Hi, Richard, As always, it seems, you scratch the "facts" to reveal the inconsistencies. We have talked about de Villiers / Pama and SA Genealogies. I looked in Malherbe's "Stamouers van die Afrikanervolk", and in Colenbrander's "De Afkomst der Boeren". I did not find Hendrik Weyer nor any plausible alias mentioned in either. That bothers me a lot. Unreliable as these sources may be, when they agree (except for SAG) I believe they are probably based on independent views of the original documents. When they disagree, my confidence in any of the information drops a lot. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:31:32 PM EST From: Richard Ball <richardonrootsweb@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk> To: Keith Meintjes <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany Hello Keith, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:54:50 PM, you wrote: >> Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. >> You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of >> Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). KM> Yes, based on Hoge, but also on the name (Heinrich, not always KM> Hendrik, and the lack of anything contrary in sources like SA KM> Genealogies.) In my 'relentless search for primary sources' as you call it, although I have not seen the two sources that Hoge quotes and which I mentioned in my earlier email, I have never come across his name given as 'Heinrich'. In the muster rolls he appears, from 1718 until 1722 (the last I have access to) as Weijer Hendrikse & Anna Elisabeth and his wife also as above, never any surname, although it is the usual practice in these lists to list wives with their own surnames. and in such baptismal entries as I have seen, as 1720 d'Vader Weyer Hendrikse, d'Moeder Anna Gerritse 1721 d'Vader Hendrik Weijers, d'Moeder Anna Gerritse 1724 d'Vader Weyer Hendrikx, Moeder Anna Lysbet Gerritse If Anna Lijsbet was indeed the same person as the baptised daugher of Casper Gerritsz, and it seems likely, then her ancestors are here: http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/robberts/I095.html All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Fascinating percentages Keith...I wonder how I managed not to have any German blood (well none I've found yet)...some Dutch...more French Huguenot and a hefty dollop of British (English, Scottish and Welsh). When you add that to my father's increasingly Scottish heritage I'm not the ENGLISH descendant I was brought up to consider myself to be! I'm not disappointed by my richer heritage...I find it fascinating. I'd love to have my DNA tested...my brother has said he will provide the male DNA....I've just got to save the necessary moola... Best wishes, Tombi -----Original Message----- From: Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 0:29 Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers Andrew wrote: > In South Africa the main influx of Germans was following the Crimean War I would disagree. From 1652 up until about 1800, half of all European migrants to South Africa were German. Only about a quarter were from the etherlands. Colenbrander, "De Afkomst der Boeren".) Keith ------ Original Message ------ eceived: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:43:30 PM EST rom: Andrew Rodger <rodgera@audioio.com> o: south-africa@rootsweb.com ubject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers On 16 Nov 2011, at 7:06 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote (snip): > Gerda Thank you also for the information on the Pennsylvania Dutch. Do you mean Grand Rapids, Michigan? I have some friends here in Toronto, Canada whose ancestors were Pennsylvania Dutch (actually Deutch ?- German). Their ancestors arrived in the USA about the same time as the Dutch and Germans arrived in South Africa. In Michigan there must have been Dutch settlers at some time, as I eem to recall a place called Holland somewhere between Grand Rapids nd Detroit from my travels round that State when my daughter lived n Ypsilanti and worked in Ann Arbor some years back. Dutch ettlement in New York was of course roughly contemporaneous with hat in Cape Town (mid-17th Century), but Michigan was still French erritory in those days. In South Africa the main influx of Germans was following the Crimean ar, though there were quite a few in the service of the VOC well efore that: one of mine (HAARHOFF) joined the VOC at Texel in about 715. Andrew Rodger odgera@audioio.com ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the uotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Andrew wrote: > In South Africa the main influx of Germans > was following the Crimean War I would disagree. From 1652 up until about 1800, half of all European emigrants to South Africa were German. Only about a quarter were from the Netherlands. (Colenbrander, "De Afkomst der Boeren".) Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:43:30 PM EST From: Andrew Rodger <rodgera@audioio.com> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers On 16 Nov 2011, at 7:06 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote (snip): > Gerda > > Thank you also for the information on the Pennsylvania Dutch. Do > you mean Grand Rapids, Michigan? I have some friends here in > Toronto, Canada whose ancestors were Pennsylvania Dutch (actually > Deutch ?- German). Their ancestors arrived in the USA about the > same time as the Dutch and Germans arrived in South Africa. In Michigan there must have been Dutch settlers at some time, as I seem to recall a place called Holland somewhere between Grand Rapids and Detroit from my travels round that State when my daughter lived in Ypsilanti and worked in Ann Arbor some years back. Dutch settlement in New York was of course roughly contemporaneous with that in Cape Town (mid-17th Century), but Michigan was still French territory in those days. In South Africa the main influx of Germans was following the Crimean War, though there were quite a few in the service of the VOC well before that: one of mine (HAARHOFF) joined the VOC at Texel in about 1715. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

While not wishing to be a pessimist, I speak of about 20 years experience of dealing with Spoornet and the various other names that they have had from time to time. Don't hold out any hope of receiving a reply. As to the chances of them having the information you seek, I am pretty certain that Spoornet does not have it. I can tell horrifying tales of valuable historical information that has been dumped all over the country. It is just possible that you may find what you want at one of the Archives. Please remember that around the turn of the Century, South African Railways did not exist. The Railways that did exist were: Cape Government Railways Natal Government Railways NZASM - railways in the Transvaal Republic OVGS - railways in the Orange Free State Republic The Pretoria - Pietersburg Railway The Imperial Military Railways - run by the British army during the Boer War The Central South African Railways. This was British controlled which took over from the Imperial Military Railways on 1 July 1902 and ran all the raiways in the Transvaal and Orange Free State, until the formation of South African Railways, in 1910. There were also a few more, privately owned railways. If you know where your ancestors lived, I would suggest that you try the Archives for that area. I know, for example that the Cape Archives has a great deal of material on the Cape Government Railways. Good Luck. Wally Greig

Hello Keith, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 3:54:50 PM, you wrote: >> Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. >> You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of >> Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). KM> Yes, based on Hoge, but also on the name (Heinrich, not always KM> Hendrik, and the lack of anything contrary in sources like SA KM> Genealogies.) In my 'relentless search for primary sources' as you call it, although I have not seen the two sources that Hoge quotes and which I mentioned in my earlier email, I have never come across his name given as 'Heinrich'. In the muster rolls he appears, from 1718 until 1722 (the last I have access to) as Weijer Hendrikse & Anna Elisabeth and his wife also as above, never any surname, although it is the usual practice in these lists to list wives with their own surnames. and in such baptismal entries as I have seen, as 1720 d'Vader Weyer Hendrikse, d'Moeder Anna Gerritse 1721 d'Vader Hendrik Weijers, d'Moeder Anna Gerritse 1724 d'Vader Weyer Hendrikx, Moeder Anna Lysbet Gerritse If Anna Lijsbet was indeed the same person as the baptised daugher of Casper Gerritsz, and it seems likely, then her ancestors are here: http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/robberts/I095.html All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk

I am getting my Dutch passport soon and it will be in my maiden name, as is the custom. Whilst I agree with everything you are saying, I just want to note that whilst Gerrits (son of Gerrit) could easily become a fixed surname anywheer along the line from the VOC payroll to Napoleon's decree, Gerritsdochter would not, because her offspring would use their father's name as patronymic (pater being father), or their father's surname as their surname, if he already had one. In Frisia the suffix dochter died out fairly early and son was used for both genders. In Scandinavia it is still used as Son and Dottir in some places. Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johann Hanekom" <johann@hanekom.org> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers > Bruce > > Patronymics, and how they got translated into Afrikaans family names, can > get a bit messy at times - especially since there does not seem to be any > consistency in how they were used. > > A fixed family name only became a legal requirement subsequent to a Dutch > law made by Napoleon in about 1815, which essentially means that > GEERITSDOCHTER was perfectly acceptable as a name, or means of > identification, before then. > > I don't know if it still holds true, but until fairly recently it was > quite > possible for members of one family unit in one of the Scandinavian > countries > all to have different family names. > > The husband could be (say) Holger Svensson (son of Sven) , his wife Helga > Jensdottir (daughter of Jens), since she did not adopt her husband's > family > name. Their son would be Per Holgersson (son of Holger), and their > daughter > Inge Holgersdottir (daughter of Holger > > Johann

> Casrar Gerrits Should be Caspar Keith

Hi,Johann, Thanks,I've learnt something new today Bruce -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Johann Hanekom Sent: 16 November 2011 10:42 To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers Bruce Patronymics, and how they got translated into Afrikaans family names, can get a bit messy at times - especially since there does not seem to be any consistency in how they were used. A fixed family name only became a legal requirement subsequent to a Dutch law made by Napoleon in about 1815, which essentially means that GEERITSDOCHTER was perfectly acceptable as a name, or means of identification, before then. I don't know if it still holds true, but until fairly recently it was quite possible for members of one family unit in one of the Scandinavian countries all to have different family names. The husband could be (say) Holger Svensson (son of Sven) , his wife Helga Jensdottir (daughter of Jens), since she did not adopt her husband's family name. Their son would be Per Holgersson (son of Holger), and their daughter Inge Holgersdottir (daughter of Holger Johann Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:41:29 +0200 From: "bruce" <bruce@unibind.co.za> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000c01cca39c$4a08ad10$de1a0730$@co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sonia, I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means daughter of Gerrits. Bruce ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Richard, > Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. > You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of > Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). Yes, based on Hoge, but also on the name (Heinrich, not always Hendrik, and the lack of anything contrary in sources like SA Genealogies.) > does not mention her parents - Hoge is assuming, unless there > is some other evidence he does not quote. Her parents are also stated in my copy (1981)of de Villiers / Pama. In SA Genealogies 2 p. 431 (GERRITS) there is the baptism of b3 Anna Elizabeth = Kaapstad 18.10.1699. It gives her parents as: Casrar Gerrits van Nymegen + Jan. 1719 x Stellenbosch 3.5.1693 Elsje SPELDENBERG (Pyl) = Kaapstad 6.11.1679 d.v. Hendrik Speldenberg en Adriana Gabrielse v.d.K. > this is, of course, a secondary source. I would say tertiary, if that. A primary source is a record made close to the date of the event, for example, the date of birth on a birth certificate. A secondary source is a record made not close to the event, for example, a birth date on a death notice. Or, a birth or a death date on a gravestone. On this sort of scale SA Genealogies would qualify as gossip and hearsay which, in my book, is about correct. ;-) I have this sort of probabilistic view of genealogy. A baptism date in a church register is about 95%, a birth date in a baptism record is about 85%, a referenced entry in Hoge is about 50%, any entry in de Villiers / Pama is about 25%, SA Genealogies is about 15%, etc. Given that confidence scale, I am then quite prepared to quote from sources like SA Genealogies. If there is a "fact" in SA Genealogies that is not very important to me, I will quote it and move on. Richard Ball has a somewhat different philosophy, in his relentless quest for primary sources. I believe he explains that on his website, http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk > with our genealogical programs and gigantic hard disk and no shortage of space That is a two-edged sword. Errors are copied and propagate everywhere, and are impossible to correct. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 04:34:18 AM EST From: Richard Ball <richardonrootsweb@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk> To: Keith Meintjes <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany Hello Keith and Sonia, Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). KM> Hoge: "Personalia of the Germans at the Cape" KM> Quote: KM> WEYERS, HEINRICH, also called WEYER, HENDRIKS.- Epe. Arr. KM> 1702 as so., wagon-driver 1705, b. 1714. married 1.5.1718 Anna KM> Elisabeth Gerritsdogter, i.e. d. of Caspar Gerrits of Nimwegen KM> and Elsje Speldenberg, bapt. 18.10.1699. 3 children. KM> Died 5.8.1725. (GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172.) KM> Another daughter of W. seems to have been Adriana Weyers, KM> bapt. 29.9 .1748 at Stellenbosch as grown-up person, married KM> to Johann Martin Schwebler (q.v.) and Christoffel Heyske (q.v.). Place of birth is something which was usually recorded by the VOC and also usually appears in marriage registers of the Nederduits Gereformeerde Kerk (as it existed at the Cape in the VOC period). In this case the marriage which Hoge cites, which is in the Stellenbosch Church registers, gives his name as Wyer Hendrikz and his place of birth as 'Erpen' - no country mentioned. Incidentally, the marriage entry: 1718 1 Maij - Wyer Hendrikz van Epen jongman met Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdogter does not mention her parents - Hoge is assuming, unless there is some other evidence he does not quote. Hoge is generally reliable and quotes his sources, in this case: GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172 These cryptic references refer to: Generale Monsterrollen (VOC muster rolls) 1704-5, and presumably to the muster rolls of VOC employees. These usually state place of birth, although the country is seldom included. These particular muster rolls seem to have been published by the TEPC Project (Cape Town) but I do not have a copy - it would be interesting to see the exact entry. VC 56 (Cape Archives Verbatim Copies) is a transcript, listed as: Alphabetical list of persons appearing on the rolls of the letters of freedom issued at the Cape for the Chamber of Zeeland 1718-1791 G.R. nr 172 - refers to the of 1894 publication, compiled by G.M. Theal from the work of C.C. de Villiers, in three volumes, can be found in Adobe Acrobat pdf format on the University of Pretoria's web site: Geslacht-register der oude Kaapsche familien (Genealogies of old Cape families) - this is, of course, a secondary source. https://www.up.ac.za/dspace/simple-search?query=geslacht-register&submit=Go if there is any mention of Germany (or one of its constituent states) as being his birthplace (apart from just the town Epe) then it will be found in the first two references (primary references) above. It would be interesting to see if the country as well as the town is mentioned there. If so it would eliminate all doubts. When Hoge published his monumental study it was relatively easy to check the sources he quoted since in those days (1947) the Chief Archivist would reply to such requests, providing the answer in a typed letter. Nowadays, of course, it would be a much more expensive business. This is one of the reasons why we nowadays, with our genealogical programs and gigantic hard disk and no shortage of space, should record not only the source but also the text of our references, eliminating the need for the work to be done more than once. Charlie Els has written an interesting article about his ancestors which includes some mention of Hendrik Weyers / Weyer Hendrikz http://www.eggsa.org/articles/Els-Johan-Martin.html All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Keith and Sonia, Keith you state: Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. You base this, presumably, on his inclusion in Hoge's Personalia of Germans at the Cape (or do you have other evidence?). KM> Hoge: "Personalia of the Germans at the Cape" KM> Quote: KM> WEYERS, HEINRICH, also called WEYER, HENDRIKS.- Epe. Arr. KM> 1702 as so., wagon-driver 1705, b. 1714. married 1.5.1718 Anna KM> Elisabeth Gerritsdogter, i.e. d. of Caspar Gerrits of Nimwegen KM> and Elsje Speldenberg, bapt. 18.10.1699. 3 children. KM> Died 5.8.1725. (GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172.) KM> Another daughter of W. seems to have been Adriana Weyers, KM> bapt. 29.9 .1748 at Stellenbosch as grown-up person, married KM> to Johann Martin Schwebler (q.v.) and Christoffel Heyske (q.v.). Place of birth is something which was usually recorded by the VOC and also usually appears in marriage registers of the Nederduits Gereformeerde Kerk (as it existed at the Cape in the VOC period). In this case the marriage which Hoge cites, which is in the Stellenbosch Church registers, gives his name as Wyer Hendrikz and his place of birth as 'Erpen' - no country mentioned. Incidentally, the marriage entry: 1718 1 Maij - Wyer Hendrikz van Epen jongman met Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdogter does not mention her parents - Hoge is assuming, unless there is some other evidence he does not quote. Hoge is generally reliable and quotes his sources, in this case: GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172 These cryptic references refer to: Generale Monsterrollen (VOC muster rolls) 1704-5, and presumably to the muster rolls of VOC employees. These usually state place of birth, although the country is seldom included. These particular muster rolls seem to have been published by the TEPC Project (Cape Town) but I do not have a copy - it would be interesting to see the exact entry. VC 56 (Cape Archives Verbatim Copies) is a transcript, listed as: Alphabetical list of persons appearing on the rolls of the letters of freedom issued at the Cape for the Chamber of Zeeland 1718-1791 G.R. nr 172 - refers to the of 1894 publication, compiled by G.M. Theal from the work of C.C. de Villiers, in three volumes, can be found in Adobe Acrobat pdf format on the University of Pretoria's web site: Geslacht-register der oude Kaapsche familien (Genealogies of old Cape families) - this is, of course, a secondary source. https://www.up.ac.za/dspace/simple-search?query=geslacht-register&submit=Go if there is any mention of Germany (or one of its constituent states) as being his birthplace (apart from just the town Epe) then it will be found in the first two references (primary references) above. It would be interesting to see if the country as well as the town is mentioned there. If so it would eliminate all doubts. When Hoge published his monumental study it was relatively easy to check the sources he quoted since in those days (1947) the Chief Archivist would reply to such requests, providing the answer in a typed letter. Nowadays, of course, it would be a much more expensive business. This is one of the reasons why we nowadays, with our genealogical programs and gigantic hard disk and no shortage of space, should record not only the source but also the text of our references, eliminating the need for the work to be done more than once. Charlie Els has written an interesting article about his ancestors which includes some mention of Hendrik Weyers / Weyer Hendrikz http://www.eggsa.org/articles/Els-Johan-Martin.html All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk

Bruce Patronymics, and how they got translated into Afrikaans family names, can get a bit messy at times - especially since there does not seem to be any consistency in how they were used. A fixed family name only became a legal requirement subsequent to a Dutch law made by Napoleon in about 1815, which essentially means that GEERITSDOCHTER was perfectly acceptable as a name, or means of identification, before then. I don't know if it still holds true, but until fairly recently it was quite possible for members of one family unit in one of the Scandinavian countries all to have different family names. The husband could be (say) Holger Svensson (son of Sven) , his wife Helga Jensdottir (daughter of Jens), since she did not adopt her husband's family name. Their son would be Per Holgersson (son of Holger), and their daughter Inge Holgersdottir (daughter of Holger Johann Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:41:29 +0200 From: "bruce" <bruce@unibind.co.za> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000c01cca39c$4a08ad10$de1a0730$@co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sonia, I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means daughter of Gerrits. Bruce

Sonia, Heinrich WEYER(S) was from Germany. Your information seems to be mostly from Hoge: "Personalia of the Germans at the Cape", though it is slightly garbled. Here is the exact entry from that book: Quote: WEYERS, HEINRICH, also called WEYER, HENDRIKS.- Epe. Arr. 1702 as so., wagon-driver 1705, b. 1714. married 1.5.1718 Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdogter, i.e. d. of Caspar Gerrits of Nimwegen and Elsje Speldenberg, bapt. 18.10.1699. 3 children. Died 5.8.1725. (GMR 1704-5; V.C. 56; G.R. nr. 172.) Another daughter of W. seems to have been Adriana Weyers, bapt. 29.9 .1748 at Stellenbosch as grown-up person, married to Johann Martin Schwebler (q.v.) and Christoffel Heyske (q.v.). Unquote. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 10:27:30 AM EST From: "Gerda gmail" <gerda.pieterse@gmail.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany It means daughter of Gerrit, not Gerrits, the latter is again a patronymic and means son of. Therefore if she is really Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdochter, she can't be the child of a Caspar, because she would have been A E Casparsdochter. With zoon, or zn or s at the end it (male suffix) it can already be used as a fixed surname, but with dochter at the end - that was just not done. You must therefore look for a different father. Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "bruce" <bruce@unibind.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > Sonia, > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > daughter of Gerrits. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger > Sent: 12 November 2011 03:52 > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > > On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > >> I have another surname that is puzzling me. >> >> My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was >> born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in >> 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 >> to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar >> GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a >> soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. >> >> Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or >> Germany? >> >> Sonia >> Toronto, Canada > > Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in > the Netherlands. > > The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even > after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and > added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice > surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, > "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a > curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named > villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of > Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change > was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than > Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population > is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred > with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the > German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German > character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, > it's just a little way off the A31. > > It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, > only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it > was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the > French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main > phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, > more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was > squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking > countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing > side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the > granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, > Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further > dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). > > As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": > these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the > word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means > "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of > the times you are talking about. > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

hallo Sonia, Yes, I am related to the Laansma and de Vries families of Grand Rapids, Michigan. We knew about them, but they didn't know about us. We are in contact now, though. Pleased you found something useful in Vaasen Gerda

It means daughter of Gerrit, not Gerrits, the latter is again a patronymic and means son of. Therefore if she is really Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdochter, she can't be the child of a Caspar, because she would have been A E Casparsdochter. With zoon, or zn or s at the end it (male suffix) it can already be used as a fixed surname, but with dochter at the end - that was just not done. You must therefore look for a different father. Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "bruce" <bruce@unibind.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > Sonia, > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > daughter of Gerrits. > > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger > Sent: 12 November 2011 03:52 > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > > On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > >> I have another surname that is puzzling me. >> >> My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was >> born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in >> 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 >> to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar >> GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a >> soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. >> >> Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or >> Germany? >> >> Sonia >> Toronto, Canada > > Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in > the Netherlands. > > The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even > after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and > added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice > surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, > "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a > curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named > villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of > Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change > was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than > Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population > is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred > with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the > German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German > character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, > it's just a little way off the A31. > > It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, > only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it > was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the > French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main > phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, > more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was > squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking > countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing > side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the > granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, > Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further > dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). > > As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": > these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the > word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means > "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of > the times you are talking about. > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sonia, I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means daughter of Gerrits. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger Sent: 12 November 2011 03:52 To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > I have another surname that is puzzling me. > > My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was > born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in > 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 > to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar > GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a > soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. > > Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or > Germany? > > Sonia > Toronto, Canada Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in the Netherlands. The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, it's just a little way off the A31. It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of the times you are talking about. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gerda Thank you for the information about Epe, Vaasen & Heerde in the Netherlands. I was able to obtain information from the Vaasen Genealogy Society in regard to the birth of the South African van Heerden and the marriage of his parents. You might find some further information on your family from this Netherlands genealogy society or one near it. They are very active in Holland. Thank you also for the information on the Pennsylvania Dutch. Do you mean Grand Rapids, Michigan? I have some friends here in Toronto, Canada whose ancestors were Pennsylvania Dutch (actually Deutch ?- German). Their ancestors arrived in the USA about the same time as the Dutch and Germany arrived in South Africa. Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden Toronto, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 21:20:20 +0200 From: "Gerda gmail" <gerda.pieterse@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <3138E8A794DF4D5887A53EC0FDEB0104@GERDA> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Andrew, Epe in Gelderland, the Netherlands, lies halfway between Vaasen and Heerde, to the West of Deventer, Overijssel. (Coordinates: 52?21'N 5?59'E) It has always been in the Netherlands and shouldn't be confused with other places named Epe. The Province of Overijssel lies between this Epe and the eastern (German) border. My grandmother was born there and we often visited our family there (on the Veluwe). I think you are referring to Epe, Westphalen and confusing the two. There is also an Epe in Niedersachsen, but the three are different places, just like the two Middelburgs in South Africa. It is important to note that the Province of Gelderland is situated in the mid -eastern Netherlands, and is not part of Holland, which are Provinces (Noord and Zuid) further west. The Netherlands remained neutral in WW1 and expected to remain neutral in WWII, when it was unexpectedly annexed by Germany. They did not side with Germany in WW1 and as far as I know no border shifts took place at that time. The eastern border is much older than the united Germany itself, and has not shifted since 1815, when minor adjustments took place. The Provinces of Overijssel and Gelderland were part of the initial 11 Provinces of the United Netherlands in the sixteenth century. The Pennsylvania Dutch are indeed from the Anabaptist movement from Germany, but the Mennonites, with similar leanings, were followers of the Fryske (Frisian) religious leader Menno Symons. At the moment there is a similar but less severe branch of the Anabaptists in Grand Rapids, which was started by Rev de Neui from Germany, with it's first spitiual leader being my great grand-uncle Douwe Laansma from Makkum, Friesland. The Anabaptists splintered off from the main Church before Luther started the Reformation. It is a very old movement, and was very popular in Germany, East and West Friesland and Groningen wheer life is harsh and austere. The church in Grand Rapids is known as the "Holland Church", doing mainly missionary work under young people. Members of the congregation are known for their plain living. Douwe's mother belonged to the Mennonite movement, and it was from her he recieved his inspiration. They emigrated to Grand Rapids in 1891 (along with most of the young adults from that town!). Gerda Pieterse Richards Bay

Hi   Obituary of James Wilson THOMPSON   James Wilson THOMPSON was converted to God at the age of fifteen and soon after began to preach. His devotion and loyalty to His Master was, in early life, put to a severe test. He bore the trail, rejecting the offer of the world for the sake of the Gospel, and gladly endured the loss of all things for Christ's sake. After a very successful college course he came to South Africa in 1883. In a very short time he became known as a man of more than ordinary ability, and possessed of varied gifts. His preaching was powerful, practical and pointed, and being a gifted speaker, the people heard him gladly. He was also an earnest Evangilist, and in the early part of his ministry he was set apart for special Evangelistic Work. He gained a great influence over men, and many who made no religious profession delighted to hear him preach, and were greatly influenced by his words. He dealt with men faithfully and fearlessly, but gained their hearts. He was generous and large-hearted, and did many things for the sick, the poor and the suffering. His sympathies were so wide and deep that men loved him greatly and were ready to do anything for him, and the influence he gained over men was often very wonderful. Those who knew him best felt that his life was full of great possibilites. During the short but fatal illness which caused him intense suffering he bore frequent testimony to his faith in Jesus Christ. The unseen things of the spirit world were very real to him during these days of suffering. He passed away at Grahamstown on January 13th, 1904, in the forty six year of his age. From: Minutes of Wesleyan Methodist Conference 1904 page 8  Transcribed by Darryl Allwright darryl.allwright@yahoo.com

Andrew, Epe in Gelderland, the Netherlands, lies halfway between Vaasen and Heerde, to the West of Deventer, Overijssel. (Coordinates: 52°21'N 5°59'E) It has always been in the Netherlands and shouldn't be confused with other places named Epe. The Province of Overijssel lies between this Epe and the eastern (German) border. My grandmother was born there and we often visited our family there (on the Veluwe). I think you are referring to Epe, Westphalen and confusing the two. There is also an Epe in Niedersachsen, but the three are different places, just like the two Middelburgs in South Africa. It is important to note that the Province of Gelderland is situated in the mid -eastern Netherlands, and is not part of Holland, which are Provinces (Noord and Zuid) further west. The Netherlands remained neutral in WW1 and expected to remain neutral in WWII, when it was unexpectedly annexed by Germany. They did not side with Germany in WW1 and as far as I know no border shifts took place at that time. The eastern border is much older than the united Germany itself, and has not shifted since 1815, when minor adjustments took place. The Provinces of Overijssel and Gelderland were part of the initial 11 Provinces of the United Netherlands in the sixteenth century. The Pennsylvania Dutch are indeed from the Anabaptist movement from Germany, but the Mennonites, with similar leanings, were followers of the Fryske (Frisian) religious leader Menno Symons. At the moment there is a similar but less severe branch of the Anabaptists in Grand Rapids, which was started by Rev de Neui from Germany, with it's first spitiual leader being my great grand-uncle Douwe Laansma from Makkum, Friesland. The Anabaptists splintered off from the main Church before Luther started the Reformation. It is a very old movement, and was very popular in Germany, East and West Friesland and Groningen wheer life is harsh and austere. The church in Grand Rapids is known as the "Holland Church", doing mainly missionary work under young people. Members of the congregation are known for their plain living. Douwe's mother belonged to the Mennonite movement, and it was from her he recieved his inspiration. They emigrated to Grand Rapids in 1891 (along with most of the young adults from that town!). Gerda Pieterse Richards Bay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rodger" <rodgera@audioio.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany > On 12 Nov 2011, at 4:31 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote: > >> I have another surname that is puzzling me. >> >> My records indicate that Heinrich WEYERS (or Weyer HENDRIKS) was >> born ca 1680 in either Eppe, Germany or Netherlands, christened in >> 1700. He arrived in SA 1702 on the Oostersteen, married May 1, 1718 >> to (Elsje) Anna Elisabeth GERRITSDOCHTER, daughter of Caspar >> GERRITS (GERRYTS) and Elsie (Elisabeth) (PYL) SPELDENBERG. He was a >> soldier and burger 1714, had 3 daughters. >> >> Can anyone advise me whether he was in fact from the Netherlands or >> Germany? >> >> Sonia >> Toronto, Canada > > Epe is in Germany, but only maybe 10 kilometres SSE of Enschede in > the Netherlands. > > The western border of German has been changed a number of times, even > after World War I when a slab of territory was taken from Germany and > added to Belgium in exchange for Belgium ceding a similar slice > surrounding Dunkerk to France. (Its Flemish name was Duinekerke, > "the Church on the Dunes", and its current name is Dunkerque, a > curious hybrid spelling.) There are still a few Flemish-named > villages remaining in France: for example, Marck, just west of > Dunkirk; the village of Oost-Duinekerke is in Belgium. That change > was made linguistic grounds, the population being more French than > Flemish-speaking, but to this day perhaps 10% of Belgium's population > is German-speaking. I don't know whether similar changes occurred > with the Dutch border, bearing in mind that the Dutch were on the > German side in that war, but Epe could possibly be of partly German > character; nevertheless it is now in Germany. If you have a map, > it's just a little way off the A31. > > It needs to be borne in mind that "Germany", as a political entity, > only came into existence in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian War; it > was whittled down from around 360 separate princely States before the > French Revolution to its present number of around 13 or 14. The main > phases were: some amalgamations after the French Revolutionary Wars, > more consolidation after the Franco-Prussian War when Austria was > squeezed out because of its control of huge non-German-speaking > countries, and the further changes when Austria, also on the losing > side, was stripped of most of its territory after World War I by the > granting of autonomy to those countries as Yugoslavia, > Czechoslovakia, etc (and those countries have been further > dismembered by ethnic squabbles since Soviet control collapsed). > > As an aside, there are also people known as "Pennsylvania Dutch": > these are actually descendants of German immigrants. Indeed, the > word "Dutch" has a clear etymological link to Deutsch which means > "German". So both terms have to be used carefully in the context of > the times you are talking about. > > Andrew Rodger > rodgera@audioio.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Gerda You seem to have hit pay dirt. I applied here in JHB for my grandfathers birth certificate 18 months ago and have still had no luck. I need it to find his mother's name as his death notice shows only his father's name which is the same as his. The NG church where he might have been baptized in Ventersdorp had a fire in the 1920's and many records were lost. So I have a brick wall with my own grand father and with the name Wynand Johannes PRETORIUS, I might as well go deep sea diving Lucky > Maybe I am a bit late for this reply, but I have just received my father's > information from Home Affairs and he never had the new number - in fact > his > number doesn't even convey that he was a citizen yet, and is still his > 'alien' number although he had been a citizen for some years already.

> The number I have is on her death certificate. > ID 348/784 299 > > Her brothers ID was 324 886644W. > I am not sure how the ID number use to work.. Hi The only use I can think of for the old ID Numbers is that to start off with the were issued sequentially. If 324 886644W applied to someone in our family 324 886641W was my father's 324 886642W was my mother's 324 886643W was mine as the eldest child 324 886644W was my sister's, next eldest and the W indicated that we were white I cannot remember what the other 3 children's ID numbers were (or if they had the old numbers) and I cannot remember when they were issued. So it MAY be possible to prove relationships with these ID numbers and the reason a brother and sister's ID numbers are different is that MAYBE the ID number for the women changed on marriage. For what its worth Mike