Hi Viv I have applied a couple of times for my father's birth record (1907) but it has never been found. My aunt was born in 1905 and I got her cert with no problems, my grandfather seems to have been very conscientious and was the person who helped everyone else in the family with official paperwork, so in my opinion the chances of my dad not being registered are remote. I think the document has been misfiled. Perhaps you could hunt down a church record. Good luck! Eileen Richards Bay ----- Original Message ----- From: Vivienne Smith To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 1:40 PM Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Marriage Records Hi All I recently applied for a marriage certificate for my Great Grandparents who were married in 1906 in Johannesburg. I have received a letter back from Home Affair, Pretoria, to say they are unable to issue a certificate as there is no record of the marriage. Could this mean that the records were lost or simply that they can't find it, or that they weren't legally married? Kind regards Viv ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Viv How did you apply for it,I was told that one has to have the exact date etc.did you have these ? One of my GGgrandfather is said to have married my GGgrandmother ,yet there is no record of it .....do frustrating!!! However,I only have their names,dates of birth and a time span...nothing else,is it possible to trace a marriage with so little info????? Regards Cate On 22 November 2011 11:40, Vivienne Smith <vivsmith@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi All > > I recently applied for a marriage certificate for my Great Grandparents > who were married in 1906 in Johannesburg. I have received a letter back > from Home Affair, Pretoria, to say they are unable to issue a > certificate as there is no record of the marriage. > > Could this mean that the records were lost or simply that they can't > find it, or that they weren't legally married? > > Kind regards > Viv > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi All I recently applied for a marriage certificate for my Great Grandparents who were married in 1906 in Johannesburg. I have received a letter back from Home Affair, Pretoria, to say they are unable to issue a certificate as there is no record of the marriage. Could this mean that the records were lost or simply that they can't find it, or that they weren't legally married? Kind regards Viv

Recently settled by other countries by mainly Caucasian people.. The Aboriginals have been living in Australia for tens of thousands of years and the Africans in Africa since time in memorial. The American Indian also native to North America. It is only since white invasion that these ancient lands became 'new'!!!!!!!!!!!! A sensitive point to all ethnic groups who were not even considered citizens of their own land in all the countries you mention until reently. Lynette from OZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "vince otto" <jusotto@sympatico.ca> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 10:06 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages > > Hi All, > > > I thought maybe I should add my two cents . . . afterall I started this > thing long ago.:-) I believe people living in "new" countries such as; > South Africa, Canada, Australia or the USA are often asked what their > ethnicity is. Germans, Japanese or any of the old world countries have > been around for more than a 1000 years so they have had time to develop an > ethnic identity. Some years ago I suggested that if you were interested in > your ethnic make-up as was famously discussed by Heese about the Afrikaner > Volk, then trace your descendants back 10 generations. At the 10th > generation point everyone of us has 1024 ancestors. Most of us will > experience genetic loss where the same people will appear more than once > in your list due to the small gene pool that existed at the Cape and lack > mobility, double count them anyway. Each one of the those ancestors > roughly represent .1% of your genetic make-up. The fact that Germans and > French did live in Holland at the time our ancestors left! > Europe or that German families might have anglicized their name does pose > calculating problems, but afterall this I did just for fun. Here are my > ethnic percentages: > 28% Dutch, 22% German, 12% French, 18% English, 6% Scottish, 6% Italian, > 5% African and 3% of European and Asian extract. > > Environment moulds who we are, but ethnicity speaks to our origins and in > my case I'm clearly a child of many peoples. > > Regards, > Vince > >> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:52:07 +0000 >> From: BAZDER <bazder@ntlworld.com> >> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages >> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: >> <CADD9AO33_zAk277Sbd_UUoTCEKQTOwidBzHEfM5BcJhEBQAEAw@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hi Sonia >> Where did you get this done? >> Regards >> Cate >> >> On 18 November 2011 14:47, Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > >> > I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's >> > family. >> > >> > His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French >> > Huguenot and 12% English. >> > >> > His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. >> > >> > This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. >> > >> > Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic >> > background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. >> > >> > Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. >> > >> > Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden >> > Toronto, Canada >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:38:08 +1100 >> From: Andrew Rodger <rodgera@audioio.com> >> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnicity of early settlers was Weyers >> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <F3E83E71-55FC-401F-9FB9-563AD52E7575@audioio.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: >> >> > Johann, >> > >> > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as >> > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the >> > various >> > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? >> > >> > Kind regards >> > Delia Robertson > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Sonia, Monday, November 21, 2011, 5:34:10 PM, you wrote: SvH> Vince Otto advises going to the 10th generation to be as accurate SvH> as possible. I have taken my sons' ancestry to the 10th SvH> generation and give each surname 1 point. Vince Otto wrote: At the 10th generation point everyone of us has 1024 ancestors. Sonia, to have traced your son's ancestry completely back to the 10th generation is an amazing achievement. I congratulate you. My own Afrikaner ancestors stretch back usually 7 or 8 generations or less to the founding father and in many cases his or her parents are unknown, and sometimes the country of origin also unknown . Only one or two have I managed to trace a bit further in the country of origin. Two of my English ancestor families I can take back to the 12th generation (Ball and Billing), but most only 4 or 5 generations. Thank you for an interesting discussion. Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk richard.ball@ballfamilyrecords.co.uk

On 22 Nov 2011 at 10:30, Kevin and Lynette wrote: > Recently settled by other countries by mainly Caucasian people.. The > Aboriginals have been living in Australia for tens of thousands of years and > the Africans in Africa since time in memorial. The American Indian also > native to North America. It is only since white invasion that these ancient > lands became 'new'!!!!!!!!!!!! A sensitive point to all ethnic groups who were > not even considered citizens of their own land in all the countries you > mention until reently. Lynette from OZ The "Caucasian people" seems to be an odd kind of myth that has spead around, apparently from some French traveller in the 18th or 19th century who claimed that Caucasian people were the most beautiful that he had encountered in his travels, and since then nearly everyone in Europe (and their offshoots in places like the USA) has been trying to claim Caucasian ancestry. Joe Stalin was a Caucasian, so I suppose if you consider him beautiful, you could claim Caucasian ancestry. But I believe that there are more than 40 different languages in Caucasia, most of them mutually unintelligible, and some of them belonging to completely different language families, so ethnically the Caucasians are themselves a pretty mixed bunch. And since Caucasia straddles the boundary between Europe and Asia, some of them are Asian and some European. It really does seem an odd designation to claim. In my researches all my ancestors have been from the UK, back (in some branches) to the 16th century, and not a single Caucasian among them. Perhaps DNA tests might reveal Caucasian ancestry. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

Hi All, I thought maybe I should add my two cents . . . afterall I started this thing long ago.:-) I believe people living in "new" countries such as; South Africa, Canada, Australia or the USA are often asked what their ethnicity is. Germans, Japanese or any of the old world countries have been around for more than a 1000 years so they have had time to develop an ethnic identity. Some years ago I suggested that if you were interested in your ethnic make-up as was famously discussed by Heese about the Afrikaner Volk, then trace your descendants back 10 generations. At the 10th generation point everyone of us has 1024 ancestors. Most of us will experience genetic loss where the same people will appear more than once in your list due to the small gene pool that existed at the Cape and lack mobility, double count them anyway. Each one of the those ancestors roughly represent .1% of your genetic make-up. The fact that Germans and French did live in Holland at the time our ancestors left Europe or that German families might have anglicized their name does pose calculating problems, but afterall this I did just for fun. Here are my ethnic percentages: 28% Dutch, 22% German, 12% French, 18% English, 6% Scottish, 6% Italian, 5% African and 3% of European and Asian extract. Environment moulds who we are, but ethnicity speaks to our origins and in my case I'm clearly a child of many peoples. Regards, Vince > Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:52:07 +0000 > From: BAZDER <bazder@ntlworld.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CADD9AO33_zAk277Sbd_UUoTCEKQTOwidBzHEfM5BcJhEBQAEAw@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Sonia > Where did you get this done? > Regards > Cate > > On 18 November 2011 14:47, Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's > > family. > > > > His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French > > Huguenot and 12% English. > > > > His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. > > > > This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. > > > > Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic > > background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. > > > > Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. > > > > Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. > > > > Regards > > > > Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden > > Toronto, Canada > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:38:08 +1100 > From: Andrew Rodger <rodgera@audioio.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnicity of early settlers was Weyers > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <F3E83E71-55FC-401F-9FB9-563AD52E7575@audioio.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > > > Johann, > > > > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as > > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the > > various > > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > > > > Kind regards > > Delia Robertson

Hi, I started my family research properly on the 27th December 2002..... At that time I thought my genetic makeup would be largely English with some Scottish blood with a little Welsh, Irish and Dutch..... As my research has developed the amount of Scots blood has increased, the Welsh remains about the same as I can't establish where the family came from as they had spent at least 4 generaltions in England before my ancestors emigrated to the Cape with the 1820 Settlers....the Irish turned out to be largely Scots who had been moved across to Ireland....my Dutch blood turned out to have been diluted with French, Swedish, & German....who can say whether there is any Asian or African blood within those boundries....I simply don't know; to date I haven't found anything to indicate that this may be the case. As some of my Dutch and French Ancestors appeared at the Cape in the early years following colonisation there is a pretty good chance of their being the inclusion of other bloodlines. It fascinated me when I read that in about 1750 there were only about 7,500 immigrants into the Cape (this included the slaves) which did give us a very small gene pool; compare that with the 4,000,000 (approx). in the U.K.... One of these days I will get around to having my DNA tested....My brother has offered to allow me to have his DNA tested as well to establish the male markers. All quite, qute fascinating. Best wishes, Tombi Peck + -----Original Message----- From: vince otto <jusotto@sympatico.ca> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 0:06 Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages i All, I thought maybe I should add my two cents . . . afterall I started this thing ong ago.:-) I believe people living in "new" countries such as; South Africa, anada, Australia or the USA are often asked what their ethnicity is. Germans, apanese or any of the old world countries have been around for more than a 1000 ears so they have had time to develop an ethnic identity. Some years ago I uggested that if you were interested in your ethnic make-up as was famously iscussed by Heese about the Afrikaner Volk, then trace your descendants back 10 enerations. At the 10th generation point everyone of us has 1024 ancestors. ost of us will experience genetic loss where the same people will appear more han once in your list due to the small gene pool that existed at the Cape and ack mobility, double count them anyway. Each one of the those ancestors roughly epresent .1% of your genetic make-up. The fact that Germans and French did live n Holland at the time our ancestors left! Europe or that German families might have anglicized their name does pose alculating problems, but afterall this I did just for fun. Here are my ethnic ercentages: 8% Dutch, 22% German, 12% French, 18% English, 6% Scottish, 6% Italian, 5% frican and 3% of European and Asian extract. nvironment moulds who we are, but ethnicity speaks to our origins and in my ase I'm clearly a child of many peoples. egards, ince Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:52:07 +0000 From: BAZDER <bazder@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CADD9AO33_zAk277Sbd_UUoTCEKQTOwidBzHEfM5BcJhEBQAEAw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Sonia Where did you get this done? Regards Cate On 18 November 2011 14:47, Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> wrote: > > I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's > family. > > His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French > Huguenot and 12% English. > > His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. > > This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. > > Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic > background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. > > Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. > > Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. > > Regards > > Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden > Toronto, Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:38:08 +1100 From: Andrew Rodger <rodgera@audioio.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnicity of early settlers was Weyers To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <F3E83E71-55FC-401F-9FB9-563AD52E7575@audioio.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > Johann, > > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the > various > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > > Kind regards > Delia Robertson ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Surely look up requests, like these, which involve only two people, should be done off list? Regards Wally Greig At 12:41 PM 11/20/01 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Anne, > >Thank you for such a kind offer. I was wondering if you would mind >looking up my great grandfather, James THOMAS. I am not entirely sure >where he lived but my grandfather, also James Thomas, was born in >Sunderland, Durham. I feel like my grandfather would have been living >around that area - in North East England as he was a coal miner. I have >a date of birth for him as 29 Jan 1862. He married Margaret JENKINS b. >14 May 1869. They had 6 children but only two survived childhood - >Margaret Ethel, and James. He has been very hard to find so far!! > >Thank you again! >Sue > > >On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:13:32 +0200 "Anne Clarkson" ><annefc@netactive.co.za> writes: >> I have recently bought the complete UK 1881 census on CD rom. If >> anyone >> needs a look-up (within reasonable limits, obviously - not hundreds >> of names >> please!) I shall be happy to help. >> >> Anne >> Somerset West >> >> >> ==== SOUTH-AFRICA Mailing List ==== >> ************************************************************ >> Please don't forget to send messages to the correct address: >> SOUTH-AFRICA-L@rootsweb.com >> This applies to all messages to the list regardless of in which >> mode you are subscribed. >> >> >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > >==== SOUTH-AFRICA Mailing List ==== >************************************************************ >Please don't forget to send messages to the correct address: >SOUTH-AFRICA-L@rootsweb.com >This applies to all messages to the list regardless of in which >mode you are subscribed. > >

It's a simple calculation, though I have no idea why anyone would want to do it "accurately". You are Gen 1. Your parents are Gen 2. Your grandparents are Gen 3. In each nth generation for which you have no further ancestors, each person counts as 1/2^n. The total of all contributions is 1. For example, assume you know your mother was born in Natal, but you do not know her parents. Your father was born in the Transvaal, and his parents were born in the Free State. You do not know his mother's parents, but his father's parents were from the Cape. So, you are 1/2 Natal, 1/4 Free State and 1/8 + 1/8 = 1/4 Cape. A typical Mpumulangan! By the way, "of the Cape" or "v.d. Kaap" means born at the Cape. It does not have a particular ethnic meaning. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:38:41 PM EST From: Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic percentages I was hoping that Vince Otto was lurking here and show you how to do this. He advises going to the 10th generation to be as accurate as possible. I have taken my sons' ancestry to the 10th generation and give each surname 1 point. Therefore for the surname van Heerden, I give it 1.00 point in the Netherlands, whereas van der Merwe I give it 0.50 in the Netherlands and 0.50 German, as in that generation, the first generation in SA, the father was from Holland and the mother, Elsie Cloete, was from Germany. There are a number of van de Cape ancestors in any Afrikaans family, I have found through the years, as well as East Indian. Jack's family has about 1.5% Indian and 1.1% van de Cape. Sonia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 21 Nov 2011, at 3:42 PM, Michele Cocker wrote: > You guys may want to add some ASIAN and AFRICAN to the mix. > > Have a look at The Cape Melting Pot by HF Heese I quite agree -- these would be particularly applicable to my Afrikaans grandmother (but not the other three grandparents, who came of some rural and some newly-academic Scottish stock, without any marine connections I have ever heard of, which means less scope for such mixtures), and to three of my wife's grandparents, one called Smith but possibly descended from a St Helena family, and two Afrikaans (Beelders and van Graan) with a "v.d.Kaap" showing up here and there in their lines. That's why I covered both settlers and slaves in my previous comment. Anyone with Heese and Lombard can look these names up; I got them from a friend's copy. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > Johann, > > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the > various > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > > Kind regards > Delia Robertson I'm curious, too, but what I wonder is why anyone thinks it important (hereditary diseases apart). "Ethnicity" is a somewhat woolly term, and does not exactly coincide with descent, as it also involves some environmental and societal aspects -- at least, in the popular understanding. Moreover, percentages are inevitably inexact, given that each fraction we are considering is a number divided by a power of 2, whereas percentages are divided by a power of ten. Starting with yourself and your spouse, and supposing that both of you have both parents of "pure" ethnicities, whatever that means, you immediately use up all the whole numbers in percentage terms (100%, 50%, 25%), even before you go back one generation more. That's the mathematical side of the problem; the geographical side is even worse, as anyone with any association with South Africa well knows! The country's political history means that very few families accepted as "European" have an entirely true history, with many ancestral ethnicities firmly suppressed and kept even from the family so as not to suffer the consequences of a "leak" by an unwary child. Thus, taking my family as an example, I have three grandparents born in Scotland and one in South Africa. The three Scots came respectively from Ayrshire, Aberdeen and Fife stock. All three would undoubtedly have a rich mixture of Celtic and Norse ancestors, as the Vikings were active on both the North Sea side of Scotland and around the Irish Sea. (Dublin is actually a Viking-founded City, though it has a Celtic name meaning "Black Pool", after a tidal phenomenon in the River Liffey at the point where the Vikings landed.) The remaining grandparent, born in South Africa, had a name that was clearly of German origin (Haarhoff), and the stamvader appears to have come from somewhere in Northern Germany, joining the VOC at Texel, as a knecht, early in the 18th Century, and there is a Marais somewhere in all that lot, too (French Huguenot). And Germany itself was a linguistic rather than a political term in those days, with its borders gradually developing as a result of successive post-war settlements over several centuries, and with "Germany" as a single political entity only coming into being after the Franco-Prussian War, and it gets worse as you progress eastward in Europe. Then there's my wife, surname Beelders. Good Dutch-sounding name, that -- except that the ethnic identity, while it undoubtedly included some Dutch, was well diluted over a long period in the Swartland. And, when you consider the fact that we inherit our fathers' surnames, and that there is almost always, in a new settlement, a greater or lesser preponderance of males (equally in South Africa, with mainly free settlers, and Australia, with the early influx of convicts -- males having been a majority of prisoners then as now), it is to expected that there would be a steady dilution as these men took up with women from among the locals. The main variation on this is in ex-slave populations, since female slaves were taken for domestic service as well as males for field work and other heavy labour -- I've not studied slavery in detail and my acquaintance with it comes mainly from fiction -- and this would of course affect the "Malays" in the Cape and the blacks in the United States. (And in the United States, to the extent that free men took slave women, the child would normally bear the mother's surname, which in turn might well be that of her owner.) My wife's mother was named Fulton, a very common name in Scotland, which was indeed where her father came from (Edinburgh -- but his father's family hailed from Berwickshire and the Tweed Valley, while his mother was a Cornish woman, both traced back, to the 18th and 17th Centuries respectively), so you see it is already getting complicated. And this is without allowing for adoptions resulting in a change of name, irregular unions and so forth, yet we've already lost count of ethnicities. I'd hate even to contemplate calculating the proportions for my only grandchild. I guess the moral of the story is (again excluding medical considerations) that what really shapes us is the social and economic environment we come from, at least as much as, if not more than, the "racial", national, "ethnic" or what have you make-up of our ancestors. That is where the real stories lie. And I guess that from that you can guess that I was a member of the old Liberal Party of 50+ years ago! (But I've lived in Australia for over 50 years now.) Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

I was hoping that Vince Otto was lurking here and show you how to do this. He advises going to the 10th generation to be as accurate as possible. I have taken my sons' ancestry to the 10th generation and give each surname 1 point. Therefore for the surname van Heerden, I give it 1.00 point in the Netherlands, whereas van der Merwe I give it 0.50 in the Netherlands and 0.50 German, as in that generation, the first generation in SA, the father was from Holland and the mother, Elsie Cloete, was from Germany. There are a number of van de Cape ancestors in any Afrikaans family, I have found through the years, as well as East Indian. Jack's family has about 1.5% Indian and 1.1% van de Cape. Sonia

"Cape Melting Pot" is the English translation of "Groep Sonder Grense". Colenbrander (De Afkomst Der Boeren") did an analysis of European settlers to about 1800. Numbers and percentages. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:47:15 AM EST From: "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnicity of early settlers was Weyers On 21 Nov 2011 at 14:38, Andrew Rodger wrote: > On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > > > Johann, > > > > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as > > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the > > various > > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > > > > Kind regards > > Delia Robertson > > I'm curious, too, but what I wonder is why anyone thinks it important > (hereditary diseases apart). > > "Ethnicity" is a somewhat woolly term, and does not exactly coincide > with descent, as it also involves some environmental and societal > aspects -- at least, in the popular understanding. Moreover, > percentages are inevitably inexact, given that each fraction we are > considering is a number divided by a power of 2, whereas percentages > are divided by a power of ten. Starting with yourself and your > spouse, and supposing that both of you have both parents of "pure" > ethnicities, whatever that means, you immediately use up all the > whole numbers in percentage terms (100%, 50%, 25%), even before you > go back one generation more. > > That's the mathematical side of the problem; the geographical side is > even worse, as anyone with any association with South Africa well > knows! The country's political history means that very few families > accepted as "European" have an entirely true history, with many > ancestral ethnicities firmly suppressed and kept even from the family > so as not to suffer the consequences of a "leak" by an unwary child. > Thus, taking my family as an example, I have three grandparents born > in Scotland and one in South Africa. The three Scots came > respectively from Ayrshire, Aberdeen and Fife stock. All three would > undoubtedly have a rich mixture of Celtic and Norse ancestors, as the > Vikings were active on both the North Sea side of Scotland and around > the Irish Sea. (Dublin is actually a Viking-founded City, though it > has a Celtic name meaning "Black Pool", after a tidal phenomenon in > the River Liffey at the point where the Vikings landed.) The > remaining grandparent, born in South Africa, had a name that was > clearly of German origin (Haarhoff), and the stamvader appears to > have come from somewhere in Northern Germany, joining the VOC at > Texel, as a knecht, early in the 18th Century, and there is a Marais > somewhere in all that lot, too (French Huguenot). And Germany itself > was a linguistic rather than a political term in those days, with its > borders gradually developing as a result of successive post-war > settlements over several centuries, and with "Germany" as a single > political entity only coming into being after the Franco-Prussian > War, and it gets worse as you progress eastward in Europe. I find it interesting nevertheless. I have been rather disappointed to discover that all my ancestors originated in what is now the UK, whereas my wife's ancestors are much more varied -- her maternal ancestors are from the UK (Cumbria), but her paternal ancestors from Canada, Scotland, England, Germany (including some Huguenots) etc. An interesting book to read in this connection is: Author Heese, H. F. Title Groep sonder grense : (die rol en status van die gemengde bevolking aan die Kaap, 1652-1795) Imprint Bellville : Wes-Kaaplandse Instituut vir Historiese Navorsing, Universiteit van Wes-Kaapland, 1984. another, by the father of the above, and a well-known genealogist, is: Author Heese, J. A. Title Die herkoms van die Afrikaner, 1657-1867/ [deur] J. A. Heese. Imprint Kaapstad : A. A. Balkema, 1971 [c1972] > I guess the moral of the story is (again excluding medical > considerations) that what really shapes us is the social and economic > environment we come from, at least as much as, if not more than, the > "racial", national, "ethnic" or what have you make-up of our > ancestors. That is where the real stories lie. And I guess that > from that you can guess that I was a member of the old Liberal Party > of 50+ years ago! (But I've lived in Australia for over 50 years now.) In which case I shall invite you to join the Liberal Party mailing list. We're hoping to collected all the stories before the members croak. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 21 Nov 2011 at 14:38, Andrew Rodger wrote: > On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > > > Johann, > > > > I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as > > opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the > > various > > waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > > > > Kind regards > > Delia Robertson > > I'm curious, too, but what I wonder is why anyone thinks it important > (hereditary diseases apart). > > "Ethnicity" is a somewhat woolly term, and does not exactly coincide > with descent, as it also involves some environmental and societal > aspects -- at least, in the popular understanding. Moreover, > percentages are inevitably inexact, given that each fraction we are > considering is a number divided by a power of 2, whereas percentages > are divided by a power of ten. Starting with yourself and your > spouse, and supposing that both of you have both parents of "pure" > ethnicities, whatever that means, you immediately use up all the > whole numbers in percentage terms (100%, 50%, 25%), even before you > go back one generation more. > > That's the mathematical side of the problem; the geographical side is > even worse, as anyone with any association with South Africa well > knows! The country's political history means that very few families > accepted as "European" have an entirely true history, with many > ancestral ethnicities firmly suppressed and kept even from the family > so as not to suffer the consequences of a "leak" by an unwary child. > Thus, taking my family as an example, I have three grandparents born > in Scotland and one in South Africa. The three Scots came > respectively from Ayrshire, Aberdeen and Fife stock. All three would > undoubtedly have a rich mixture of Celtic and Norse ancestors, as the > Vikings were active on both the North Sea side of Scotland and around > the Irish Sea. (Dublin is actually a Viking-founded City, though it > has a Celtic name meaning "Black Pool", after a tidal phenomenon in > the River Liffey at the point where the Vikings landed.) The > remaining grandparent, born in South Africa, had a name that was > clearly of German origin (Haarhoff), and the stamvader appears to > have come from somewhere in Northern Germany, joining the VOC at > Texel, as a knecht, early in the 18th Century, and there is a Marais > somewhere in all that lot, too (French Huguenot). And Germany itself > was a linguistic rather than a political term in those days, with its > borders gradually developing as a result of successive post-war > settlements over several centuries, and with "Germany" as a single > political entity only coming into being after the Franco-Prussian > War, and it gets worse as you progress eastward in Europe. I find it interesting nevertheless. I have been rather disappointed to discover that all my ancestors originated in what is now the UK, whereas my wife's ancestors are much more varied -- her maternal ancestors are from the UK (Cumbria), but her paternal ancestors from Canada, Scotland, England, Germany (including some Huguenots) etc. An interesting book to read in this connection is: Author Heese, H. F. Title Groep sonder grense : (die rol en status van die gemengde bevolking aan die Kaap, 1652-1795) Imprint Bellville : Wes-Kaaplandse Instituut vir Historiese Navorsing, Universiteit van Wes-Kaapland, 1984. another, by the father of the above, and a well-known genealogist, is: Author Heese, J. A. Title Die herkoms van die Afrikaner, 1657-1867/ [deur] J. A. Heese. Imprint Kaapstad : A. A. Balkema, 1971 [c1972] > I guess the moral of the story is (again excluding medical > considerations) that what really shapes us is the social and economic > environment we come from, at least as much as, if not more than, the > "racial", national, "ethnic" or what have you make-up of our > ancestors. That is where the real stories lie. And I guess that > from that you can guess that I was a member of the old Liberal Party > of 50+ years ago! (But I've lived in Australia for over 50 years now.) In which case I shall invite you to join the Liberal Party mailing list. We're hoping to collected all the stories before the members croak. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

In my family tree - Bredenkamp (AFRICAN) and Viljoen (ASIAN) come to mind. -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger Sent: 21 November 2011 07:16 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages On 21 Nov 2011, at 3:42 PM, Michele Cocker wrote: > You guys may want to add some ASIAN and AFRICAN to the mix. > > Have a look at The Cape Melting Pot by HF Heese I quite agree -- these would be particularly applicable to my Afrikaans grandmother (but not the other three grandparents, who came of some rural and some newly-academic Scottish stock, without any marine connections I have ever heard of, which means less scope for such mixtures), and to three of my wife's grandparents, one called Smith but possibly descended from a St Helena family, and two Afrikaans (Beelders and van Graan) with a "v.d.Kaap" showing up here and there in their lines. That's why I covered both settlers and slaves in my previous comment. Anyone with Heese and Lombard can look these names up; I got them from a friend's copy. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You guys may want to add some ASIAN and AFRICAN to the mix. Have a look at The Cape Melting Pot by HF Heese -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of BAZDER Sent: 20 November 2011 12:52 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages Hi Sonia Where did you get this done? Regards Cate On 18 November 2011 14:47, Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> wrote: > > I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's > family. > > His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French > Huguenot and 12% English. > > His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. > > This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. > > Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the > ethnic background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. > > Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. > > Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. > > Regards > > Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden > Toronto, Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Not sure anyone said anything about it being important. Delia Robertson On 2011/11/21 05:38 AM, Andrew Rodger wrote: > On 20 Nov 2011, at 5:27 PM, DRobertson wrote: > >> I'm curious, do you know if anyone has done a numerical analysis - as >> opposed to a percentage analysis - of the ethnic origins of the >> various >> waves of settler arrivals prior to 1900? > I'm curious, too, but what I wonder is why anyone thinks it important > (hereditary diseases apart). > >

Hi, It would be rather intresting to know at what point one would qualify for affrimative action!  For example in America one can be 1/16 Cherokee for example and qualify for various affriming remedies (as I understand).  I wonder what percentage would qualify in SA and what the measure would be. Tongue firmly in my cheek, Karel Marais Marais x Thurnau, Lloyd x Pienaar, Bennett x Cloete, Webber x Maskrey, Kapp x Slabbert, Bestbier x Du Toit ________________________________ From: Michele Cocker <michele.cocker@mweb.co.za> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 21 November 2011, 8:00 Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages In my family tree - Bredenkamp (AFRICAN) and Viljoen (ASIAN) come to mind. -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Rodger Sent: 21 November 2011 07:16 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Ethnic Percentages On 21 Nov 2011, at 3:42 PM, Michele Cocker wrote: > You guys may want to add some ASIAN and AFRICAN to the mix. > > Have a look at The Cape Melting Pot by HF Heese I quite agree -- these would be particularly applicable to my Afrikaans grandmother (but not the other three grandparents, who came of some rural and some newly-academic Scottish stock, without any marine connections I have ever heard of, which means less scope for such mixtures), and to three of my wife's grandparents, one called Smith but possibly descended from a St Helena family, and two Afrikaans (Beelders and van Graan) with a "v.d.Kaap" showing up here and there in their lines.  That's why I covered both settlers and slaves in my previous comment.  Anyone with Heese and Lombard can look these names up; I got them from a friend's copy. Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sonia Where did you get this done? Regards Cate On 18 November 2011 14:47, Sonia van Heerden <soniavh11@hotmail.com> wrote: > > I think I have now ascertained the ethnic background of my husband's > family. > > His very Dutch VAN HEERDEN family is 27% Dutch, 40% German, 15% French > Huguenot and 12% English. > > His mother's German KRUGER family is 39% Dutch, 29% German, 24% French. > > This is taking each surname back to the 10th generation if possible. > > Taking into consideration the VAN HEERDEN and KRUGER family, the ethnic > background is 33% Dutch, 34% German, 19% French and 6% English. > > Vince Otto advised us years ago how to go about this exercise. > > Of course, my TKACHUK family is 100% Ukrainian from Ukraine and Poland. > > Regards > > Sonia Tkachuk van Heerden > Toronto, Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >