Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and I shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been frantic with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions Bulawayo (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking and beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living eventually in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of folk during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in WW1 as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those letters too and through them I know something about your history. I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went to Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very sad. Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has anything to help me Merry Christmas everyone Jean in Auckland -------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > Tombi wrote: > >> Keith, >> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... > > Tombi, > > I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they left > out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. > > It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's > time. > We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one > called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th Century > history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, and > the > Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, > it > was in a class called Geography. > > Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the > first > half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in > what > some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am in > accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose > genealogy, > with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
When I was in school all I ever learnt about the ABW was "Die donderse Ingelse het ons vroue en kinders vermoor" and nothing else. I was personally blamed on numerous occasions by my fellow pupils at the predominantly Afrikaans speaking high school I attended. Today I photograph the graves associated with the camps, so far having visited and photographed 5 of them, and strangely enough dont see any of those people who frothed at the mouth about the camps actually out there keeping the graves neat and tidy. The fact remains, that while it was a tragedy, it has tarnished relations between English and Afrikaans speakers since 1902 and is still a contentious subject and will continue to be so as long as there is still one Afrikaans molecule and one English molecule left in SA. and that is 0,2 cents worth. Derek. > > > >> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and > >> I > >> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of > >> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse > >> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and > >> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to > >> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been > >> frantic > >> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions > >> Bulawayo > >> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking > >> and > >> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary > >> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living > >> eventually > >> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of > >> folk > >> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer > >> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in > >> WW1 > >> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on > >> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those > >> letters too and through them I know something about your history. > >> > >> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went > >> to > >> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist > >> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very > >> sad. > >> > >> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has > >> anything to help me > >> > >> Merry Christmas everyone > >> Jean in Auckland > >> > >
I have a webpage about the Horses memorial in PE. http://www.allatsea.co.za/cems4/pehorsememorial.htm I must add the Weston one to my list of "get pics of" Derek. >As far as I know there are two horse memorials; One in Port >Elizabeth...professionally produced with a cast statue of a horse. I am sure >if you Googled Port Elizabeth history it would appear there. The other I >have seen was produced and erected at Weston Agricultural College near Mooi >River and opened in the past few years. Weston College was the site of a >re-mount centre where horses were collected from the area, trained and shod. >John D. > >-----Original Message----- >From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com >[mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tombi Peck >Sent: 12 December 2011 02:01 AM >To: south-africa@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > >One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the >fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from >Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! >There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. >Best wishes, >Tombi >-
On 12 Dec 2011 at 0:57, Keith Meintjes wrote: > Thank you. My Matric history textbook was by van Jaarsveld. A very respected > historian, I believe. He was not to blame for what I think are the omissions > in the syllabus. The one who was tarred and feathered by the AWB? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525
Well, let me see. Meintjes has English and Afrikaans-speaking members. Some in the Cape were in the British administration, some were politicians in the ZAR (Transvaal). There is a large coloured branch of the family. Some of my family was interned (and died) in the camps, other seem to have aided in running them. A great-uncle served in the British army in South Africa. A distant Scottish cousin Powrie was killed at Magersfontein. I suppose I am on all sides of the argument. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:29:28 AM EST From: Colin Möhr <mohr@lantic.net> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? Janee, One part of my extended family has cut off all communication with me, cause I found out that their great garndfather married a coloured woman! Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan Dorey-Venter" <doreyventer@gmail.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > John, > > You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and > skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of > a firing squad. > > All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. > > Johan. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Those times of South African history are, while tragic in so many respects, of a gripping nature. So much has been said and written about the Second Anglo Boer War, but for anybody who wants to enhance their knowledge of the subject you can hardly go wrong by obtaining a copy of Thomas Pakenham's "The Boer War". It reads easily and contains, in my view at least, a balanced and thought provoking description of the war. Get it, you will not be dissapointed. When it comes to the war's costs in lives and money, you will find references to it throughout the book, but perhaps more to the point in the Epilogue called "Winners and Losers" where the horrendous expenditure on the British side, the Boer population as well as the "Black" peoples who were caught up in the comflict is recounted. While their losses in lives were to a large extent been ignored until recently, it is a fact that in addition to the 19 concentration camps for Boer woman (elderly men) and children, where some 28 000 of them died from hunger, malnutrition and diseases; 65 camps were used to house 140 514 black people where at least 24 000 men women and children died in most atrocious conditions. While there were more than 100 000 casualties among the 365,693 imperial and 82,742 colonial soldiers on the British side, the 7,000 to 8,000 deaths among the 87,365 Boer soldiers - added to the deaths in the concentration camps - were far, far more significant on a relative scale. I once read (and unfortunately I can not remember where) what the demographic impact of these losses must have had and still have on the South African population, but it is enormous. Well, if only we will learn from the mistakes of the past, but it seems to happen over and over again - even in our time! Regards Johan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Frykberg" <patfryk@clear.net.nz> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... >I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request for > information about deaths at the concentration camps. > I simply want the facts. > They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is from > the more knowledgeable people on these lists. > I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. > Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have > read much about Emily Hobhouse. > Thanks all. > Pat Frykberg > > : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>> >>>Pat, >>> >>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >> you look >>>for biographies online for: >>> >>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>> >>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>> >>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>> >>>You can judge for yourself. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
Yes, you are right. Man's inhumanity to man is unending!! I've got to the point now where I seldom watch the news as there is so much nastiness reported.....I simply can't cope...all the appeals for money for droughts in Africa, floods in India etc....pictures of ill treated donkeys in North Africa etc, etc. etc......I simply can't cope...I don't have the money to give to charities to salve my conscience, can't DO anything to relive the various situations so would rather live in blissful ignorance. When one hears of the horrors of Sharia law, the mutilation of people, girls genitals etc. nothing seems to change....I used to read widely...I now find I am brooding on unpleasantness so have decided (rightly or wrongly) to avoid things which will upset me! Religious intololerance, national intolerance, colour intolerance....it simply goes on and on and on.....which is why I prefer working with my dead family members!! Some of my ancestors were responsible for lots of hideousness (Kings & Queens of Scotland and England, Norway, Denmark, France, Sweden, Spain.....(I take that all with a pinch of salt but the pointers all seem to be there)....according to what I have discovered Margaret Tudor is my 15th Great Grandmother, William the Conqueror my 28th great grandfather....just think what that bunch did!!!???? Best wishes, Tombi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan" <morgenthal@amobia.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > Those times of South African history are, while tragic in so many > respects, > of a gripping nature. So much has been said and written about the Second > Anglo Boer War, but for anybody who wants to enhance their knowledge of > the > subject you can hardly go wrong by obtaining a copy of Thomas Pakenham's > "The Boer War". It reads easily and contains, in my view at least, a > balanced and thought provoking description of the war. Get it, you will > not > be dissapointed. > When it comes to the war's costs in lives and money, you will find > references to it throughout the book, but perhaps more to the point in the > Epilogue called "Winners and Losers" where the horrendous expenditure on > the > British side, the Boer population as well as the "Black" peoples who were > caught up in the comflict is recounted. > While their losses in lives were to a large extent been ignored until > recently, it is a fact that in addition to the 19 concentration camps for > Boer woman (elderly men) and children, where some 28 000 of them died from > hunger, malnutrition and diseases; 65 camps were used to house 140 514 > black > people where at least 24 000 men women and children died in most atrocious > conditions. > While there were more than 100 000 casualties among the 365,693 imperial > and > 82,742 colonial soldiers on the British side, the 7,000 to 8,000 deaths > among the 87,365 Boer soldiers - added to the deaths in the concentration > camps - were far, far more significant on a relative scale. > I once read (and unfortunately I can not remember where) what the > demographic impact of these losses must have had and still have on the > South > African population, but it is enormous. > Well, if only we will learn from the mistakes of the past, but it seems to > happen over and over again - even in our time! > Regards > Johan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Frykberg" <patfryk@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > > >>I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request >>for >> information about deaths at the concentration camps. >> I simply want the facts. >> They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is >> from >> the more knowledgeable people on these lists. >> I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. >> Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have >> read much about Emily Hobhouse. >> Thanks all. >> Pat Frykberg >> >> : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>>> >>>>Pat, >>>> >>>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >>> you look >>>>for biographies online for: >>>> >>>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>>> >>>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>>> >>>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>>> >>>>You can judge for yourself. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >
As far as I know there are two horse memorials; One in Port Elizabeth...professionally produced with a cast statue of a horse. I am sure if you Googled Port Elizabeth history it would appear there. The other I have seen was produced and erected at Weston Agricultural College near Mooi River and opened in the past few years. Weston College was the site of a re-mount centre where horses were collected from the area, trained and shod. John D. -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tombi Peck Sent: 12 December 2011 02:01 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. Best wishes, Tombi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and I > shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of > south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse > contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and > informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to > his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been frantic > with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions > Bulawayo > (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking > and > beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary > too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living eventually > in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of folk > during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer > families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in WW1 > as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on > Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those > letters too and through them I know something about your history. > > I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went > to > Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist > victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very > sad. > > Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has > anything to help me > > Merry Christmas everyone > Jean in Auckland > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > >> Tombi wrote: >> >>> Keith, >>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >> >> Tombi, >> >> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >> left >> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >> >> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >> time. >> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >> Century >> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >> and >> the >> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, >> it >> was in a class called Geography. >> >> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >> first >> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >> what >> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >> in >> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >> genealogy, >> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11
Lynn There was a POW camp for German troops captured in and around the then German South West Africa 1915. It was at Aus on the Keetmanshoop/Luderitz railway. I have a list of some of them. Many died in the 1918 flu. I got this small booklet from Germany and later found it is available in Namibia. Patricia Frykberg -------------------------------------------------- From: "Lyn Oakes" <lynne.oakes@virgin.net> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:55 PM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] concentration camps/ WW1 POWs > I have been following the thread on the Boer War concentration camps. > Like > Pat, I enjoy learning history from real, "on the ground", stories to get a > better idea of how people lived aside from official history. > > Are there any such records available (on line, hopefully) of First World > War > POW camps in South Africa? My German grandfather, arrested in what was > Southern Rhodesia, spent the war in a pow camp in Pietermaritzburg. > Grandpa > is a major brickwall in my research and as I am retiring shortly I am > looking for anything to help knock a few chinks into his family. > > Season's greetings from a rapidly chilling UK > > Lynette > Surrey > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4074 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >
I do have a copy! TP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan" <morgenthal@amobia.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > Those times of South African history are, while tragic in so many > respects, > of a gripping nature. So much has been said and written about the Second > Anglo Boer War, but for anybody who wants to enhance their knowledge of > the > subject you can hardly go wrong by obtaining a copy of Thomas Pakenham's > "The Boer War". It reads easily and contains, in my view at least, a > balanced and thought provoking description of the war. Get it, you will > not > be dissapointed. > When it comes to the war's costs in lives and money, you will find > references to it throughout the book, but perhaps more to the point in the > Epilogue called "Winners and Losers" where the horrendous expenditure on > the > British side, the Boer population as well as the "Black" peoples who were > caught up in the comflict is recounted. > While their losses in lives were to a large extent been ignored until > recently, it is a fact that in addition to the 19 concentration camps for > Boer woman (elderly men) and children, where some 28 000 of them died from > hunger, malnutrition and diseases; 65 camps were used to house 140 514 > black > people where at least 24 000 men women and children died in most atrocious > conditions. > While there were more than 100 000 casualties among the 365,693 imperial > and > 82,742 colonial soldiers on the British side, the 7,000 to 8,000 deaths > among the 87,365 Boer soldiers - added to the deaths in the concentration > camps - were far, far more significant on a relative scale. > I once read (and unfortunately I can not remember where) what the > demographic impact of these losses must have had and still have on the > South > African population, but it is enormous. > Well, if only we will learn from the mistakes of the past, but it seems to > happen over and over again - even in our time! > Regards > Johan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Frykberg" <patfryk@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > > >>I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request >>for >> information about deaths at the concentration camps. >> I simply want the facts. >> They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is >> from >> the more knowledgeable people on these lists. >> I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. >> Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have >> read much about Emily Hobhouse. >> Thanks all. >> Pat Frykberg >> >> : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>>> >>>>Pat, >>>> >>>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >>> you look >>>>for biographies online for: >>>> >>>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>>> >>>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>>> >>>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>>> >>>>You can judge for yourself. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >
Hi Tombi, The "Elke steek is n steek in die hart van God!" remark was from the ultra-conservative Calvinistic upbringing that a lot of Afrikaners had. Any form of needle-work on a Sunday was taboo. I used to hate history as a school subject, but I could never hear enough of the history I learnt at home. My great-grandfather's younger brother, Frank Dorey, lived and worked amongst the "uitlanders" in Johannesburg, but he fought on the South African side, was captured and sent to St Helena as a POW. Three of my grandfather's older brothers were on commando, and my great-grandparents with the younger children were in the concentration camp at Balmoral. All "engelse" on the Boer side. Johan.
Dear Keith I am collecting old history text books. I however do not have an English secondary school one for the 1960's The authors of an Afrikaans one was among other Wiid and Geyer. I can scan you the contents page as I guess the syllabus would have been the same for the English schools? Kind regards Daniel Jacobs On 12/12/11, Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> wrote: > Tombi wrote: > >> Keith, >> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... > > Tombi, > > I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they left > out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. > > It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's time. > We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one > called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th Century > history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, and > the > Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, it > was in a class called Geography. > > Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the > first > half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in what > some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am in > accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose genealogy, > with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Vir gratis Genealogiese Handleiding: http://gendata.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=28 Siebrits/du Toit/Meyer/Zeeman/De Villiers (Franschhoek/Paarl) Jacobs/Oberholster/Smith (Graaff-Reinet/Fauresmith) Le Roux/Van der Merwe (Villiersdorp) Louw/Brink (Kaapstad/Wellington) De Vos (De Doorns/Wellington) Malan (Wellington/Zeerust) Ungerer (Swellendam) Smith (Wellington)
On 11 Dec 2011 at 20:47, tombipeck@talktalk.net wrote: > I have a very sad photograph of own of my relations, a little girl, > taken in a concentration camp....it certainly sharpens the mind! > I worked with a woman at the Mines Benefit Society in Braamfontein who > disliked me thoroughly as I was English Speaking...her grandmother had > been in one of the concenration camps. One Monday morning I said I'd > been embroidering a bib for my expected first child the previous day... > her comment to me was "Elke steek is n steek in die hart van God!".... > not terribly charitable I didn't think! <snipped for brevity> Thanks very much for that, Tombi. An interesting example of how family history is affected by general history. -- Steve Hayes E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525
She was a remarkable woman....Emily Hobhouse. Did a lot of wonderful work! Best wishes, Tombi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Frykberg" <patfryk@clear.net.nz> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... >I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request for > information about deaths at the concentration camps. > I simply want the facts. > They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is from > the more knowledgeable people on these lists. > I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. > Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have > read much about Emily Hobhouse. > Thanks all. > Pat Frykberg > > : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>> >>>Pat, >>> >>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >> you look >>>for biographies online for: >>> >>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>> >>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>> >>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>> >>>You can judge for yourself. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >
Daniel, Thank you. My Matric history textbook was by van Jaarsveld. A very respected historian, I believe. He was not to blame for what I think are the omissions in the syllabus. I would like to see the contents of the books you have. I think the syllabus (for whites) varied between the then four provinces, not between English and Afrikaans. Best wishes, Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:38:22 AM EST From: Daniel Jacobs <danielmalanjacobs@gmail.com> To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then Dear Keith I am collecting old history text books. I however do not have an English secondary school one for the 1960's The authors of an Afrikaans one was among other Wiid and Geyer. I can scan you the contents page as I guess the syllabus would have been the same for the English schools? Kind regards Daniel Jacobs On 12/12/11, Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> wrote: > Tombi wrote: > >> Keith, >> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... > > Tombi, > > I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they left > out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. > > It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's time. > We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one > called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th Century > history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, and > the > Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, it > was in a class called Geography. > > Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the > first > half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in what > some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am in > accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose genealogy, > with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Vir gratis Genealogiese Handleiding: http://gendata.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=28 Siebrits/du Toit/Meyer/Zeeman/De Villiers (Franschhoek/Paarl) Jacobs/Oberholster/Smith (Graaff-Reinet/Fauresmith) Le Roux/Van der Merwe (Villiersdorp) Louw/Brink (Kaapstad/Wellington) De Vos (De Doorns/Wellington) Malan (Wellington/Zeerust) Ungerer (Swellendam) Smith (Wellington) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. Best wishes, Tombi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and I > shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of > south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse > contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and > informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to > his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been frantic > with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions > Bulawayo > (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking > and > beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary > too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living eventually > in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of folk > during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer > families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in WW1 > as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on > Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those > letters too and through them I know something about your history. > > I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went > to > Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist > victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very > sad. > > Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has > anything to help me > > Merry Christmas everyone > Jean in Auckland > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > >> Tombi wrote: >> >>> Keith, >>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >> >> Tombi, >> >> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >> left >> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >> >> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >> time. >> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >> Century >> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >> and >> the >> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, >> it >> was in a class called Geography. >> >> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >> first >> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >> what >> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >> in >> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >> genealogy, >> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >
Welsh author Richard Llewellyn in his classic novel "How Green Was My Valley" writes about his dead loved ones: "But you have gone now, all of you, that were so beautiful when you were quick with life. Yet not gone, for you are still a living truth inside my mind. So how are you dead, my brothers and sisters, and all of you, when you live with me as surely as I live myself.... How green was my valley, then, and the valley of then that have gone." Wishing you all a blessed festive season filled with love and good cheer. May 2004 see more walls tumbling! Ill be back as soon as I have sorted out my temperamental computer! Best wishes Becky Port Elizabeth, South Africa Researching: HENWICK; HILL; HORN(E); MEREDITH; DEYZEL; LARSEN; WILSON; LYNAR; HENNING; STERLEY; THECK; BEST; BRAUN, GREENER; GLANVILLE.
Keith, You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English Medium school in the Transvaal although we did the Great Trek to death we learned absolutely nothing about the Anglo-Boer war and even less about the Concentration Camps. I was probably more aware of the problems suffered at the time; my first cousin 3 times removed Sir Theophilus Shepstone annexed the Transvaal to the British Crown; my 4th cousin 3 times removed was Pres. Paul Kruger. My gg grandparents farm Haverklip near Delmas had all the buildings destroyed by a New Zealand Battalion as part of the scorched earth policy...my gg grandparents middle son was married to a 'Dutch Woman' he was imprisoned in Springs because of supplying her brothers and cousins with supplies (he said unwillingly). My gg grandmother received compensation after the war. Amazingly 100 years later the walls of the main house are still standing. To add insult to injury the British built a blockhouse not many yards from the rear of the house. Judging by he number of 'doppies' that can be found around the house there must have been a heck of a scrap there!. Ranging bullet holes can still be seen in the plasterwork of the sittingroom obviously fired from the window. My gg grandmother wasn't in residence at the time...my great grandfather having been made bankrupt during the rinderpest outbreak of 1895 had lost his farm at Heidelberg and was working down in the Cape at De Aar.....although my gg grandmother Maria Susanna Wilhelmina BROWNE born HART was compensated the son who was imprisoned, Charles Lennox Stretch BROWNE went on claiming compensation for the same damage (why we don't know the farm didn't belong to him but to his mother)...his son wrote the last letter claiming compensation as late as 1934. Fortunately for me Tessa King kindly photographed the file for me.... it makes interesting reading!! Charles Lennox Stretch BROWNE's sister Maria Susannah Wilhemina MULCAHY, born BROWNE was married to Major Sir Francis MULCAHY who was with the Commissary in the British Army...he was sent to South Africa during the first Anglo Boer War which was when he and 'Minnie' met. I probably knew more about what had happened than most English speaking girls because the family discussed what had happened. Another 4th cousin of mine twice removed was sent in open cattle truck from the Orange Free State to Natal with his mother when he was 3 (so I understand)....he was Pres. Blackie SWART who understandibly held a grudge against the British thereafter. I have a very sad photograph of own of my relations, a little girl, taken in a concentration camp....it certainly sharpens the mind! I worked with a woman at the Mines Benefit Society in Braamfontein who disliked me thoroughly as I was English Speaking...her grandmother had been in one of the concenration camps. One Monday morning I said I'd been embroidering a bib for my expected first child the previous day... her comment to me was "Elke steek is n steek in die hart van God!".... not terribly charitable I didn't think! Best wishes, Tombi Peck >----Original Message---- >From: umfundi@usa.net >Date: 11/12/2011 20:19 >To: "Pat Frykberg"<patfryk@clear.net.nz>, <shayes@dunelm.org.uk>, "Keith Meintjes"<umfundi@usa.net>, <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >Subj: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. > >Pat, > >A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest you look >for biographies online for: > >Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS > >Horatio Herbert KITCHENER > >Emily HOBHOUSE > >You can judge for yourself. Roberts started the "scorched earth" policy of >burning farms, which led to the need for refugee camps. Kitchener continued >and refined the policy, to depopulate the countryside, hence the need to >"concentrate" the population. Emily Hobhouse was a British social worker. > >Read the biographies, and judge for yourself. It's a very tragic story. > >I sure wish I had kept my high school history textbooks. What they didn't tell >us! > >Best wishes, > >Keith > >------ Original Message ------ >Received: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:50:11 PM EST >From: Pat Frykberg <patfryk@clear.net.nz> >To: shayes@dunelm.org.uk, Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net>, >south-africa@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. > >Thanks Steve. As I recall this part of our history was not taught at school >(certainly not during the 40/50/ Nor at University. ) >I am interested because it was a very important part in the life of one of >my ancestors. And I knew, and know, very little, so I am filling in that >part of my family history. In fact I think it is true to say that I have >learnt more about South African History since doing genealogy than I ever >knew before in spite of having a BA in History. The whole eastern Province >and the South African War, the old Transvaal....... Oh I could go on and on. >I am the richer for what these lists have given me. > In fact I depend on them. >Patricia Frykberg (aka Pat) > >-------------------------------------------------- >>> The issue of the Anglo-Boer War Concentration Camps has hardly been >>> discussed >>> on this site. >>> >. >>> >>> It's history. >> >> It's also one of the points where family meets general history. >> >> A lot of people will have relatives who were interned or died in the >> camps, >> and so the considerations and policies that led to their establishment are >> also of interest. >> >> >> -- >> Steve Hayes >> E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk >> Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) >> Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com >> Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 >> Fax: 086-548-2525 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4071 - Release Date: 12/09/11 >> > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Tombi wrote: > Keith, > You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English > Medium school in the Transvaal although ... Tombi, I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they left out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's time. We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th Century history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, and the Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, it was in a class called Geography. Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the first half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in what some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am in accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose genealogy, with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. Best wishes, Keith
Hi Lynette, What is your grandfather's name? Have a look at the document at this URL it may or may not have his name. http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/available/etd-03072006-095936/unrestricted/14back.pdf Also have you checked the Rhodesian death notices on www.familysearch.org? They are not searchable as such yet....but do have an index. Best Wishes and Happy Christmas from a not so windy, but wet day in Manchester. Dorri > From: lynne.oakes@virgin.net > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:55:27 +0000 > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] concentration camps/ WW1 POWs snip > Are there any such records available (on line, hopefully) of First World War > POW camps in South Africa? My German grandfather, arrested in what was > Southern Rhodesia, spent the war in a pow camp in Pietermaritzburg. Grandpa > is a major brickwall in my research and as I am retiring shortly I am > looking for anything to help knock a few chinks into his family. > > Season's greetings from a rapidly chilling UK > > Lynette > Surrey >