 2000 and is there any way I can access Death Records for that period or are they still unavailable... I would be glad to know before I start plodding along other roads Thank you Jean Tuckey

Hi Andrew Your Grandmother was a wise person! It is always useful to be able to blame senility for ones lapses! If you were confused before, you certainly will be now! Despite supposedly having a democratic government for more than 20 years our Archives are still predominantly stored according to the old provincial groupings. Also nothing has changed as we still have to enter our race group on official government forms! Just a way that the present regime can discriminate against us English speakers, just as the last government did! Now, to confuse you even more, you say you don't remember when it became compulsory in SA to register BMDs! Not an easy answer as it varied dependent upon in which Province one resided. For example, it was obligatory to register births and deaths in: Cape Province from 1895 Natal from 1868, Transvaal from 1901, Orange Free State from 1902. As far as marriage registers at the Registrar of Births, Marriages & Deaths are concerned, the following is the situation: Cape Province from 1820 (incomplete) Cape Province from 1859 (virtually complete) Natal from 1868 (virtually complete) Transvaal from 1861 (virtually complete) Orange Free State from 1872 (virtually complete) Hope you still have some hair left! Adrian From: Andrew Rodger [mailto:rodgera@audioio.com] Sent: 19 April 2015 10:50 AM To: Milly & Adrian Rowe; Denise Igesund via Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Oh dear! I stand corrected. If I am wrong in any aspect of what I said, I apologise profusely: but I have to say I am none the wiser after your exposition; perhaps its a case of "Ag! Die ouderdom, die ouderdom!" (which was what my sainted Afrikaans grandmother and her generation used to say if she found she had muddled something). I don't remember anything specific; I was after all nearly nine years old when she died. But my mother continued the use of the expression, and so did her innumerable cousins, and I expect my surviving brothers still do to this day. I used to do Deceased Estate work way back in the late 1950s and up to mid-1961 when I left South Africa, and I fully understand how complicated such things are even in the then four Provinces; they were even worse in Australia with eight jurisdictions, and I shudder to think what they must be like in the US . . . They are also very complicated in the British Isles, with four: England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Eire. I also don't remember when it became compulsory in SA to report all births, deaths and marriages (at least of white people, though in some cases of non-white also) to a central registry, though I well remember my father, a Presbyterian Minister, wrestling with the paper-work on such occasions, and finding it irksome to have to state on every such document what was the race of the person and being legally responsible for verifying it. He felt that if he got it wrong, and the State came down on him, the Church would back him up and plead that the requirement was impossible to comply with given the difficulties it entailed and the artificial definition of race in the legislation; but he was prepared to be fined (and refuse to pay) if it came to that, with a view to shaming the Government. So I'm still not clear where the boundary lies, but still maintain that there is, or should be, nothing private about a happy event such as a birth. But we live in an increasingly mad world in which nothing surprises me any more; but it was startling to find the madness extending so far back. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 17/04/2015, at 7:38 PM, Milly & Adrian Rowe wrote: Hi Andrew I have read with interest and amusement, your last couple of emails, and for someone who has not lived in South Africa for a long time you have summed up nicely the problems we have with State and to a great extent Municipal offices. Mainly jobs for pals once the old guard and expertise has been driven out or retired! I think however you may have become a little confused! You need to separate in your mind the official and Church records. As Denise and others have said there is a closed period of 100 years for official birth records, 20 years for marriage & death records. As Denise has said, we are lucky in KZN as "our" official Natal registers (Colonial Secretary/Dept. of Interior/Dept. of Home Affairs) up to about 1950/1989 depending on the Magisterial district are housed in the Pietermaritzburg Repository. Note however that for Marriages this only includes marriages carried out by a Magistrate NOT Church marriages. Access to the Birth Registers is restricted to over 100 years BUT if you have written permission from a descendant they will allow more recent access! I believe that we are the only Province which has these official Registers housed in their local Repository. As far as Church Registers (baptisms, marriages and burials) are concerned that is a completely different matter and access to them depends very much on the policy of the various religions and where the Registers are stored. All the best Adrian Durban

Hi I am selling the following books in Cape Town. Buyer collects or pays courier or postal costs. The Oxford dictionary of local & family history by David Hey. Isbn 0198600801. R100. The family historians enquire within by Pauline Saul. Fifth edition. Isbn 187209483x. R100. The following four books sold as a set of four different books for R200: Greater London cemeteries and crematoria by Webb. Isbn 1859510213. Lists of Londoners by Gibson and Creaton. Isbn 1872094368. London and Middlesex, a genealogical bibliography volume 1 and 2 both by Raymond. Second edition for both. Isbns 1860060587 vol 1 and vol 2 is1860060595. Contact me off list on meg.crawcour@gmail.com Megan Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless deviceSent from my BlackBerry® wireless device</div>

Hello: [Not sure?]: Michael Victor Canning b:01-11-1917 in London, England, m:06-1939 at Westminster St. Margaret, London, England, to [Elizabeth Kathleen Donnes/Downes]. [CANNING, Michael Victor, B.A., D.A.A., F.R.S.A. ; Pub. Agent ; b. 1st Nov., 1917, Lon. ; educ. Trinity Coll., Camb. ; s.o. Patrick Aidan Canning ; m. June, 1939, Elizabeth Kathleen Donnes. Came to S.A. 1946. Clubs, R.A.C., Lon. Add., 32, Shotley.]. [Robert Marcus Ashby m. Isobel Agnes Davidson]. That's it folks... Bart. -----Original Message-----

Hall again Bart Many thanks for the MC clarification - I have gather so much information about this man - much more than I ever anticipated - thanks to this list and it's Facebook page. Many thanks to all the KENYON contributors Kind regards Dennis Pretorius Krugersdorp South Africa Tel - 011-762-8911 Cel - 083-679-8541 Fax - 086-609-8541 -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 9:36 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] The KENYON surname Hello: Worthy of note: [1964: Col. A. J. Kenyon, MC, Kirby Kenyon Advertising. Chairman, Kirby Kenyon Advertising (Pty) Ltd. Johannesburg. PO Box 1061 Jhb]; [14th Flr Union Square Bldg, 80 Plein St, Jhb] (Or 16th Flr ?). He seems to be succeeded by one I. D. Kenyon [Ian Drysdale Kenyon]. [MC=Military Cross]. Being a man of military note would explain him being the 'Trustee'. Bart. -----Original Message----- === Albert Johnson Kenyon lived Krugersdorp 1955, trustee of housing complex built for soldiers returning after WW2. === ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am interested in BOYES stemming from East London. -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Keith Meintjes via Sent: 10 November 2014 09:06 AM To: Ines Mannhardt; SA List Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Family interest Ines, I am interested in (not related to) the family of Robert Nairne Boyes (perhaps French: Bois) who was a magistrate in the 1800s. The family includes the engineer of Boyes Drive, the upper road from Kalk Bay to Muizenberg, and also the watercolor artist, Harold (Henderson) Boyes. I am in contact with some members of this Boyes family in Cape Town and Johannesburg. The basic genealogy of this family is in SA Genealogies Vol. 1. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: 01:23 AM EST, 11/10/2014 From: Ines Mannhardt <Ines.Mannhardt@telus.net> To: Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Family interest Hi Keith, I have John Boyes, died 1734, don't have a birthdate. He married Ellis Harbert in 1696, Ann Drinkow in 1719. They had 8 children. His son William Boyes, about 1695 - 1740, married Rachel Craven. They had 10 children. His son Bethuel II Boyes, 1732-1810, married Mary Etherington and Milcah Drinkow. He had 11 Children. His son Robert Boyes, 1770-1813, married Anna Löning and Christine Magdalene Coch. He left England in 1792 for Bremen. He had 6 children. Their son James Bethuel Boyes, 1804-1879, married twice, Permelia Sophie Adeline Vogel and Margaretha Rebecca Heineken. James Bethuel was born and died in Bremen, Germany. He had 11 children, all with P.S.A. Vogel. Their son Robert Boyes, 1835 - 1908, married Hedwig Marie Mathilde Fritze in Bremen, German, 1838 - 1922. They had 5 Children, Paul Robert was in Nicaragua first, then moved to San Francisco. Their son, Richard, is my great grandfather. He stayed in Yokohama until 1915 and then joined his brother Paul Robert. He had 2 children with a Japanese woman, we don't know if they were married or not, even the great grandson does not know. Richard Boyes, 1867 - 1928 (died in San Francisco, Ca). His 1st wife (possibly the 2nd), was Annie Metcalfe Sands, my great grandmother. Their son, Alfred Boyes, 1901 - 1929, he was born in Yokohama, Japan, died in Bremen, Germany. He married my grandmother, Ilse Marie Mannhardt (adopted), they had 2 daughters, one of them my mother. I have the names and dates, etc. for the all the other children as well, I just sent you my direct line. If you want it all or you have some specific questions, send them my way. Some other Boyes moved to the US, I have some information, not all of it. I know some 2nd cousins live in California, or used to, can't find them. My great grandfather married again in San Francisco and had 2 children. Her name was Letitia Lacayo. The descandants of the son are my elusive cousins. The daughter did not have children that I could find. Her name was Marie Letitia. I also found a request to emigrate to Russia in the database of "Die Maus", the genealogical society in Bremen. I would love to find them. A lot of the early information comes from the Boyes one name study. Ines On 09/11/14 09:58, Keith Meintjes wrote: > Which Boyes family? > > Keith > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: 12:32 PM EST, 11/09/2014 > From: Ines Mannhardt via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > To: Mark Lingenfelder <marklingenfelder@outlook.com>, > south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Family interest > > Hi Mark, > I have some Tolken but the name is spelled with o Umlaut. They are > related to my Boyes family. I know that the Umlaut was quite often > dropped when Germans moved to English speaking countries, others > probably as well. > > Ines > > > > On 09/11/14 08:46, Mark Lingenfelder via wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> >> >> >> I would like to know if anyone is researching, or has an interest in >> the > following families: >> >> >> >> LINGENFELDER >> >> TOLKEN >> >> HARTOG >> >> DRURY >> >> MORRIS (Afrikaans/ western Transvaal) >> >> JUSTUS >> >> FRIEBUS >> >> ZWEIG >> >> MATTHEE >> >> LUCAS (Piketberg/ western cape) >> >> DENNER >> >> ROGIERS >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Mark Lingenfelder >> >> marklingenfelder@outlook.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Windows Mail >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 10695 (20141109) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 10696 (20141109) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello: Worthy of note: [1964: Col. A. J. Kenyon, MC, Kirby Kenyon Advertising. Chairman, Kirby Kenyon Advertising (Pty) Ltd. Johannesburg. PO Box 1061 Jhb]; [14th Flr Union Square Bldg, 80 Plein St, Jhb] (Or 16th Flr ?). He seems to be succeeded by one I. D. Kenyon [Ian Drysdale Kenyon]. [MC=Military Cross]. Being a man of military note would explain him being the 'Trustee'. Bart. -----Original Message----- === Albert Johnson Kenyon lived Krugersdorp 1955, trustee of housing complex built for soldiers returning after WW2. ===

Ha! Bart Simon's latest Denise, it looks as though I was right (in a previous sequence which I have since deleted) about the political correctness bit. The notion, that anyone should be able to keep secret for 100 years such a harmless piece of information as the fact that he or she was baptised on a particular date into a particular denomination, is ludicrous. It is could perhaps be remotely embarrassing if the baptism concerned is of an adult, as an adult has some say in the matter, but Mugabe's certainly was not such, as an RC he would have been baptised as soon as possible because of the RC belief that unbaptised people would infallibly go to Hell, which was roundly castigated by C S Lewis among others. Certainly the infamous Mugabe had no compunction, when asked as a courtesy to open the World Council of Churches meeting in Harare, in sounding off about the infamies of the Christian Churches and in particular the Roman Catholic Church; Mandela, on the other hand spoke, gently but firmly, and pointed out that most of those present who had a decent education, including Mugabe and himself, owed an incalculable debt to the Church missions who provided it when the Governments concerned were not interested in doing so. He received a rousing cheer from all present, whereas Mugabe's outburst had been received in stunned silence. My wife happened to be present during this exchange, along with my youngest brother, a Presbyterian Minister in South Africa (now retired); both were of course fully conscious of the fact that my father and his was a Presbyterian Minister of some repute, who had also been a House Warden at Fort Hare, and had read Greats at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, followed by Divinity in Edinburgh. His sojourn at UCT, on the strength of which he got a privileged chance at the Rhodes Scholarship, was possible partly because of his own efforts and partly his parents' sacrifice, but also partly good luck as the pendulum of the criteria for entry had swung towards pure academic prowess and away from "all-round" excellence (meaning good at sport), where it was when our own egregious Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, gained his Rhodes Scholarship (also through attendance at a prestige school). He's rather thick but replete with cunning, and resembles Vladimir Putin and George Bush the Lesser in making his muscles, bandy-legged cowboy gait and general cocky attitude his trademark attributes. (If Abbot were just a bit younger he would qualify for my son's name for such people: "Mamils": "Middle-Aged Men In Lycra", and has in fact been like that ever since he gained prominence in politics, only the acronym hadn't been invented then.) Such men have no shame, but a disturbingly large proportion of the public fall for it. Perhaps my outburst was ill-experssed in one respect, though: in the paragraph after point 2 I should have stayed with corruption, rather than fraud! Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 11/04/2014, at 5:43 PM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > Hear, hear! But there are two possible explanations: > > 1. Sheer boneheadedness manifested in a combination of idleness, incompetence and fear of doing anything wrong, or > > 2. Corruption. > > No doubt these are also connected, as idleness can be overcome with sufficient incentive . . . In other words, incompetence breeds fraud. > > My wife sent money to Pretoria when the Consul-General's office in Sydney said it couldn't help her (because all such matters had been centralized) and never saw a thing for her money. As it happens, we were in Cape Town a little while after that, and sat in the Cape Town office (which I think was then just behind the City Hall), shifting up periodically in a sedentary version of the regular Airport snake-queue until we were called, and she then laid down the law to the hapless counter-clerk to such effect that he was cowed (or shamed) into giving us redress, even to the extent of not charging us the normal fee. But that was many years ago, I think around1992, and we found things progressively worse on successive visits, culminating last year in a refusal to sell me a railway ticket (apparently because I was past retirement age, and that conflicted with the quite different rules about non-residents!), and would not even sell me a full-fare one. So we jumped on the train anyway and 'fessed up in the central station in town and paid for a return ticket for each of us. In another office, I forget whose, I was told that I couldn't enter into a non-resident transaction because I could not prove that I had ever emigrated from SA -- even though I proffered my Australian Passport as evidence. And this applied in spades to my wife who, for sentimental reasons, has retained her SA passport, but has a permanent residence visa-stamp in it from the Australian Immigration Department in it -- and has been on the electoral roll, and holds an Australian driver's licence, and has been a registered proprietor (jointly with me) of the real estate in which we live since 1963, which has all the hallmarks of permanence about it. > > If this story sounds garbled or just plain daft, that's because it is -- but it is true all the same. So don't get your hopes up! > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > On 11/04/2014, at 8:00 AM, Paxie Kelsey wrote: > >> >> I have been waiting for more than two years for one copy Helge and I think >> it's a big fraud system ... take the bucks and never deliver! >> Paxie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge Pretorius >> Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM >> To: SA List >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates >> >> Dear Listers >> >> I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage >> certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from the >> Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was in 1908 >> and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck obtaining such >> records? >> I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person did >> not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost impossible - their >> words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in the >> archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). >> >> Kind regards >> Helge >> >> ____________________________________________________________ >> South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za >> >> Cotlands - Shaping tomorrows Heroes http://www.cotlands.org.za/ >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

Hi Andrew I have read with interest and amusement, your last couple of emails, and for someone who has not lived in South Africa for a long time you have summed up nicely the problems we have with State and to a great extent Municipal offices. Mainly jobs for pals once the old guard and expertise has been driven out or retired! I think however you may have become a little confused! You need to separate in your mind the official and Church records. As Denise and others have said there is a closed period of 100 years for official birth records, 20 years for marriage & death records. As Denise has said, we are lucky in KZN as "our" official Natal registers (Colonial Secretary/Dept. of Interior/Dept. of Home Affairs) up to about 1950/1989 depending on the Magisterial district are housed in the Pietermaritzburg Repository. Note however that for Marriages this only includes marriages carried out by a Magistrate NOT Church marriages. Access to the Birth Registers is restricted to over 100 years BUT if you have written permission from a descendant they will allow more recent access! I believe that we are the only Province which has these official Registers housed in their local Repository. As far as Church Registers (baptisms, marriages and burials) are concerned that is a completely different matter and access to them depends very much on the policy of the various religions and where the Registers are stored. All the best Adrian Durban -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger via Sent: 17 April 2015 09:33 AM To: Denise Igesund via Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Ha! Bart Simon's latest Denise, it looks as though I was right (in a previous sequence which I have since deleted) about the political correctness bit. The notion, that anyone should be able to keep secret for 100 years such a harmless piece of information as the fact that he or she was baptised on a particular date into a particular denomination, is ludicrous. It is could perhaps be remotely embarrassing if the baptism concerned is of an adult, as an adult has some say in the matter, but Mugabe's certainly was not such, as an RC he would have been baptised as soon as possible because of the RC belief that unbaptised people would infallibly go to Hell, which was roundly castigated by C S Lewis among others. Certainly the infamous Mugabe had no compunction, when asked as a courtesy to open the World Council of Churches meeting in Harare, in sounding off about the infamies of the Christian Churches and in particular the Roman Catholic Church; Mandela, on the other hand spoke, gently but firmly, and pointed out that most of those present who had a decent education, including Mugabe and himself, owed an incalculable debt to the Church missions who provided it when the Governments concerned were not interested in doing so. He received a rousing cheer from all present, whereas Mugabe's outburst had been received in stunned silence. My wife happened to be present during this exchange, along with my youngest brother, a Presbyterian Minister in South Africa (now retired); both were of course fully conscious of the fact that my father and his was a Presbyterian Minister of some repute, who had also been a House Warden at Fort Hare, and had read Greats at Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, followed by Divinity in Edinburgh. His sojourn at UCT, on the strength of which he got a privileged chance at the Rhodes Scholarship, was possible partly because of his own efforts and partly his parents' sacrifice, but also partly good luck as the pendulum of the criteria for entry had swung towards pure academic prowess and away from "all-round" excellence (meaning good at sport), where it was when our own egregious Prime Minister, Tony Abbott, gained his Rhodes Scholarship (also through attendance at a prestige school). He's rather thick but replete with cunning, and resembles Vladimir Putin and George Bush the Lesser in ma! king his muscles, bandy-legged cowboy gait and general cocky attitude his trademark attributes. (If Abbot were just a bit younger he would qualify for my son's name for such people: "Mamils": "Middle-Aged Men In Lycra", and has in fact been like that ever since he gained prominence in politics, only the acronym hadn't been invented then.) Such men have no shame, but a disturbingly large proportion of the public fall for it. Perhaps my outburst was ill-experssed in one respect, though: in the paragraph after point 2 I should have stayed with corruption, rather than fraud! Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 11/04/2014, at 5:43 PM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > Hear, hear! But there are two possible explanations: > > 1. Sheer boneheadedness manifested in a combination of idleness, > incompetence and fear of doing anything wrong, or > > 2. Corruption. > > No doubt these are also connected, as idleness can be overcome with sufficient incentive . . . In other words, incompetence breeds fraud. > > My wife sent money to Pretoria when the Consul-General's office in Sydney said it couldn't help her (because all such matters had been centralized) and never saw a thing for her money. As it happens, we were in Cape Town a little while after that, and sat in the Cape Town office (which I think was then just behind the City Hall), shifting up periodically in a sedentary version of the regular Airport snake-queue until we were called, and she then laid down the law to the hapless counter-clerk to such effect that he was cowed (or shamed) into giving us redress, even to the extent of not charging us the normal fee. But that was many years ago, I think around1992, and we found things progressively worse on successive visits, culminating last year in a refusal to sell me a railway ticket (apparently because I was past retirement age, and that conflicted with the quite different rules about non-residents!), and would not even sell me a full-fare one. So we jumped on the train! anyway and 'fessed up in the central station in town and paid for a return ticket for each of us. In another office, I forget whose, I was told that I couldn't enter into a non-resident transaction because I could not prove that I had ever emigrated from SA -- even though I proffered my Australian Passport as evidence. And this applied in spades to my wife who, for sentimental reasons, has retained her SA passport, but has a permanent residence visa-stamp in it from the Australian Immigration Department in it -- and has been on the electoral roll, and holds an Australian driver's licence, and has been a registered proprietor (jointly with me) of the real estate in which we live since 1963, which has all the hallmarks of permanence about it. > > If this story sounds garbled or just plain daft, that's because it is -- but it is true all the same. So don't get your hopes up! > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > On 11/04/2014, at 8:00 AM, Paxie Kelsey wrote: > >> >> I have been waiting for more than two years for one copy Helge and I >> think it's a big fraud system ... take the bucks and never deliver! >> Paxie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge >> Pretorius >> Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM >> To: SA List >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage >> certificates >> >> Dear Listers >> >> I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage >> certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from >> the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was >> in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck >> obtaining such records? >> I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person >> did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost >> impossible - their >> words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in >> the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). >> >> Kind regards >> Helge

Hallo Bart and all others who helped Many thanks for your input re the KENYON family and in particular re Albert Johnson Kenyon I have now been able to get all his "vital statistics" .... and - yes - there was a KENYON in Grahamstown - the Cricketer of fame who represented South Africa - but his link with my Albert is still rather tenuous. I appreciate the help from everybody on this list Kind regards Dennis Pretorius Krugersdorp South Africa Tel - 011-762-8911 Cel - 083-679-8541 Fax - 086-609-8541 -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:29 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] The KENYON surname Hello: [ALBERT JOHNSON KENYON AND IAN DRYSDALE AND KENYON ADVERTISING (PROPRIETARY) LIMITED. STARTING 1956]: The person who 'seems' to be the son of [Albert Johnson Kenyon] is [Ian Drysdale Kenyon] b:1925. IDK's wife is [Margaret Elizabeth \\] b:01-10-1928, d:14-12-2006, her last address was: [19 Olivedale Retirement Centre, Pritchard Street, Olivedale, Randburg]. They might still have old contact details for this family etc. ?. Bart. -----Original Message----- === Arthur John Henry Kenyon b:1898-02-07. Albert Johnson Kenyon b:1891-07-14. === Lived Krugersdorp 1955, trustee of housing complex built for returning soldiers after WW2. Albert Johnson Kenyon. === ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello: [ALBERT JOHNSON KENYON AND IAN DRYSDALE AND KENYON ADVERTISING (PROPRIETARY) LIMITED. STARTING 1956]: The person who 'seems' to be the son of [Albert Johnson Kenyon] is [Ian Drysdale Kenyon] b:1925. IDK's wife is [Margaret Elizabeth \\] b:01-10-1928, d:14-12-2006, her last address was: [19 Olivedale Retirement Centre, Pritchard Street, Olivedale, Randburg]. They might still have old contact details for this family etc. ?. Bart. -----Original Message----- === Arthur John Henry Kenyon b:1898-02-07. Albert Johnson Kenyon b:1891-07-14. === Lived Krugersdorp 1955, trustee of housing complex built for returning soldiers after WW2. Albert Johnson Kenyon. ===

Hi How do we get the reference and how does one go about ordering them? Thanks Denise -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes via Sent: 15 April 2015 12:06 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates On 15 Apr 2015 at 9:16, Heather MacAlister via wrote: > Hi Denise > The Cape Town archives keeps birth certificates fro the Western Cape, > Northern Cape and Eastern Cape which only start in 1895 - however > there is a > 100 year embargo so only birth certificates from 1915 are allowed access to. That is at least an advance on the previous system, where you had to apply to Home Affairs, and they had to fish the registers out of the archives in order to provide a certificiarte, which is why it was so expensive and took so long. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

=== DEPOT TAB: DESCRIPTION: ILLIQUID CASE. DECLARING CONTRACT. MICHAEL VICTOR CANNING AND ROBERT MARCUS ASHBY VERSUS ALBERT JOHNSON KENYON AND IAN DRYSDALE AND KENYON ADVERTISING (PROPRIETARY) LIMITED. STARTING 1956 ENDING 1956. === KENYON ADVERTISING CC, 7 FAIRHOLME AV, ATHLONE, DURBAN. Ph.: 031-564-2117. ???. === DEPOT VAB: DESCRIPTION: CIVIL RECORDS. TRIALS AND APPLICATIONS. ALBERT JOHNSTON KENYON VERSUS CLARENCE HARVEY CAMPBELL. STARTING 1929 ENDING 1929. === https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSH-X47Q https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12162-77137-18 Arthur John Henry Kenyon b:1898-02-07. Albert Johnson Kenyon b:1891-07-14. === DEPOT KAB: DESCRIPTION: KENYON, ETHEL SUSAN. NEE JOHNSON. DEATH NOTICE. STARTING 1903. ???. === Bart. -----Original Message----- === Lived Krugersdorp 1955, trustee of housing complex built for returning soldiers after WW2. Albert Johnson Kenyon. ===

Hallo All I need help to trace details of a man who lived in Krugersdorp in 1955 - he was then a trustee of a housing complex built for returning soldiers after WW2. His name is Albert Johnson KENYON and I am afraid that that is all I know about him. I need to find out whether he is still alive - which is unlikely - or when and where he died. Does anyone have any contact with the KENYON family. I have phoned 6 people listed in the White Pages but no one knows of an Albert Johnson KENYON Please help me !! Dennis Pretorius Krugersdorp South Africa Tel - 011-762-8911 Cel - 083-679-8541 Fax - 086-609-8541

On 15 Apr 2015 at 9:16, Heather MacAlister via wrote: > Hi Denise > The Cape Town archives keeps birth certificates fro the Western Cape, > Northern Cape and Eastern Cape which only start in 1895 ­ however there is a > 100 year embargo so only birth certificates from 1915 are allowed access to. That is at least an advance on the previous system, where you had to apply to Home Affairs, and they had to fish the registers out of the archives in order to provide a certificiarte, which is why it was so expensive and took so long. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

Hi Denise The Cape Town archives keeps birth certificates fro the Western Cape, Northern Cape and Eastern Cape which only start in 1895 ­ however there is a 100 year embargo so only birth certificates from 1915 are allowed access to. > HAWC Home Affairs Western Cape Cape Town Archives > HAEC Eastern Cape Home Affairs Cape Town Archives > HANC Home Affairs Northern Cape Cape Town Archives > > > You will first need to know in which magisterial district the birth took > place as this will determine which Archives those records are held. These > indexes are not searchable electronically except for the Western Cape > Index on Ancestry24. If someone was born in the Northern Cape, Eastern > Cape or Western Cape the records will be in the Cape Town Archives. Birth > records from Natal would be in the Pietermaritzburg Archives etc. If birth > place is unknown, you can consult the deceased estate papers and look at > the death notice. This should show a place of birth, although often it > gives just the city and not the magisterial district. Next, consult the > index to the birth in the magisterial area in which it was registered. For > a birth in Cape Town you might need to check places like Cape Town > Central, Wynberg, Docks, Green Point, Sea Point, Woodstock, Observatory > etc ? all in separate registers. It varies, but as an example, Worcester > has 62 Birth Registers dating back to 1895. There! > are about four years per register until 1933 and one register per year > thereafter. For Worcester, the earliest reference number is 1/3/57/4/1 and > it covers births from 1895 to June 1905. > Information contained in the birth registers > > Some of these books are very large, heavy and the pages are difficult to > photograph because of their size. Once you have the particular register, > you can get date of birth, child¹s name if given, mother and father, > parents address, when and where the birth was registered, if the child > was legitimate as well as race. Copies of official birth certificates > cannot be issued from the archives and photographs or photocopies of these > registers are not allowed. > > Regards > Heather > Regards Heather From: Denise Igesund via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: Denise Igesund <denise.genealogyresearch@gmail.com>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 7:55 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates I managed to get one by looking at the birth register itself and finding the entry number. I know the KZN registers are in the Pietermaritzburg Archive It id quite long winded getting the information but worth it. I am trying to find out where other provinces are kept. I was able to pick up information on the father of an illegitimate child in the register as well. Regards Denise -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge Pretorius Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM To: SA List Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Dear Listers I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck obtaining such records? I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost impossible - their words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). Kind regards Helge ____________________________________________________________ South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za Cotlands - Shaping tomorrows Heroes http://www.cotlands.org.za/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I managed to get one by looking at the birth register itself and finding the entry number. I know the KZN registers are in the Pietermaritzburg Archive It id quite long winded getting the information but worth it. I am trying to find out where other provinces are kept. I was able to pick up information on the father of an illegitimate child in the register as well. Regards Denise -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Helge Pretorius Sent: 10 April 2014 09:07 AM To: SA List Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Vault copies of birth and marriage certificates Dear Listers I wish to obtain vault copies of the birth certificates and marriage certificates of my grandparents and my husband's grandparents from the Department of Home Affairs (South Africa). The earliest birth was in 1908 and the earliest marriage in 1934. Has anyone had any luck obtaining such records? I have contacted them telephonically and they said that if the person did not have an ID number, it would be very difficult (almost impossible - their words) to find the records. I do know that such records are kept in the archives in Rosslyn (Pretoria). Kind regards Helge ____________________________________________________________ South Africas premier free email service - www.webmail.co.za Cotlands - Shaping tomorrows Heroes http://www.cotlands.org.za/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message