I had a friend (now, alas, no longer with us) who had a twin brother, and their wives were sisters also. He was a staunch Church member (not Mormon!) and there was certainly no impediment to their marriage. Also my friend never re-married, and nor did his wife, so no problems there, and his brother who was widowed rather earlier did re-marry, but to someone totally unrelated, and again no problem. The next generation as far as I know married outside the wider family. Once you get past that stage, however, it becomes a bit problematic continuing intra-family marriage, and the closer the relatives concerned the more problematic it gets. One only has to look at closely inbred Royal Families (Romanov, Hohenzollern, and even Hanover) and some of the upper aristocracies to see just how bad they can be. I believe the ancient laws against such marriages were based on the experience of pastoral peoples with the breeding of their livestock, and these practices, as always in a theistic culture, became part of their religious law. Nowadays we know far more about genetics, and are able to inbreed livestock to a greater extent, but there is also such a thing as social inbreeding. This applies less to less intelligent species; but even so, fancied breeds like bulldogs, spaniels and terriers can suffer terribly from their inbreeding. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com On 04/06/2015, at 5:23 AM, Bart Simon via wrote: > > Hello: Just wondering: A father [AF] has a son [AS]. The father [AF] marries the dg [BD1] of Mr. [BF] in 1900. The son [AS] then marries the other dg of Mr. [BF] being [BD2] in 1901. Or simply, a father and son marry two daughters who have the same father. No law is broken there is it ?. Bart [!!!] .... > === > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On Jun 4, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Andrew Rodger via wrote: > > On 04/06/2015, at 5:23 AM, Bart Simon via wrote: > >> >> Hello: Just wondering: A father [AF] has a son [AS]. The father [AF] marries the dg [BD1] of Mr. [BF] in 1900. The son [AS] then marries the other dg of Mr. [BF] being [BD2] in 1901. Or simply, a father and son marry two daughters who have the same father. No law is broken there is it ?. Bart [!!!] .... I can not seem to keep up with the befuddled-thinking kinds of laws over the generations. Since neither of these couples is related by blood - genetically - only by marriage - there should be no restriction. But the laws are not always logical:-) In any case, inbreeding has to do with the number of homozygous genes and not the closeness of blood relatives, if you are looking for healthy pairs (in any species). You can breed two sibling cats together who TOGETHER can produce high heterozygocity, and the offspring will not be inbred, even if the parents are inbred. And you can find two identical looking but unrelated cats and breed them together and get all inbred kittens. This is where "looks count". Each kitten/child gets one gene of each pair from each parent. (It used to be thought the gene from each parent was a random chance for each but it is not.) The gene pair so formed in the kitten/child either has two genes the SAME or two DIFFERNT genes. Looking at the entire individual's set of gene pairs, the one with the most DIFFERENT pairs (heterozygous gene pairs) is the LEAST inbred, and the one with the most SAME pairs (homozygous gene pairs) regardless whether the two were related or not, is inbred. Heterozygocity causes strength of individual and of immune system, robustness of health, and overall disease resistance. Homozygocity causes ill health, weakness, lack of robustness, smaller size, and poor immmune system. A smart breeder will look for as many DIFFERENT features as possible between whatever anials they wish to breed.' For example, wide ribcage and deep ribcage, not two the same. Long torso and shorter one, broad hips and narrow ones, heavy boning and lighter boning etc...looking for DIFFERENCES all within the breed standard...but with maximum variations. The resultant animals will be stronger, bigger, healthier, emotionally stabe etc, and will look good at shows as a result. Opposites attract, is a good rule here:-) It is the same in humans. I have visited some little towns where people supposedly unrelated marry, but the whole area is so full of the same genes that heterozygocity is impossible to attain, and there is high homozycocity in the entire population. The cheetah popupation is that way. There are so few different genes available to make heterozygous pairs that cheetahs are inbred no matter whether they are related or not. I recently worked with a conservation center where 3 of 8 cheetahs had died before I was contacted to figure it out. (The vet misdiagnosed a feline illness); They actually died of copper deficiency. Only one other animal of another species died, (an Africa lynx- caracul) but 3 out of 8 cheetahs died. More than 36% deaths in one incident is a lot for such an endangered species. Yet ALL animals (and humans) were copper deficient. Turns out the desert soil where the center was located, (in UAE) was almost devoid of copper and thus the animals used for food for the wildlife center, were short of copper, and there was essentially none in the diet. The two tigers who gave birth had no milk (it needs copper), but none died. A young lion got ill but survived. Only low heterozygocity cheetahs actually died before the problem was understood...they are like the "genetic canaries in the mine", the first to show ill effects from ANY health issue. Ill health of offspring is thus due to homogygous gene pairs NOT due to relatedness. In general if unrelated folk marry they should be mainly heterozygous, but if they live in a small population (as in a small area of a new country) or in a small population that is stable with little migration, it does not necessarily follow. But we know this now - nobody knew it a couple centuries ago. And laws do not necessarily keep up. Namaste, Irene -- Irene de Villiers, B.Sc AASCA MCSSA D.I.Hom/D.Vet.Hom. P.O. Box 4703 Spokane WA 99220. www.Furryboots.info (Info on Feline health, genetics, nutrition & homeopathy) "Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt one doing it."

On 4 Jun 2015 at 10:07, F97Russell . via wrote: > My reading of this http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html > seems to imply no laws have been broken but I would be interested in what > others think. > > N.B. this is only English law. And specifically Church of England Canon Law. Secular law in England allows a man to marry his deceased wife's sister or a woman to marry her deceased husband's brother (and some in our family have done that in South Africa too). -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

Hi Jonathan, There is no prohibition in the Bible against a man marrying his wife's sister AFTER his first wife died. In fact it is not uncommon and I have such an instance in my wife's family tree. I heard of a more unusual scenario recently. Man marries wife and they divorce after a number of years. He then dies and a younger brother then marries his sister-in-law (his deceased brother's ex-wife)! Louis Zetler Hoshaya, Israel -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Gentry via Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 3:23 PM To: Bart Simon; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Marriages [!!!] Hi, Just to add that just because it was unlawful does not mean it never happened. I would not be here if my Great-Grandfather not not 'married' the sister of his late wife in 1864 ! There is also an 1908 nice-uncle marriage in the tree. That happy couple emigrated from England to Texas. Cheers Jonathan in Toronto, Canada On 4 June 2015 at 05:54, Bart Simon via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello: I forgot the 1949 version mentioned [Half Aunt/Uncle]. If your > father marries [daughter 1], she become your step mother, her sister > becomes your step aunt, and you can't marry her. If [daughter 1] dies, > you can then marry [daughter 2]. However 5 sons from family [1] can > marry 5 daughters from family [2], if those families were otherwise > unrelated within the bounds of the table of affinity etc. It seems if > the father marries [daughter 1] and she dies, he can then go and marry > [daughter 2]. Bart [!!!] .... > -----Original Message----- > http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html > ------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Good evening all Could SKS please assist with a look up on the 1984 SA Voters roll for the following FARMER family: Terrence Richard FARMER – Born 9.12.1921 Indiana Gibb FARMER – Born 03.01.1926 Patrick John FARMER – Born in the 1920’s and Marjorie Barbara MUNRO (Born FARMER – d.o.b 31.03.1921 and her husband James Hugh MUNRO born 26.10.1929 I would like to also know if there are any other persons residing at the same address Any help would be much appreciated. Regards Bryan Dix

Hello: I forgot the 1949 version mentioned [Half Aunt/Uncle]. If your father marries [daughter 1], she become your step mother, her sister becomes your step aunt, and you can't marry her. If [daughter 1] dies, you can then marry [daughter 2]. However 5 sons from family [1] can marry 5 daughters from family [2], if those families were otherwise unrelated within the bounds of the table of affinity etc. It seems if the father marries [daughter 1] and she dies, he can then go and marry [daughter 2]. Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message----- http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html -------------------------------

My reading of this http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html seems to imply no laws have been broken but I would be interested in what others think. N.B. this is only English law. Phil Curtis Brittany, France. On 3 June 2015 at 21:52, Nivard Ovington via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > It would depend upon the jurisdiction but suspect the same would apply > in South Africa as England at the time > > On marriage of the father to the first lady the son of the father would > become the nephew of the first ladies sister > > Forbidden degrees state that a man cannot marry his aunt > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 03/06/2015 20:23, Bart Simon via wrote: > > Hello: Just wondering: A father [AF] has a son [AS]. The father [AF] > > marries the dg [BD1] of Mr. [BF] in 1900. The son [AS] then marries > > the other dg of Mr. [BF] being [BD2] in 1901. Or simply, a father and > > son marry two daughters who have the same father. No law is broken > > there is it ?. Bart [!!!] .... === > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi, Just to add that just because it was unlawful does not mean it never happened. I would not be here if my Great-Grandfather not not 'married' the sister of his late wife in 1864 ! There is also an 1908 nice-uncle marriage in the tree. That happy couple emigrated from England to Texas. Cheers Jonathan in Toronto, Canada On 4 June 2015 at 05:54, Bart Simon via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello: I forgot the 1949 version mentioned [Half Aunt/Uncle]. If your > father > marries [daughter 1], she become your step mother, her sister becomes your > step aunt, and you can't marry her. If [daughter 1] dies, you can then > marry > [daughter 2]. However 5 sons from family [1] can marry 5 daughters from > family [2], if those families were otherwise unrelated within the bounds of > the table of affinity etc. It seems if the father marries [daughter 1] and > she dies, he can then go and marry [daughter 2]. Bart [!!!] .... > -----Original Message----- > http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html > ------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello: Just wondering: A father [AF] has a son [AS]. The father [AF] marries the dg [BD1] of Mr. [BF] in 1900. The son [AS] then marries the other dg of Mr. [BF] being [BD2] in 1901. Or simply, a father and son marry two daughters who have the same father. No law is broken there is it ?. Bart [!!!] .... ===

It would depend upon the jurisdiction but suspect the same would apply in South Africa as England at the time On marriage of the father to the first lady the son of the father would become the nephew of the first ladies sister Forbidden degrees state that a man cannot marry his aunt Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 03/06/2015 20:23, Bart Simon via wrote: > Hello: Just wondering: A father [AF] has a son [AS]. The father [AF] > marries the dg [BD1] of Mr. [BF] in 1900. The son [AS] then marries > the other dg of Mr. [BF] being [BD2] in 1901. Or simply, a father and > son marry two daughters who have the same father. No law is broken > there is it ?. Bart [!!!] .... ===

Hi Bart, I forgot to ask you to help me understand your reasoning in the first paragraph about the role of THOMAS ROWAN CAMPBELL in the divorce case? Regards, Albie -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 2:21 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: [Austin Gibson (1906-?)]: [Speculation Only]: NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE THOMAS ROWAN CAMPBELL VERSUS FLORENCE HILDA (BORN PAVALL) AND AUSTIN GIBSON. 1936]: This should be him. This is quite an interesting brief item. [ROWAN CAMPBELL] is a clear indentifier for this Campbell line, possible origins in Durban ?, then some to Jhb, and one buried in West Park Cemetery. I suspect [PAVALL] is [POVALL] ?. One can note: [AND AUSTIN GIBSON]. There is an earlier? [Walter Povall m. Jessie Campbell] maybe Durban ???, not sure. [FLORENCE HILDA POVALL?] I suspect will almost undoubtedly connect to this whole POVELL family ?. The Jhb records needed don't seem to be transcribed yet, and others. One [George Maurice Povall] lived in Springs. I would truly get into this POVALL + CAMPBELL tree chunk, even if no Gibson m. into either, but will be good to know more. I see several possible 'chunks' like this in your tree: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]: He would undoubtedly connect to your other [Cavanagh] ?. [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]: I assume this [AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH] means he had something to do with the divorce ?. Since the following year as given we have: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]. NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]. [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH (FORMERLY CLARKE BORN POVALL) VERSUS SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1944]. [EX PARTE APPLICATION. MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH. 1944]. 1-2-3 Martha ?. = ILLIQUID CASE. GEORGE MORRIS POVALL VERSUS THACKERY JAMES ALLISON AND ANTHONY FRANCIS FRARA IN THEIR CAPACITIES AS EXECUTORS TESTAMENTARY OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE THOMAS CLARK VERSUS MARTHA RICE, WIFE OF AND DULY ASSISTED BY BERTIE RICE AND DONALD LAMONT MCGILLEWIE, IN HIS CAPACITY AS THE EXECUTOR DATIVE OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE IRENE MARION CLARK. 1909. DIVORCE LILIAN VIOLET MAUDE RICE (BORN CLARK) VERSUS WILLIAM. 1947. CLARK, ADA HELEN. (BORN RICE) (S/S LESLIE DONALD). 1932-1953. RAMSAY, MARTHA ELIZABETH. FORMERLY CLARK, BORN POVALL. SURVIVING SPOUSE JAMES ADAM RAMSAY. PREDECEASED SPOUSE THOMAS CLARK. 1963-1963. POVALL, PERCY JAMES. EGGENOTE: GERTRUDE MURRAY (GEBORE COWEY). 1912. = Other: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-VQC https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-G38 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-23578-42929-32 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDC1-PT4 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=1758729 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2248368 = Austin Gibson could have offspring, but too recent to say yet. Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message----- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bart, Thank you very much for your efforts in helping and at least I now know that Austin was married. I tried to pursue the other leads but could not get any further leads. The Cavanagh's as I now have it lived in Newcastle upon Tyne and it is not clear if they had any contact. Thanks again Albie -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 2:21 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: [Austin Gibson (1906-?)]: [Speculation Only]: NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE THOMAS ROWAN CAMPBELL VERSUS FLORENCE HILDA (BORN PAVALL) AND AUSTIN GIBSON. 1936]: This should be him. This is quite an interesting brief item. [ROWAN CAMPBELL] is a clear indentifier for this Campbell line, possible origins in Durban ?, then some to Jhb, and one buried in West Park Cemetery. I suspect [PAVALL] is [POVALL] ?. One can note: [AND AUSTIN GIBSON]. There is an earlier? [Walter Povall m. Jessie Campbell] maybe Durban ???, not sure. [FLORENCE HILDA POVALL?] I suspect will almost undoubtedly connect to this whole POVELL family ?. The Jhb records needed don't seem to be transcribed yet, and others. One [George Maurice Povall] lived in Springs. I would truly get into this POVALL + CAMPBELL tree chunk, even if no Gibson m. into either, but will be good to know more. I see several possible 'chunks' like this in your tree: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]: He would undoubtedly connect to your other [Cavanagh] ?. [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]: I assume this [AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH] means he had something to do with the divorce ?. Since the following year as given we have: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]. NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]. [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH (FORMERLY CLARKE BORN POVALL) VERSUS SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1944]. [EX PARTE APPLICATION. MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH. 1944]. 1-2-3 Martha ?. = ILLIQUID CASE. GEORGE MORRIS POVALL VERSUS THACKERY JAMES ALLISON AND ANTHONY FRANCIS FRARA IN THEIR CAPACITIES AS EXECUTORS TESTAMENTARY OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE THOMAS CLARK VERSUS MARTHA RICE, WIFE OF AND DULY ASSISTED BY BERTIE RICE AND DONALD LAMONT MCGILLEWIE, IN HIS CAPACITY AS THE EXECUTOR DATIVE OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE IRENE MARION CLARK. 1909. DIVORCE LILIAN VIOLET MAUDE RICE (BORN CLARK) VERSUS WILLIAM. 1947. CLARK, ADA HELEN. (BORN RICE) (S/S LESLIE DONALD). 1932-1953. RAMSAY, MARTHA ELIZABETH. FORMERLY CLARK, BORN POVALL. SURVIVING SPOUSE JAMES ADAM RAMSAY. PREDECEASED SPOUSE THOMAS CLARK. 1963-1963. POVALL, PERCY JAMES. EGGENOTE: GERTRUDE MURRAY (GEBORE COWEY). 1912. = Other: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-VQC https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-G38 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-23578-42929-32 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDC1-PT4 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=1758729 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2248368 = Austin Gibson could have offspring, but too recent to say yet. Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message----- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello: [Austin Gibson (1906-?)]: [Speculation Only]: NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE THOMAS ROWAN CAMPBELL VERSUS FLORENCE HILDA (BORN PAVALL) AND AUSTIN GIBSON. 1936]: This should be him. This is quite an interesting brief item. [ROWAN CAMPBELL] is a clear indentifier for this Campbell line, possible origins in Durban ?, then some to Jhb, and one buried in West Park Cemetery. I suspect [PAVALL] is [POVALL] ?. One can note: [AND AUSTIN GIBSON]. There is an earlier? [Walter Povall m. Jessie Campbell] maybe Durban ???, not sure. [FLORENCE HILDA POVALL?] I suspect will almost undoubtedly connect to this whole POVELL family ?. The Jhb records needed don't seem to be transcribed yet, and others. One [George Maurice Povall] lived in Springs. I would truly get into this POVALL + CAMPBELL tree chunk, even if no Gibson m. into either, but will be good to know more. I see several possible 'chunks' like this in your tree: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]: He would undoubtedly connect to your other [Cavanagh] ?. [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]: I assume this [AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH] means he had something to do with the divorce ?. Since the following year as given we have: [Martha Elizabeth Povall m:1916 Sidney Cavanagh]. NAAIRS: [ILLIQUID CASE: DIVORCE. BERTIE RICE VERSUS MARTHA RICE (BORN CLARK) AND SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1915]. [ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH (FORMERLY CLARKE BORN POVALL) VERSUS SIDNEY CAVANAGH. 1944]. [EX PARTE APPLICATION. MARTHA ELIZABETH CAVANAGH. 1944]. 1-2-3 Martha ?. = ILLIQUID CASE. GEORGE MORRIS POVALL VERSUS THACKERY JAMES ALLISON AND ANTHONY FRANCIS FRARA IN THEIR CAPACITIES AS EXECUTORS TESTAMENTARY OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE THOMAS CLARK VERSUS MARTHA RICE, WIFE OF AND DULY ASSISTED BY BERTIE RICE AND DONALD LAMONT MCGILLEWIE, IN HIS CAPACITY AS THE EXECUTOR DATIVE OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE IRENE MARION CLARK. 1909. DIVORCE LILIAN VIOLET MAUDE RICE (BORN CLARK) VERSUS WILLIAM. 1947. CLARK, ADA HELEN. (BORN RICE) (S/S LESLIE DONALD). 1932-1953. RAMSAY, MARTHA ELIZABETH. FORMERLY CLARK, BORN POVALL. SURVIVING SPOUSE JAMES ADAM RAMSAY. PREDECEASED SPOUSE THOMAS CLARK. 1963-1963. POVALL, PERCY JAMES. EGGENOTE: GERTRUDE MURRAY (GEBORE COWEY). 1912. = Other: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-VQC https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCK-G38 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-23578-42929-32 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDC1-PT4 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=1758729 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2248368 = Austin Gibson could have offspring, but too recent to say yet. Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message-----

Transcribed from originals at the British Library http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/grahamstown-journal/1215-grahamstown-journal-1866-3-july-to-september Sue

Hi Bart, Thank you so much for your trouble and giving me the benefit of your experience! I could now update my records and let go of certain false hopes. It seems that my only hope of finding a living relative lies now with Austin Gibson and the two sons of Walter Clement Gibson & Perla Marie (Siedle) Gibson. A member of the Siedle family, Lance Siedle, gave me the following information but I am totally unsuccessful in getting any confirmation or details of it although I am pretty sure it must be fairly correct: (1) Clement Roy Gibson was married to Sheila O'Reily before he left SA for the WWII in Europe in 1944 and a child was born the same year of his death in Italy but no mention was later but it seemed mother and child moved to the Transvaal. (ii) Karl Walter Barry Gibson (1919-199) married Alice Olive May Matthews and had two children (a) Barry Angus Gibson (1947-1999) and Lesley-May Gibson (1948-?) Albie Gibson -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:39 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: = Charles Edward Gibson (1889-1955): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ He is b:1891 and bp: 10-01-1892. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ9-MZ8 [Image is 2622 not 2623 !!!]: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11694-222200-52 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2828551 Eva Weiss, born Steer: She might be: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-B1BN m1: might be to Cyril Frederick Weiss ?. m1: Maybe one dg Eva Dulcie Weiss ?: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-1L4B https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZS-V1Z = Charles Edward Gibson (1882-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ b:1891 bp:1892. = Robert William Beor Gibson Could be a dead end line ?. 'Beor' is a surname. = ['Barrie']: Could be the correct spelling ?. = https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZQ-MT4 = Pierre Michael Sadler du Toit: NAAIRS: One ref. gives a divorce, the other DR says he is unmarried. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): d:03-10-1956. Inscription: "My Beloved Husband'. Suggests no offspring!. = Austin Gibson (1906-?): NAAIRS: 1950: Criminal case. Will come back on this one!. = My impression is that this family expanded quickly on surname Gibson, but male lines have become very few!. Bart [!!!] ... -----Original Message----- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks Bryan and Bart for your help and I will certainly follow up! >From the history of Harrismith and baptist register (Anglican) of William Beor Gibson a co-signers was a Dr. William Beor and probably a family friend. I also gathered that all of the children was send to school in PMB. A Barry Gibson seems to be a son of Clement Walter Gibson and Marie Perla (Siedle) Gibson. (I have just read her biography but it centres on her career and her direct family. Joy Gibson married and went back to England. Clement Roy Gibson died in action 1814 and I do not know if he had any children. Karl Walter Barry Gibson(1919-1999) is also of my radar and any clue will be welcome. I really appreciate your inputs as I am desperate to find a living member to update this branch of our family as early merchant immigrants to Port natal. Regards, Albie Gibson -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 8:39 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: = Charles Edward Gibson (1889-1955): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ He is b:1891 and bp: 10-01-1892. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ9-MZ8 [Image is 2622 not 2623 !!!]: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11694-222200-52 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2828551 Eva Weiss, born Steer: She might be: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-B1BN m1: might be to Cyril Frederick Weiss ?. m1: Maybe one dg Eva Dulcie Weiss ?: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-1L4B https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZS-V1Z = Charles Edward Gibson (1882-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ b:1891 bp:1892. = Robert William Beor Gibson Could be a dead end line ?. 'Beor' is a surname. = ['Barrie']: Could be the correct spelling ?. = https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZQ-MT4 = Pierre Michael Sadler du Toit: NAAIRS: One ref. gives a divorce, the other DR says he is unmarried. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): d:03-10-1956. Inscription: "My Beloved Husband'. Suggests no offspring!. = Austin Gibson (1906-?): NAAIRS: 1950: Criminal case. Will come back on this one!. = My impression is that this family expanded quickly on surname Gibson, but male lines have become very few!. Bart [!!!] ... -----Original Message----- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello: = Charles Edward Gibson (1889-1955): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ He is b:1891 and bp: 10-01-1892. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZ9-MZ8 [Image is 2622 not 2623 !!!]: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11694-222200-52 http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2828551 Eva Weiss, born Steer: She might be: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-B1BN m1: might be to Cyril Frederick Weiss ?. m1: Maybe one dg Eva Dulcie Weiss ?: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-1L4B https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZS-V1Z = Charles Edward Gibson (1882-?): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ7-NMJ b:1891 bp:1892. = Robert William Beor Gibson Could be a dead end line ?. 'Beor' is a surname. = ['Barrie']: Could be the correct spelling ?. = https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDZQ-MT4 = Pierre Michael Sadler du Toit: NAAIRS: One ref. gives a divorce, the other DR says he is unmarried. = Guy Charles Gibson (1907-?): d:03-10-1956. Inscription: "My Beloved Husband'. Suggests no offspring!. = Austin Gibson (1906-?): NAAIRS: 1950: Criminal case. Will come back on this one!. = My impression is that this family expanded quickly on surname Gibson, but male lines have become very few!. Bart [!!!] ... -----Original Message-----

Hello List, Could anyone help me to get a copy of the Marriage Certificate or Record of my great-great grandparents, George Willett and Catherine (Catharine?) Lawler, who were married in Cape Town on the 31st of May 1864. I'd greatly appreciate the assistance, and/or direction of where I could find this. Thanks, and regards,Wendy

Does any Gibson researcher have any information on Aubrey Wynne GIBSON Aletta Sophia VDS * 12.08.1891 ~ Vryheid 14.02.1892 + 13.09.1919 x Babanango 01.11.1906 Aubrey Wynne GIBSON * 1884 I believe he and Aletta married while awaiting trial. Dorothy -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Keith Meintjes via Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 2:45 PM To: Albie; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family The du Toit branch appears to be a dead end. Irene Ethel and PJ du Toit had one child, a son, Pierre Michael Sadler DuT, who was childless. He was a clerk in Dundee and died at Vryheid Hospital 24.5.1966. This is from the du Toit DVD. I cannot copy the text. In the archives: Document 18 of 41 DEPOT NAB SOURCE RSC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1/5/577 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE I226/1957 PART 1 DESCRIPTION ILLIQUID CASE. DIVORCE. PIERRE MICHAEL SADLER DU TOIT VERSUS RACHELINA MARGARETHA ENGELBERTHA DU TOIT (BORN MEYER). STARTING 19570000 ENDING 19570000 REMARKS I226/57. Document 23 of 41 DEPOT NAB SOURCE MSCE TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1849/1966 PART 1 DESCRIPTION DU TOIT, PIERRE MICHAEL SADLER. BORN IN UTRECHT. UNMARRIED. DECEASED ESTATE. STARTING 19660000 ENDING 19670000 Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: 08:15 AM EDT, 05/31/2015 From: Albie via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> To: "'Bart Simon'" <thewanderer@iburst.co.za>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hi Bart, I am not sure how to proceed and hoped to find a living relative as my information stops with Robert Gibson (married L.A. Sadler) in Harrismith and their Children: Robert William Beor Gibson (1883-1923)x E.W.Mcnair Irene Ethel Gibson(1885-1970)x Pieter Jacobus du Toit Charles Edward Gibson(1889-1955) Clement Walter Gibson(1889-1958)x Perla Marie Siedle Austin Gibson(1906-?) Guy Charles Gibson(1907-?) Any advice will be appreciated Albie Gibson -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:12 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: Which family member would that be?. Bart. -----Original Message----- I am hoping to find a family member of our Harrismith-Natal, Gibson/Siedle/Sadler family that started with: Robert Thompson Gibson (1823 North Shields-1868 PMB) and the children of his sons: Robert Gibson (1856-PMB-1930 Harrismith) Walter Peel Gibson (1858 PMB-1939 Richmond, KZN) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Bart The Gibsons and Siedle's are well connected with Glenwood High School in Durban. The boarding establishment is Gibson House and the library has loads of history and some photographs. One of the Siedle's was the famed "Lady in White" who sang to returning seaman during the war. Regards Bryan -----Original Message----- From: Albie via Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 2:12 PM To: 'Bart Simon' ; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hi Bart, I am not sure how to proceed and hoped to find a living relative as my information stops with Robert Gibson (married L.A. Sadler) in Harrismith and their Children: Robert William Beor Gibson (1883-1923)x E.W.Mcnair Irene Ethel Gibson(1885-1970)x Pieter Jacobus du Toit Charles Edward Gibson(1889-1955) Clement Walter Gibson(1889-1958)x Perla Marie Siedle Austin Gibson(1906-?) Guy Charles Gibson(1907-?) Any advice will be appreciated Albie Gibson -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:12 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Lost Gibson family Hello: Which family member would that be?. Bart. -----Original Message----- I am hoping to find a family member of our Harrismith-Natal, Gibson/Siedle/Sadler family that started with: Robert Thompson Gibson (1823 North Shields-1868 PMB) and the children of his sons: Robert Gibson (1856-PMB-1930 Harrismith) Walter Peel Gibson (1858 PMB-1939 Richmond, KZN) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message