Johann, I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the various waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? Kind regards Delia Robertson On 2011/11/17 10:45 AM, Johann Hanekom wrote: > I have to agree with Keith about this - you only need to look at the VOC > shipping lists to see how many of our ancestors were German. Apart from > Colenbrander there are other sources documenting (and also complaining) > about the vast numbers of non-Dutch employees of the VOC.

Thanks Sonia for you reply. Most interesting. I got quite a bit to look at. Have a lovely day. Glynis -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sonia van Heerden Sent: 19 November 2011 05:31 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic percentages Hi Glynis Each family is different. You would have to take into consideration the husband and wife's ancestry in each generation. So, only your immediate family would have the same percentages,brothers, sisters, and children. Sonia ------------------------------------------------- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 06:41:43 +0200 From: " glynis" <glynis@kwikmark.co.za> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANRmCJZ/lNdCiGH7IU7sDIPCgAAAEAAAAEfAHR7vJjNHowrLdyqy guEBAAAAAA==@kwikmark.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Morning Sonia, Thanks for this info. How do the NELL's/NEL's compare % wise? That would be interesting to know. Regards, Glynis ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Lists Headstones for F, G, H, I and J. are now available at http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=433858 Regards Carol BENEKE nee STEWART Part Elizabeth, South Africa. ________________________ Researching: STEWART, STONE, LUKE, BENEKE, BENECKE, VON BENECKE and related families.

Hi Glynis Each family is different. You would have to take into consideration the husband and wife's ancestry in each generation. So, only your immediate family would have the same percentages,brothers, sisters, and children. Sonia ------------------------------------------------- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 06:41:43 +0200 From: " glynis" <glynis@kwikmark.co.za> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANRmCJZ/lNdCiGH7IU7sDIPCgAAAEAAAAEfAHR7vJjNHowrLdyqyguEBAAAAAA==@kwikmark.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Morning Sonia, Thanks for this info. How do the NELL's/NEL's compare % wise? That would be interesting to know. Regards, Glynis

Hi List Here is Peter's current e-mail peterventer@cnery.co.za Regards Carol -----Original Message----- From: John Wynne Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:33 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Peter Elrud Venter Does anyone have an up-to-date e-mail address for Peter Elrud Venter? The one I have (peterventer@mjvn.co.za) doesn't seem to work anymore. Peter did a look-up for me in the Free State Archives Repository (VAB) a couple of years ago, and I have another record I'd like to check. Thanks. John Wynne Cheshire, UK ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4024 - Release Date: 11/18/11 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1411 / Virus Database: 2092/4024 - Release Date: 11/18/11

Morning Sonia, Thanks for this info. How do the NELL's/NEL's compare % wise? That would be interesting to know. Regards, Glynis -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sonia van Heerden Sent: 18 November 2011 04:48 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's family. His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French Huguenot and 12% English. His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. Regards Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden Toronto, Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John, I can recommend a different researcher at VAB. Contact me off-list. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 03:36:51 PM EST From: John Wynne <jw_email2004-clwyd@yahoo.co.uk> To: "south-africa@rootsweb.com" <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Peter Elrud Venter Does anyone have an up-to-date e-mail address for Peter Elrud Venter? The one I have (peterventer@mjvn.co.za) doesn't seem to work anymore. Peter did a look-up for me in the Free State Archives Repository (VAB) a couple of years ago, and I have another record I'd like to check. Thanks. John Wynne Cheshire, UK ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does anyone have an up-to-date e-mail address for Peter Elrud Venter? The one I have (peterventer@mjvn.co.za) doesn't seem to work anymore. Peter did a look-up for me in the Free State Archives Repository (VAB) a couple of years ago, and I have another record I'd like to check. Thanks. John Wynne Cheshire, UK

I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's family. His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French Huguenot and 12% English. His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. Regards Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden Toronto, Canada

Hi Alison, . The best I could get for you is a telephone number: +27(0)53 832 7322. Possibly they could supply you with an email address. . Johan. . On 17/11/2011, Scott and Alison <sadrysdale@bigpond.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > Would very much appreciate some help - would like contact details for the > catholic cathedral St Mary's in Kimberley - preferably an email address - > don't get much joy on the google search perhaps someone on the list is in > Kimberley and could help. > > Thank you so much > > Alison >

Hi, Would very much appreciate some help - would like contact details for the catholic cathedral St Mary's in Kimberley - preferably an email address - don't get much joy on the google search perhaps someone on the list is in Kimberley and could help. Thank you so much Alison

On 16 Nov 2011, at 7:06 AM, Sonia van Heerden wrote (snip): > Gerda > > Thank you also for the information on the Pennsylvania Dutch. Do > you mean Grand Rapids, Michigan? I have some friends here in > Toronto, Canada whose ancestors were Pennsylvania Dutch (actually > Deutch ?- German). Their ancestors arrived in the USA about the > same time as the Dutch and Germans arrived in South Africa. In Michigan there must have been Dutch settlers at some time, as I seem to recall a place called Holland somewhere between Grand Rapids and Detroit from my travels round that State when my daughter lived in Ypsilanti and worked in Ann Arbor some years back. Dutch settlement in New York was of course roughly contemporaneous with that in Cape Town (mid-17th Century), but Michigan was still French territory in those days. In South Africa the main influx of Germans was following the Crimean War, though there were quite a few in the service of the VOC well before that: one of mine (HAARHOFF) joined the VOC at Texel in about 1715. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

On 16 Nov 2011, at 12:41 AM, bruce wrote: > Sonia, > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > daughter of Gerrits. I believe it is a name, just as Gerritseun would be a name, of the class of names known as "patronymics". They occur in the Scandinavian countries and in Wales, and of course all the Mac names in Scotland and Ireland and many of the O' names in Ireland are also patronymics. (But some O' names are indications of place of origin.) The word means "father's name" or "named for the father", and in societies that had not yet invented formal surnames they were one main way of distinguishing between different persons of the same given name in any one community; the other was occupational names such as Baker (and its variant Baxter), Thatcher, Fletcher, Mason, etc., and the rather nice Welsh version -- "Dai the Bread" is of course a baker, but as far as I know this has never found its way into formal naming. (And of course there were not so many given names current then, either, a majority being Biblical names in the Judaeo-Christian world.) Think of Andersson and Andersdottir in Swedish, Evans, Williams and Owens in Welsh and the names starting with Ben in Hebrew and Bin in Arabic. Many of these have also found their way into English/Scots, for example Anderson (where the second S has been lost) and its variant Henderson. In Arabic, occupational names seem to start with El or Al (the). The thing about occupational names is that persons bearing the same name are not necessarily related, except where the son took over the business in question. I have never heard of matronymics, though they may well exist in matriarchal societies. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

  I put "catholic cathedral St Mary's in Kimberley " into Google, and got top of the list St. Mary’s Cathedral (RC) 72 Du Toitspan Rd, Kimberley, Northern Cape (Noord-Kaap) No e-mail address though. ----- Original Message ----- > From: Scott and Alison <sadrysdale@bigpond.com> > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com; south-africa-eastern-cape@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2011, 10:02 > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] catholic church in Kimberley > > > Hi, > > Would very much appreciate some help - would like contact details for the > catholic cathedral St Mary's in Kimberley - preferably an email address - > don't get much joy on the google search perhaps someone on the list is in > Kimberley and could help. > > Thank you so much > > Alison > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have to agree with Keith about this - you only need to look at the VOC shipping lists to see how many of our ancestors were German. Apart from Colenbrander there are other sources documenting (and also complaining) about the vast numbers of non-Dutch employees of the VOC. I believe most of them came as a consequence of the devastation caused by the 30 Years War. Not only did first Danish, then Swedish, then French, then Russian mercenaries each cause their own variety of havoc in northern 'Germany', but there were also three outbreaks of the Black Death in 1624, 1626 and 1627 that helped to decimate the population. History shows that the population of the Germanic states shrank by about 30% during the war, is some areas by nearly two thirds. During the Swedish Occupation (1630 - 1635), for instance, 2000 castles, 18 000 settlements and 1500 villages were destroyed. A census in the Duchy of Württemberg in 1652 revealed a loss of more than 40 000 homes and 58 000 residents. Some resources claim that the economic consequences were so great that 'Germany' only started recovering towards the middle of the 19th century. And of course the feudal system of land ownership did not help much, when the eldest son inherited the father's holdings, and the younger ones had to go and make a living for themselves elsewhere. My own progenitor Jürgen HANNEKUM, whose family name the Dutch wrote as HANNEKOHM and then HANEKOM, was one of those younger sons. Johann -----Original Message----- From: Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 0:29 Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers Andrew wrote: > In South Africa the main influx of Germans was following the Crimean War I would disagree. From 1652 up until about 1800, half of all European migrants to South Africa were German. Only about a quarter were from the etherlands. Colenbrander, "De Afkomst der Boeren".) Keith

I feel that what I wrote earlier was not expressed very well! I wrote: Gg>> Correct would have been Anna Elisabeth Casparsdochter Gerrits RB> Yes - that form appears occasionally in the Cape registers but not RB> very often - assuming that the compilers of genealogies have RB> allocated that bride the correct parents (!). The form Anna Elisabeth Casparsdochter Gerrits appears nowhere in the Cape registers, but that form of naming does occasionally appear though very seldom. Thanks, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk

Hello Gerda, Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 7:39:06 PM, you wrote: Gg> In that case the daughter would be Anna Elisabeth Gerrits (surname Gg> of patronymic origin) and not Gerritsdochter (true patronymic) Gg> Has anybody seen Gerritsdochter on a document, or is this just a Gg> little embellishment along the line? For this particular person it appears in her marriage entry (though not with that spelling) and it is not uncommon in 17th century documents from Delft, for instance: Stellenbosch NGK marriage register: 1718 1 Maij - Wyer Hendrikz van Epen jongman met Anna Elisabeth Gerritsdogter Gg> Correct would have been Anna Elisabeth Casparsdochter Gerrits Yes - that form appears occasionally in the Cape registers but not very often - assuming that the compilers of genealogies have allocated that bride the correct parents (!). Thanks, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk

On 17 Nov 2011 at 10:14, Andrew Rodger wrote: > On 16 Nov 2011, at 12:41 AM, bruce wrote: > > > Sonia, > > > > I don't know if you know but "GERRITSDOCHTER" is not a name,it means > > daughter of Gerrits. > > I believe it is a name, just as Gerritseun would be a name, of the > class of names known as "patronymics". They occur in the > Scandinavian countries and in Wales, and of course all the Mac names > in Scotland and Ireland and many of the O' names in Ireland are also > patronymics. (But some O' names are indications of place of A South African example of a seurname that is both patronymic and locational is Janse van Rensburg and Janse van Vuuren originally both were Jans zoon > I have never heard of matronymics, though they may well exist in > matriarchal societies. An example in Southern Africa is Karl Johan Andersdotter, whose name was Anglicised to Charles John Andersson. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_John_Andersson -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

I have seen a similar naming system with Norwegian settlers in 1880's arriving on the Lapland. Madsdotter : Mad's daughter Another puzzle was Gidskeodegard : Giske came from Giskeodegaard John D -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gerda gmail Sent: 16 November 2011 09:39 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany In that case the daughter would be Anna Elisabeth Gerrits (surname of patronymic origin) and not Gerritsdochter (true patronymic) Has anybody seen Gerritsdochter on a document, or is this just a little embellishment along the line? Correct would have been Anna Elisabeth Casparsdochter Gerrits Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany >> Casrar Gerrits > > Should be Caspar > > Keith > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4620 - Release Date: 11/16/11

In that case the daughter would be Anna Elisabeth Gerrits (surname of patronymic origin) and not Gerritsdochter (true patronymic) Has anybody seen Gerritsdochter on a document, or is this just a little embellishment along the line? Correct would have been Anna Elisabeth Casparsdochter Gerrits Gerda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Weyers -- Holland and Germany >> Casrar Gerrits > > Should be Caspar > > Keith >