Dear Listers I am genetically-challenged by my great-great-grandmother, Cecilia/Cecelia Margaret Frances/Francis (nee Duncan). What I have unearthed to date is the following: Birth year: 1847 in either England or Scotland. (she was described as a "broad scot") Date of death: unknown, but may have been in South Africa either in the Eastern Cape or in Durban Siblings: George Duncan, James Duncan Father: first name unknown but said to be "of private means". Surname Duncan Mother: called "Lucy" but this may have been a nickname. Maiden name unknown but also said to have been "of private means". Lucy came out to South Africa after her husband died and may have died in the Eastern Cape ­ possibly Queenstown, where Cecelia/Cecilia Margaret Frances/Francis worked for the Lovemore family on their family farm for some time. Husband: First name unknown. Surname Frances/Francis. The son of an Anglican Reverend Frances/Francis and said to have been living in Lancashire. Children: Margaret who died "young" from pleurisy or pneumonia in South Africa (have not found any records to date), Adelaide who emigrated from South Africa to either America or Australia, Alice possibly born 1878 and married a Mr Armstrong (lawyer or attorney in Eastern Cape), Florence Katherine Louisa (my great-grandmother) born about 1878/1879 and described as a "wealthy Lancastrian lass". It is believed that Florence had a twin brother who died at birth or in his infancy. She married Frederick Harris in 1900 in Port Elizabeth. She died in Durban 26/07/1960 and is buried in Stellawood Cemetery in Durban Cecelia/Cecilia Margaret and her four daughters immigrated to South Africa sometime between 1880 and 1885. This was either because Mr Frances/Francis had died, or because she had decided to leave him (anecdotes attest to her being quite tempestuous!). I came across an 1851 Scottish Census result that looks like a possibility for a couple of reasons: 1. It lists "Cecil Duncan" as a daughter who would be about the right age if my Cecelia/Cecilia was indeed born in 1847; 2. It includes a brother by the name of James; 3. Her mother's name is listed as Louisa, which could conceivably have led to the nickname "Lucy" or my mother may have misheard my grand-mother when she was taking the notes. Louise/Louisa is one of the second names that Cecilia Margaret gave to one of her daughters ­ my great-grandmother: Florence Katharine Louise/Louisa Francis; 4. There is a sibling named Florence, which is a name given to my great-grandmother. County Name Dumfriesshire Parish Name Langholm Enumeration District 5 Enumeration Page 10 Schedule 46 Town/Village Langholm Address George's Street Name Other Name Relationship Condition Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 1841 1861 Spouse Notes Louisa Duncan Head Married 28 F Tailor's Wife England Cecil Duncan Daughter 5 F England Not Alive James Duncan Son 4 M England Not Alive Florence Duncan Daughter 2 F England Not Alive Source Citation 1851 Census, Parish of Langholm, Dumfriesshire, Enumeration Book 5, Page 10, Schedule 46; Index, Maxwell Ancestry (http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=83905046: accessed 09 Apr 2015); Original Source: 1851 Scotland Census, National Records of Scotland, Edinburgh, Scotland. Hoever, Emma Maxwell of Scotland's People advised that she was able to find the Cecil(ia) Duncan mentioned in the record above listed in the UK in 1901. I have searched on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FamilySearch, FreeBMD, FreeCEN, FreeREG, NAAIRS, eGGSA, ScotlandsPeople, subscribed to a number of lists, and probably many more sources that I can't remember. Can anyone point me to database that I have missed, or assist with details.

Thank you Bart! Dear Hannah Knipe Leeson is the last in the Knipe story-and, as we are prone to, we never give up! You have tracked them correctly, and yes, John Knipe is the father of Olive Knipe/Findlay/Swales and his father William and Ada's mother Hannah were brother and sister. Of the Knipe/Benson cousins virtually all came to RSA between 1892-1911. The Peat Place in Whitehaven, was named after Jonathan Peat, William and Hannah's grandfather. He moved the family to Whitehaven after 1856 when his wife Hannah Carter Peat died in Wigton. Ruth, their mother lived in 2 Peat Place until she died in 1898. Jonathan Peat built 1 and 2 Peat Place- and Ada was brought up there as well, in 1 Peat Place. My grandfather is Jonathan Peat Knipe, guess who he was named after??? and he came to SA in Sep 1904. I will look up the divorce-maybe Ada had just got too used to living on her own???? Bev -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bart Simon via Sent: 26 June 2015 04:07 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Hannah Knipe LEESON 1913 Hello: [DIVORCE: THOMAS RICHARDS VERSUS ADA (BORN LEESON FORMERLY BENSON), 1937]: Should probably read: [DIVORCE: THOMAS RICHARDS VERSUS ADA (BORN BENSON FORMERLY LEESON), 1937]?. [!SPECULATION!]: The [John Benson m. Hannah \\]: Hannah might be: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV5Z-QMF : [Hannah Knipe bp:07-07-1844 dg of John + Ruth Knipe of Wigton, Cumberland, England]. Also: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG3X-RL3 : [William Knipe bp:02-03-1842 son of John + Ruth Knipe of Wigton, Cumberland, England]. As you know [Peat Place, Whitehaven, Cumberland] is a place of residence etc., but this place will have much more significance it seems. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2L9-Y74 : [John Knipe (Son of Thomas Knipe) m:03-01-1841 Ruth Peat (Dg of Jonathan Peat) at Wigton]. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQSY-29H : The [John Knipe b:c.1873] there I suspect (guess) is your [John Knipe] father of [Olive Knipe (RSA)] ?. https://familysearch.org/ark:! /61903/1:1:M73F-Z7G : Maybe check him out too. If correct, your [Ada Benson m. Andrew Leeson], her mother was [Hannah Knipe] sister to [William Knipe] whose son was [John Knipe], making Ada Benson + John Knipe first cousins!. Ada’s dg [Hannah Knipe Leeson] is Ada’s mother’s namesake (As such!). https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D47-X74 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXQL-RFC https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT98-4M9 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7FZ-7WB https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J79Y-39X https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JM9V-HR8 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB3D-MQF https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBBH-7VZ https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2TR-RHX https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT98-63Y https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV57-L5M ?. You can check for more offspring and marriages etc. The pinge point is to know Hannah is [Hannah Knipe]. Cheers – Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message----- Hannah Knipe LEESON born Johannesburg 1913, daughter of Andrew LEESON and Ada BENSON married 1905 Whitehaven Cumberland. Andrew LEESON died City Deep 11 Aug 1913. Ada might have remarried, but it would have been after 1927, as I have a passenger record of her, and Hannah [age 14] going to England for Christmas. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello: [DIVORCE: THOMAS RICHARDS VERSUS ADA (BORN LEESON FORMERLY BENSON), 1937]: Should probably read: [DIVORCE: THOMAS RICHARDS VERSUS ADA (BORN BENSON FORMERLY LEESON), 1937]?. [!SPECULATION!]: The [John Benson m. Hannah \\]: Hannah might be: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV5Z-QMF : [Hannah Knipe bp:07-07-1844 dg of John + Ruth Knipe of Wigton, Cumberland, England]. Also: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG3X-RL3 : [William Knipe bp:02-03-1842 son of John + Ruth Knipe of Wigton, Cumberland, England]. As you know [Peat Place, Whitehaven, Cumberland] is a place of residence etc., but this place will have much more significance it seems. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2L9-Y74 : [John Knipe (Son of Thomas Knipe) m:03-01-1841 Ruth Peat (Dg of Jonathan Peat) at Wigton]. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQSY-29H : The [John Knipe b:c.1873] there I suspect (guess) is your [John Knipe] father of [Olive Knipe (RSA)] ?. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M73F-Z7G : Maybe check him out too. If correct, your [Ada Benson m. Andrew Leeson], her mother was [Hannah Knipe] sister to [William Knipe] whose son was [John Knipe], making Ada Benson + John Knipe first cousins!. Ada’s dg [Hannah Knipe Leeson] is Ada’s mother’s namesake (As such!). https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D47-X74 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXQL-RFC https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT98-4M9 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7FZ-7WB https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J79Y-39X https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JM9V-HR8 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB3D-MQF https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBBH-7VZ https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2TR-RHX https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT98-63Y https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NV57-L5M ?. You can check for more offspring and marriages etc. The pinge point is to know Hannah is [Hannah Knipe]. Cheers – Bart [!!!] .... -----Original Message----- Hannah Knipe LEESON born Johannesburg 1913, daughter of Andrew LEESON and Ada BENSON married 1905 Whitehaven Cumberland. Andrew LEESON died City Deep 11 Aug 1913. Ada might have remarried, but it would have been after 1927, as I have a passenger record of her, and Hannah [age 14] going to England for Christmas. -------------------------------

=== DEPOT TAB SOURCE WLD TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 0 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 808/1937 PART 1 DESCRIPTION ILLIQUID CASE DIVORCE THOMAS RICHARDS VERSUS ADA (BORN LEESON FORMERLY BENSON). STARTING 1937 ENDING 1937 === -----Original Message----- Hannah Knipe LEESON born Johannesburg 1913, daughter of Andrew LEESON and Ada BENSON married 1905 Whitehaven Cumberland. Andrew LEESON died City Deep 11 Aug 1913. Ada might have remarried, but it would have been after 1927- as I have a passenger record of her, and Hannah [age 14] going to England for Christmas. -------------------------------

Is there any way of tracking a Hannah Knipe LEESON born Johannesburg 1913, daughter of Andrew LEESON and Ada BENSON married 1905 Whitehaven Cumberland. Andrew LEESON died City Deep 11 Aug 1913. Ada might have remarried -but it would have been after 1927- as I have a passenger record of her, and Hannah [age 14] going to England for Christmas! Many thanks Bev

My books tell me that the word Hottentot was the early Dutch way of saying something they couldn't pronounce. Was it Khoikhoi?? Or something different and could you give me a kind of phonetically idea of what it was? I suspect clicks? I can do those, but how to write them? Thanks all my favourite people. Pat Frykberg

Peter Kirkman, in his book, explains that the word Hottentot is what they say when they walk. Almost the same as left... and...right. John Deare -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Frykberg via Sent: 24 June 2015 01:30 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com; south-africa-cape-town@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] pronunciation please? My books tell me that the word Hottentot was the early Dutch way of saying something they couldn't pronounce. Was it Khoikhoi?? Or something different and could you give me a kind of phonetically idea of what it was? I suspect clicks? I can do those, but how to write them? Thanks all my favourite people. Pat Frykberg ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.6030 / Virus Database: 4365/10083 - Release Date: 06/23/15

It seems no one knows. Try a search on: hottentot word origin. Seems to me they are guessing: Dutch, perhaps from a Nama dancing song, transferred by Dutch sailors to the people themselves, or from German hotteren-totteren ‘stutter’ (with reference to their language, in which clicking sounds are used). Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: 07:36 PM EDT, 06/23/2015 From: Pat Frykberg via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com, south-africa-cape-town@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] pronunciation please? My books tell me that the word Hottentot was the early Dutch way of saying something they couldn't pronounce. Was it Khoikhoi?? Or something different and could you give me a kind of phonetically idea of what it was? I suspect clicks? I can do those, but how to write them? Thanks all my favourite people. Pat Frykberg ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Received Lucky -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karin Serfontein via Sent: 22 June 2015 01:59 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Only a test Testing ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Testing

Transcribed from originals at The British Library http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/grahamstown-journal/1226-grahamstown-journal-1867-4-october-to-december That completes the transcriptions of the images I took on my last visit to The British Library. I'll be off on our annual trip to France and Italy the week after next, but our son hopes to be moving house in London at the end of July so I expect I'll be up there quite a bit and can order in the next batch. Sue

Dear List, Unfortunately I don't have all the Cemetery Recording Project CDs. If Villiers in the OFS has been recorded, may I please ask for a look-up? I am looking for a man named Alfred Nicholson Strong, born 25 December 1881 - he died in Villiers but I have no date of his death. Thank you in advance and have a great day, Karin.

I'm loving these! The account of the 'melancholy fatal accident' had me on the edge of my seat! I eagerly wait for news of my various Grahamstown  ancestors, in particular family of William Atwell Richards.... From: Sue Mackay via <south-africa@rootsweb.com> To: SA List <south-africa-l@rootsweb.com>; ZA-IB List <south-africa-immigrants-british-l@rootsweb.com>; EC List <south-africa-eastern-cape-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2015 10:34 PM Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Extracts from the Grahamstown Journal July - September 1867 Transcribed from originals at the british Library http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/grahamstown-journal/1225-grahamstown-journal-1867-3-july-to-september Sue                         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Transcribed from originals at the british Library http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/grahamstown-journal/1225-grahamstown-journal-1867-3-july-to-september Sue

Hello: There is one William Ramsay that sticks out a bit, not sure if I have the correct person though. [Charlotte Watson m1. David Lancaster]: DL d:1896 RSA. [Charlotte Lancaster m2. William Ramsay]: They had: David Adolphus Ramsay, William Ramsay, Frank Ramsay, Watson Ramsay. Charlotte Ramsay d:1940 Of 44 Harper Avenue, Benoni, South Africa. [William Ramsay]: [Engine Driver]. Their Ramsay children seem to be bp. in Boksburg area. I feel this [William Ramsay] should be further sought regards the Murie tree. The road from the Brenthurst Cemetery Brakpan to 44 Harper Avenue Benoni is literally one single road between these two points. Andrew Findlay (1869-1926): Friend + BiL William Ramsay. It would seem [William Ramsay] would be here in Benoni/Boksburg maybe before [Andrew Findlay] ?. Bart [!!!] .... ===

Good evening all from a c c cold Cape Town, Are there any listers with interests in these two families who have maped the marriages between members of the family. Many of these marriages have roots or ties in the RANDALL family. Any pointers from anyone? Regards Rod g Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

Richard Wolfaardt's team of transcribers has completed the transcription of the passenger lists contained in the Cape Archives classs PWD 2-753, consisting arrivals at Cape Town, between December 1873 and 1876, of 71 ships and 669 immigrant names. These particular listings do not include the names of wives and children when they accompanied male immigrants but do mention that they did so and usually give the age and sex of the children. The surnames of immigrants on this list can be found on here: http://www.eggsa.org/arrivals/surnames_included_in_PWD-2-753.html These transcriptions are included in the eGGSA Passenger List Database which now contains details of 1794 voyages and 79,184 passenger names between 1850 and 1911. http://www.eggsa.org/arrivals/eGGSA%20Passenger%20Project.html Many thanks to Alta Griffiths for photographing the documents, to the Western Cape Archives for permission to do so and to the transcribers: James Anderson, John Deare, Basil G Royston, Ray Pitt and Richard Wolfaardt. Cheers, Richard -- Richard Ball, on behalf of eGGSA http://www.eggsa.org

Dear Rod Do you know that at http://www.e-family.co.za/ (go to CDNI) you have access to references of some of the 1980's Cape Master Office Records? Kind regards Daniel Jacobs www.gendata.co.za Vir gratis Genealogiese Handleiding gaan na *https://www.dropbox.com/home/GENEALOGIESE%20HANDLEIDING# <https://www.dropbox.com/home/GENEALOGIESE%20HANDLEIDING#>* Siebrits/du Toit/Meyer/Zeeman/De Villiers (Franschhoek/Paarl) Jacobs/Oberholster/Smith (Graaff-Reinet/Fauresmith) Le Roux/Van der Merwe (Villiersdorp) Louw/Brink (Kaapstad/Wellington) De Vos (De Doorns/Wellington) Malan (Wellington/Zeerust) Ungerer (Swellendam) Smith (Wellington) On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 7:33 AM, rodg@tiscali.co.za via < south-africa@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Good Morning Darryl,This site is very useful and has helped me a great > deal. However I am looking for an estate in the late 1980's but have not > seen any in those years. Have they been moved to another site or possibly > not yet recorded? > Regards, > Rod g > From: rodg@tiscali.co.za > Sent: 2015/05/19 04:40:31 PM > To: rodg@tiscali.co.za > Cc: > Subject: FW: [ZA-EC] Master of the High Court Online > From: rodg@tiscali.co.za > Sent: 2015/03/05 05:54:48 AM > To: rodg@tiscali.co.za > Cc: > Subject: FW: [ZA-EC] Master of the High Court Online > From: darryl@allwrights.co.za > Sent: 2011/09/10 11:09:40 AM > To: south-africa-eastern-cape@rootsweb.com, > SOUTH-AFRICA-ORANGE-FREE-STATE@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Subject: FW: [ZA-EC] Master of the High Court Online > > HI ALL > > MASTER OF THE HIGH COURT ESTATES UP UNTIL +/- 2008 ARE NOW ONLINE > > The link is https://icmsweb.justice.gov.za/mastersinformation > > DARRYL ALLWRIGHT > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-EASTERN-CAPE-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Selma I have just made contact with a lady that is a Defence Force researcher. If you want her contact details mail me off list at belinfante@telkomsa.net Lucky -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Fay Lea via Sent: 28 May 2015 08:52 PM To: 'Selma Thomas'; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] WW2 query about SA Defence Force soldiers secondedto the Royal Marines Hi Selma, Have you tried the Defence Force here? They are very helpful. Defence Force address Department of Defence Document Centre Private Bag X 289 Pretoria 0001. sandfdoc@mweb.co.za Kind regards Fay -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Selma Thomas via Sent: 28 May 2015 06:50 PM To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] WW2 query about SA Defence Force soldiers secondedto the Royal Marines Can anyone help, please? On 27 December 1943 there were 30 South African who were seconded to the Royal Marines at Eastney Barracks in Portsmouth. They had just completed a tour of duty in the Middle East/North Africa. My father in law was one of these men - we have a photograph of the group taken in front of the barracks and it includes a list of all their names. We have information up to and including D Day and we know that on 24th June he was recalled to the UK and joined 42 Commando. We know that he was sent to Burma and we are hoping that someone else has a father who was also seconded to 42 Commando of the Royal marines from the SA Defence Force and has more information to share about their movements. I will happily scan the photo and dropbox it for anyone else who has a father or uncle on the photo. Thanks, Selma ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Sue! thank you, thank you, so very much. Thanks to you I have found Lucy White - seventh daughter of my ancestor John White of Cradock. With the details of her marriage to KNOWLES - I could search the archives only to find that she and her husband died the year after the marriage. Thank you for your amazing effort for us all. Kind regards Fay Lea -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sue Mackay via Sent: 11 June 2015 01:40 PM To: SA List; ZA-IB List; EC List Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Extracts from the Grahamstown Journal April - June1867 Transcribed from originals at the British Library http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/grahamstown-journal/1221-grahamsto wn-journal-1867-2-april-to-june Sue ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus