Derek, You said: "The fact remains, that while it was a tragedy, it has tarnished relations between English and Afrikaans speakers since 1902 and is still a contentious subject and will continue to be so as long as there is still one Afrikaans molecule and one English molecule left in SA." It is not about being being Afrikaans or English, or even about the colour of our skin. It is all about being unforgiving and intolerant. As long as we can not forgive one another for what our ancestors did to each other, there will never be peace in this world. Enough said. Let me get off my soapbox before someone kicks it out from underneath me. Johan.

Hi Keith, thank you so much for your response! I know the first one is my aunt Ramona. Not sure about the second one - JK doesn't fit any of my relative's initials... The site you mentioned is one of the site's I have already searched over and over again. It seems only Paul's mother is listed... Thank you again for your assistance. It is ever so appreciated! ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> wrote: > Elle, > > Try these: > > R Crawley > Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng > 0116093769 > > J K Crawley > Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng > 0114521648 > > http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za > > Keith > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST > From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> > To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any > ideas... > > I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. > I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in > person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married > next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins > (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that > side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try > to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting > family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at > this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. > > I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, > out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away > relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific > reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on > the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. > > Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I > found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. > > His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I > know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about > 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a > sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these > ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of > them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been > told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure > what he does for a living. > > Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. > Happy Holidays! > ~LDC > elle.d.see@gmail.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you Keith, I'm with you on this one, I did history until matric at DGHS, but only now that I'm seeing the history in terms of the effect it had on my forebears lives has it come alive and I have the desire to learn more. My great grandfather and 4 of his brothers were boers in concentration camps, and my paternal great grandparents were of English descent. I make no judgements it was the times but the knowledge and understanding of history helps to to put their lives and times in context. Thank you to all on this site each day I learn a little more. A safe and merry xmas to you all Dee I am much more interested in >> what >> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >> in >> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >> genealogy, >> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >> -------------------------------------------------- From: <south-africa-request@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:33 PM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: SOUTH-AFRICA Digest, Vol 6, Issue 355 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Scorched Earth Policy..... (Johan Dorey-Venter) > 2. Re: History as taught then (Tombi Peck) > 3. Re: Scorched Earth Policy..... (Pat Frykberg) > 4. Re: History as taught then (Jean Tuckey) > 5. Re: Scorched Earth Policy..... (Tombi Peck) > 6. Re: Scorched Earth Policy..... (Steve Hayes) > 7. Re: History as taught then (Daniel Jacobs) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:41:53 +0800 > From: Johan Dorey-Venter <doreyventer@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAATw6JMcr2rCmCUGdwcY5nYv4gfS4A7oxa2m3S6Cmf8dkmhf5w@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi Tombi, > > The "Elke steek is n steek in die hart van God!" remark was from the > ultra-conservative Calvinistic upbringing that a lot of Afrikaners > had. Any form of needle-work on a Sunday was taboo. > > I used to hate history as a school subject, but I could never hear > enough of the history I learnt at home. > > My great-grandfather's younger brother, Frank Dorey, lived and worked > amongst the "uitlanders" in Johannesburg, but he fought on the South > African side, was captured and sent to St Helena as a POW. Three of my > grandfather's older brothers were on commando, and my > great-grandparents with the younger children were in the concentration > camp at Balmoral. All "engelse" on the Boer side. > > Johan. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 00:01:09 -0000 > From: "Tombi Peck" <tombipeck@talktalk.net> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <348DE7F49A96477E82B40654AE797D6A@tombipeck> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the > fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from > Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! > There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. > Best wishes, > Tombi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > > >> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and >> I >> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of >> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse >> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and >> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to >> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been >> frantic >> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions >> Bulawayo >> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking >> and >> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary >> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living >> eventually >> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of >> folk >> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer >> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in >> WW1 >> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on >> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those >> letters too and through them I know something about your history. >> >> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went >> to >> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist >> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very >> sad. >> >> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has >> anything to help me >> >> Merry Christmas everyone >> Jean in Auckland >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> >> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM >> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >> >>> Tombi wrote: >>> >>>> Keith, >>>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >>> >>> Tombi, >>> >>> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >>> left >>> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >>> >>> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >>> time. >>> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >>> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >>> Century >>> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >>> and >>> the >>> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not >>> history, >>> it >>> was in a class called Geography. >>> >>> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >>> first >>> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >>> what >>> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >>> in >>> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >>> genealogy, >>> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:24:04 +1300 > From: Pat Frykberg <patfryk@clear.net.nz> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <352E03A4CE5D4CA0B64A9A14D34AC223@PatricaPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request > for > information about deaths at the concentration camps. > I simply want the facts. > They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is from > the more knowledgeable people on these lists. > I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. > Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have > read much about Emily Hobhouse. > Thanks all. > Pat Frykberg > > : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>> >>>Pat, >>> >>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >> you look >>>for biographies online for: >>> >>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>> >>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>> >>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>> >>>You can judge for yourself. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:29:11 +1300 > From: Jean Tuckey <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <FBBA019DF59B491289DB79A5134758E6@jeanxp> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > I have photographs of the many dead horses...its terrible...my > Father-in-law > took his back to New Zealand but then he was a lucky one!! Jean > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Tombi Peck" <tombipeck@talktalk.net> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:01 PM > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > >> One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was >> the >> fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from >> Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! >> There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. >> Best wishes, >> Tombi >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> >> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM >> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >> >> >>> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and >>> I >>> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of >>> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse >>> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting >>> and >>> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing >>> to >>> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been >>> frantic >>> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions >>> Bulawayo >>> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking >>> and >>> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his >>> diary >>> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living >>> eventually >>> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of >>> folk >>> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer >>> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in >>> WW1 >>> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on >>> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed >>> those >>> letters too and through them I know something about your history. >>> >>> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went >>> to >>> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist >>> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very >>> sad. >>> >>> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has >>> anything to help me >>> >>> Merry Christmas everyone >>> Jean in Auckland >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------- >>> From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> >>> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM >>> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >>> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >>> >>>> Tombi wrote: >>>> >>>>> Keith, >>>>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>>>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >>>> >>>> Tombi, >>>> >>>> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >>>> left >>>> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >>>> >>>> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >>>> time. >>>> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and >>>> one >>>> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >>>> Century >>>> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >>>> and >>>> the >>>> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not >>>> history, >>>> it >>>> was in a class called Geography. >>>> >>>> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >>>> first >>>> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >>>> what >>>> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >>>> in >>>> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >>>> genealogy, >>>> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >>>> >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>>> Keith >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: >>> 12/11/11 >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 01:04:28 -0000 > From: "Tombi Peck" <tombipeck@talktalk.net> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <DDD11B8F0BF74986BF8BDFDD891BDC48@tombipeck> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > She was a remarkable woman....Emily Hobhouse. > Did a lot of wonderful work! > Best wishes, > Tombi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Frykberg" <patfryk@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:24 AM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > > >>I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request >>for >> information about deaths at the concentration camps. >> I simply want the facts. >> They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is >> from >> the more knowledgeable people on these lists. >> I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. >> Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have >> read much about Emily Hobhouse. >> Thanks all. >> Pat Frykberg >> >> : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >>>> >>>>Pat, >>>> >>>>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest >>> you look >>>>for biographies online for: >>>> >>>>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >>>> >>>>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >>>> >>>>Emily HOBHOUSE >>>> >>>>You can judge for yourself. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:48:38 +0200 > From: "Steve Hayes" <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Scorched Earth Policy..... > To: "tombipeck@talktalk.net" <tombipeck@talktalk.net>, > south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4EE57996.20601.3B664C@localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 11 Dec 2011 at 20:47, tombipeck@talktalk.net wrote: > >> I have a very sad photograph of own of my relations, a little girl, >> taken in a concentration camp....it certainly sharpens the mind! >> I worked with a woman at the Mines Benefit Society in Braamfontein who >> disliked me thoroughly as I was English Speaking...her grandmother had >> been in one of the concenration camps. One Monday morning I said I'd >> been embroidering a bib for my expected first child the previous day... >> her comment to me was "Elke steek is n steek in die hart van God!".... >> not terribly charitable I didn't think! > > <snipped for brevity> > > Thanks very much for that, Tombi. An interesting example of how family > history is affected by general history. > > > -- > Steve Hayes > E-mail: shayes@dunelm.org.uk > Web: http://hayesstw.tumblr.com/ (follow me on Tumblr) > Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com > Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 > Fax: 086-548-2525 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:33:40 +0200 > From: Daniel Jacobs <danielmalanjacobs@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAKxK6KyHymctNOfCY06cjsJD3n0vL+sa=tc1Lns0S0GT5jPfzw@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear Keith > > I am collecting old history text books. I however do not have an > English secondary school one for the 1960's The authors of an > Afrikaans one was among other Wiid and Geyer. I can scan you the > contents page as I guess the syllabus would have been the same for the > English schools? > > Kind regards > > Daniel Jacobs > > On 12/12/11, Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> wrote: >> Tombi wrote: >> >>> Keith, >>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >> >> Tombi, >> >> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >> left >> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >> >> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >> time. >> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >> Century >> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >> and >> the >> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not history, >> it >> was in a class called Geography. >> >> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >> first >> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >> what >> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >> in >> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >> genealogy, >> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > -- > Vir gratis Genealogiese Handleiding: > http://gendata.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=28 > > Siebrits/du Toit/Meyer/Zeeman/De Villiers (Franschhoek/Paarl) > Jacobs/Oberholster/Smith (Graaff-Reinet/Fauresmith) > Le Roux/Van der Merwe (Villiersdorp) > Louw/Brink (Kaapstad/Wellington) > De Vos (De Doorns/Wellington) > Malan (Wellington/Zeerust) > Ungerer (Swellendam) > Smith (Wellington) > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SOUTH-AFRICA list administrator, send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the SOUTH-AFRICA mailing list, send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SOUTH-AFRICA Digest, Vol 6, Issue 355 > ********************************************

Elle, Try these: R Crawley Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng 0116093769 J K Crawley Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng 0114521648 http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any ideas... I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure what he does for a living. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays! ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Johan, I had not previously read a sympathetic report. Do you know where the source material is located? John -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Johan Sent: 12 December 2011 05:09 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/Bethulie Hi John Interesting about the Major, but perhaps you are a bit harsh on him. Perhaps you should go to the Norval Family website where quite a bit is recalled about the Bethulie (and Norvals Pont) concentration camp. http://www.norval-family.co.za/index.php/tt?showall=&limitstart= It seems that the Major was thrown into the deep end, and history did not judge him kindly, although it must count against him that in contrast the Norvals Pont camp was looked upon as a "model establisment". Firstly, so it seems to me, he was not an administrator to speak of (like, I suppose many of the camp authorities). Secondly his staff was too small and incompetent; Thirdly his superiors seem to have been incompetent as well; Fourthly he was swamped by a human tidal wave that he could not accommodate with the infrastructure at his disposal; Fithly, he was constantly without sufficient provisions and medical staff and medicines. No wonder the man virtually gave up and let things go from bad to worse so that almost 2000 of 5000 inmates died over a 13 month period of hunger, diseases and exposure to atrocious weather conditions. Regards Johan Morgenthal Stellenbosch ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Deare" <dearej@mweb.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/ WW1 POWs/ Zambia post ABW > Have you heard of the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > He was a man who had been a hero in earlier years in the Eastern Cape > leading his troops from the Prince Alfred Guard in the notorious K Wars. > I have read that he was instrumental in setting up a Rocket system to send > lines to stricken ships during storms off Port Elizabeth. He is recorded > as > receiving a commendation for sending supplies to the survivors of Rorkes > Drift. Then during The Anglo Boer war he was appointed as a Camp Commander > at Bethulie where he was obviously unsuitable for the job. He had no > knowledge or experience in handling civilians, their dietary requirements > and establishing a sanitation system. Fortunately the Brits fired him and > installed a new camp Supervisor who rectified the situation within weeks. > His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation. > [cut] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4676 - Release Date: 12/12/11

Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any ideas... I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure what he does for a living. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays! ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com

On 12 Dec 2011, at 7:09 AM, Pat Frykberg wrote: > Lynn There was a POW camp for German troops captured in and around > the then > German South West Africa 1915. It was at Aus on the Keetmanshoop/ > Luderitz > railway. I have a list of some of them. Many died in the 1918 flu. > I got > this small booklet from Germany and later found it is available in > Namibia. > Patricia Frykberg > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Lyn Oakes" <lynne.oakes@virgin.net> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:55 PM > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] concentration camps/ WW1 POWs > >> I have been following the thread on the Boer War concentration camps. >> Like >> Pat, I enjoy learning history from real, "on the ground", stories >> to get a >> better idea of how people lived aside from official history. >> >> Are there any such records available (on line, hopefully) of First >> World >> War >> POW camps in South Africa? My German grandfather, arrested in >> what was >> Southern Rhodesia, spent the war in a pow camp in Pietermaritzburg. >> Grandpa >> is a major brickwall in my research and as I am retiring shortly I am >> looking for anything to help knock a few chinks into his family. >> >> Season's greetings from a rapidly chilling UK >> >> Lynette >> Surrey There is a distinction between Concentration Camps. during the Boer War and later, and POW camps, in the first (and second) world war and before and since. As I understand it, a concentration camp is where civilian enemy aliens are interned for the duration to ensure that they cannot convey intelligence to their home countries, but also because for the last 100 years and more it has been considered anomalous to have such individuals wandering around at liberty when their country is one's enemy in a declared war. It was not always thus, of course: there are many instances of aliens wandering around without regard to the war in earlier times. At some stage the concept of "total war" came into being, probably because of the increasingly strong part played by ideology in war, especially the ideologies associated with absolutist governments like those of the Fascist and Communist stripes (which has fascinating parallels with today's increasing isolation of Islamism as both sides harden their attitudes). There are suggestions of the beginning of this in Dickens' account of the French Revolution, "A Tale of Two Cities", and it reached its peak (so far as Communism and the West were concerned) in the Cold War, and in the Gulags. Prisoners of War are military personnel who are detained to deprive the enemy of their services. These are supposedly governed by the international laws of war known as the Geneva Convention, though both sides broke the rules now and then, the Germans (I think) more than the Allies in WWs I and II. An example from WW I concerned the sinking by a German U-Boat of a clearly marked Hospital Ship, en route from Canada where it had taken wounded British personnel, to pick up a fresh batch in the UK; this took place off the Fastnet (south of Ireland), and my wife's uncle Charlie FULTON was one of those lost, whether from the ship itself or from the life-boats which the U-Boat commander also directed should be destroyed, we don't know. (Some boats were missed, and that is how we know what happened; the second officer was tried at the ensuing War Crimes Tribunal, but the commander, who had claimed to suspect that the ship was carrying fresh troops, but knew full well that he had broken the law, wisely decamped to Poland before he could be arrested; Poland, newly independent, had no extradition treaty with either Germany or the UK.) And Guantanamo Bay could be cited as an example from the Western side in a much more recent conflict . . . My grandmother, Josephine Maria HAARHOFF, was a nurse with the neutral German Ambulance in the Boer War, and treated men from both sides; later, she was a medical missionary in the Chinsali District of what is now Zambia, where she met her husband, Robert Donald MacMINN, who was working for the Church of Scotland and founded Lubwa Mission. He gets a (not very flattering) mention in "The Africa House" by Christina Lamb; their only child was my mother, born in 1911. Her story brings home to me that one cannot really geberalize in questions such as those raised in this long discussion. Yes, the British committed atrocities in several conflicts -- and so did their enemies. Yes, Islamist extremists have done some terrible things -- but Islamists have suffered terrible things too. Sadly, because of such generalization, the innocent (so far as anyone is innocent, but remember St Paul's assertion that ALL men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) have suffered along with the guilty; that is the nature of policy motivated by revenge. So I'm with those Listers who are urging the parties to this dispute to cool it, and refrain from indulging in abuse. Let's all just calm down, and discuss it (if we must, and if we have something constructive to contribute) calmly and rationally. BTW, I have been wondering where our estimable List-Owner has been in all this -- on holiday? Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

I was born in Kimberley, a City full of history and from an early age learnt a great deal about the discovery of diamonds and the Anglo Boer War as my grandfather had been one of the early pioneers of the town and had also had taken part in the defence of Kimberley being one of the men that built the Long Cecil Gun. I was shown his Kimberley Star medal which was issued to all who helped to defend the town. As it is not a military medal it has to be worn on the right side of one's jacket. Once in I while my father used to take us out to areas outside the town to where skirmishes occurred and there fifty years after, some of the redoubts and shallow trenches were still visible. The great thing about these excursions was the hunting for spent ''doppies'' and bits of shrapnel that could still be found there. A very big outing would be a ride down to Modder River to the battlefield there and then on to the Magersfontein Battlefield. As a result , as I grew older, history became a hobby and over the years I have read a number of books on the subject of the Anglo Boer War, a subject that I equate with Politics and Religion, a subject to read up and then formulate one's own opinion but never get involved in heavy discussion. I have listed below some of the books I have read in case anyone would like to contact their library and read further on the subject. The South African and Transvaal War - Louis Creswicke in 5 volumes very biased towards Britain but has excellent photos and sketches of battles Commando - Denys Reitz The Hall Handbook of the Anglo Boer War - Darrell Hall Memoirs of the Boer War - Jan Smuts Life on Commando - Fransjan Pretorius Fire in the Sky - Owen Coetzer This is an excellent book on the Scorched Earth Policy and the Concentration Camps and the conditions there-in and Emily Hobhouse. Road to Infamy - Owen Coetzer The Concentration Camps A.C. Martin General De Wet - Eric Rosenthall Opsaal - W.H. Ackermann Goodbye Dolly Gray Rayne Kruger No Charge for Delivery - C.W.L. De Souza . This is a book of telegrammes sent during the War by Boer forces. The Diary of Iris Vaughn - Iris Vaughn The war in the Cradock area A Century of Anglo Boer War Stories - Chris v.d. Merwe and Michael Rice. Am about to read this over the holidays. Basil Brown

I have a suspicion that my Granddad's brother did the same thing. I found in an old telephone directory this family living near Soweto. They all had the same family first names. Regrettably I could never make contact with any of them to check. It would be so interesting. The family legend was that the brother absconded with Granddad's horse and cart and was never heard of again. But pleeeze...our family name is a bit unusual. John -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Colin Möhr Sent: 12 December 2011 05:15 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? Janee, One part of my extended family has cut off all communication with me, cause I found out that their great garndfather married a coloured woman! Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan Dorey-Venter" <doreyventer@gmail.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > John, > > You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and > skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of > a firing squad. > > All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. > > Johan. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4676 - Release Date: 12/12/11

Janee, One part of my extended family has cut off all communication with me, cause I found out that their great garndfather married a coloured woman! Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan Dorey-Venter" <doreyventer@gmail.com> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > John, > > You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and > skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of > a firing squad. > > All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. > > Johan. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi John Interesting about the Major, but perhaps you are a bit harsh on him. Perhaps you should go to the Norval Family website where quite a bit is recalled about the Bethulie (and Norvals Pont) concentration camp. http://www.norval-family.co.za/index.php/tt?showall=&limitstart= It seems that the Major was thrown into the deep end, and history did not judge him kindly, although it must count against him that in contrast the Norvals Pont camp was looked upon as a "model establisment". Firstly, so it seems to me, he was not an administrator to speak of (like, I suppose many of the camp authorities). Secondly his staff was too small and incompetent; Thirdly his superiors seem to have been incompetent as well; Fourthly he was swamped by a human tidal wave that he could not accommodate with the infrastructure at his disposal; Fithly, he was constantly without sufficient provisions and medical staff and medicines. No wonder the man virtually gave up and let things go from bad to worse so that almost 2000 of 5000 inmates died over a 13 month period of hunger, diseases and exposure to atrocious weather conditions. Regards Johan Morgenthal Stellenbosch ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Deare" <dearej@mweb.co.za> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/ WW1 POWs/ Zambia post ABW > Have you heard of the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > He was a man who had been a hero in earlier years in the Eastern Cape > leading his troops from the Prince Alfred Guard in the notorious K Wars. > I have read that he was instrumental in setting up a Rocket system to send > lines to stricken ships during storms off Port Elizabeth. He is recorded > as > receiving a commendation for sending supplies to the survivors of Rorkes > Drift. Then during The Anglo Boer war he was appointed as a Camp Commander > at Bethulie where he was obviously unsuitable for the job. He had no > knowledge or experience in handling civilians, their dietary requirements > and establishing a sanitation system. Fortunately the Brits fired him and > installed a new camp Supervisor who rectified the situation within weeks. > His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation. > [cut] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Brown" <jdhb@johndhb.me.uk> > How many of us can truly claim that not one of our ancestors ever did > something unpleasant, even shocking, ......> > John B > Leic., Eng > John, and as generations come and go, feelings soften and one is inclined to at least forgive. Years ago my grandfather would have retorted: "Ja, like my cousin having been a handsupper and hanskakie during the Engelse Oorlog". I mean that was the worst you could have done to your fellow man in those days. But then one should see his attitude in context: He was forced to be present in Church Square in Middelburg in the Cape Colony when another cousin was sentenced to death for having been a rebel and Commandant of a Commando of Boer rebels earlier in the war, and that experience and the actions of his treasonous relative was never forgotten or forgiven. Fortunately time has its way to calm emotions down and it is now easier to look at these things as interesting but still tragic happenings in the family that one can talk about Regards Johan Morgenthal -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message

Hi Colin, It didn't happen in an extended part of my family, but in a fairly central part......! I won't mention surnames because there are others in the family who are not quite as comfortable with the situation as I am! One of my great great grandfather's nephews married a woman of colour and they had 10 children. One of their daughters died in Kliptown in the year I was born. I worked on the family tree with her granddaughter who was born in Kliptown, Transvaal two years before I was born is my 4th cousin, the same relationship I share with most of the cousins with whom I am busily working on a number of trees.. We must have lived fairly close to one another when I was in digs in the Hospital Hill area of Johannesburg while studying at Johannesburg Polytechnic. We didn't stay in touch; she seemed a little uncomfortable with me. Very sad that a matter of skin colour could make such a difference to a relationship.. Best wishes, Tombi Peck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Möhr" <mohr@lantic.net> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > Janee, > One part of my extended family has cut off all communication with me, > cause > I found out that their great garndfather married a coloured woman! > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Johan Dorey-Venter" <doreyventer@gmail.com> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > > >> John, >> >> You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and >> skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of >> a firing squad. >> >> All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. >> >> Johan. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >

My whole interest in Genealogy was sparked by seeing Deare Street in Port Elizabeth while on a business trip in the 70's. There was a whole family there and a Company called Deare & Deitz. However, my grandfather changed the spelling of his name when he was arrested as a vagrant after jumping ship in Cape Town at age 13. So our original surname spelling was Dear. There are other skeletons and skebengas to be found with a little digging. :) John -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Johan Dorey-Venter Sent: 12 December 2011 03:06 PM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? Deare John, "His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation." Maybe you have just not yet found the link? <very big tongue-in-cheek> Us genealogists all have a few missing links. And maybe, a few missing "varkies" too. I know I have. Johan. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11

HI Tombi" We all grew up with that saying. I can still hear my grandmother muttering "Elke steek is n steek in die oog van die Here" If you dared sewing a botton on while wearing the shirt, you were told you "you are sewing poverty to your life" My bank manager did not acccept that explanation :) The sum total of my English after I passed matric was "yes and no and let me go Kind Regards Magda ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4073 - Release Date: 12/10/11

Hello Everyone I found the discussions about the Anglo-Boer War very interesting. I did history at a very Afrikaans school. I learned more about the Napoleon Wars, Civil War in America and Louis the VX than wars in our own country. On 16th of December we use to attend church and lay a wreath at the little Voortrekker Monument and then went home to bake cookies etc for Christmas. Our domestic worker was listening very attentively to the story of Blood River on the radio. She then told us the story according to what her grand parents told them. Vast difference. My grandmother and children were in Langlaagte Concentration Camp. She told us a lot about the conditions there, the measles that killed a lot of children and the poor food they had to eat. She also repeated many stories told by a lady to the children in the camp. I regret that I never wrote them down. She had some colourful sayings directly translated from English. I only learned the correct sayings once I went to school- to my embarressment. My daughter was learning at school about "hostels" - a nice friendly place for miners to live in. Where they did Dancing and singing over the weekends. This was in the late 80's and she was watched the news about fighting at hostels and people gettting killed. she asked me if that is the same hostel she is learning about at school. In the exam she was asked for a discription of a hostel. She wrote down what she saw on TV and I was called in to explain what nonsense I am teaching my children. Two years later when my son learned about hostels he was told it is a place where miners live. Aus is a tiny place between Keetmanshoop and Luderitz with only a shop with ice cold cooldrinks. There are wild horses in that area. I do not know where they came from but was lucky to see them once. History will always be influenced by who is in charge. It is up to us to educate and inform. May you be blessed over the Festive Season. Magda Badenhorst-Begeman Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] concentration camps/ WW1 POWs > Lynn There was a POW camp for German troops captured in and around the > then > German South West Africa 1915. It was at Aus on the Keetmanshoop/Luderitz > railway. I have a list of some of them. Many died in the 1918 flu. I got > this small booklet from Germany and later found it is available in > Namibia. > Patricia Frykberg > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Lyn Oakes" <lynne.oakes@virgin.net> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:55 PM > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] concentration camps/ WW1 POWs > >> I have been following the thread on the Boer War concentration camps. >> Like >> Pat, I enjoy learning history from real, "on the ground", stories to get >> a >> better idea of how people lived aside from official history. >> >> Are there any such records available (on line, hopefully) of First World >> War >> POW camps in South Africa? My German grandfather, arrested in what was >> Southern Rhodesia, spent the war in a pow camp in Pietermaritzburg. >> Grandpa >> is a major brickwall in my research and as I am retiring shortly I am >> looking for anything to help knock a few chinks into his family. >> >> Season's greetings from a rapidly chilling UK >> >> Lynette >> Surrey >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4074 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4073 - Release Date: 12/10/11 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4073 - Release Date: 12/10/11

"Johan Dorey-Venter" wrote : > Derek, > > You said: "The fact > remains, that while it was a tragedy, it has tarnished relations > between English and Afrikaans speakers since 1902 and is still a > contentious subject and will continue to be so as long as there is > still one Afrikaans molecule and one English molecule left in SA." > > It is not about being being Afrikaans or English, or even about the > colour of our skin. > > It is all about being unforgiving and intolerant. As long as we can > not forgive one another for what our ancestors did to each other, > there will never be peace in this world. > > Enough said. Let me get off my soapbox before someone kicks it out > from underneath me. > > Johan. I couldn't agree more. History is history and, while we should be aware of our pasts, we should not be ruled by them today or in the future. How many of us can truly claim that not one of our ancestors ever did something unpleasant, even shocking, to someone else ? John B Leic., Eng

I have photographs of the many dead horses...its terrible...my Father-in-law took his back to New Zealand but then he was a lucky one!! Jean -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tombi Peck" <tombipeck@talktalk.net> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:01 PM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the > fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from > Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! > There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. > Best wishes, > Tombi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > > >> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and >> I >> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of >> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse >> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and >> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to >> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been >> frantic >> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions >> Bulawayo >> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking >> and >> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary >> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living >> eventually >> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of >> folk >> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer >> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in >> WW1 >> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on >> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those >> letters too and through them I know something about your history. >> >> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went >> to >> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist >> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very >> sad. >> >> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has >> anything to help me >> >> Merry Christmas everyone >> Jean in Auckland >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> >> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM >> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >> >>> Tombi wrote: >>> >>>> Keith, >>>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >>> >>> Tombi, >>> >>> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >>> left >>> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >>> >>> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >>> time. >>> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >>> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >>> Century >>> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >>> and >>> the >>> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not >>> history, >>> it >>> was in a class called Geography. >>> >>> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >>> first >>> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >>> what >>> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >>> in >>> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >>> genealogy, >>> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I certainly did not expect to see so much reaction to my simple request for information about deaths at the concentration camps. I simply want the facts. They do not seem to be so readily available as so much information is from the more knowledgeable people on these lists. I have been so lucky in the past with an ask-and-you-will-receive. Some good references for me to get hold of. And a lot of reading. I have read much about Emily Hobhouse. Thanks all. Pat Frykberg : Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] List of concentration camps. SA War. >> >>Pat, >> >>A couple of people were irritated by my post. Nonetheless, I suggest > you look >>for biographies online for: >> >>Frederich Sleigh ROBERTS >> >>Horatio Herbert KITCHENER >> >>Emily HOBHOUSE >> >>You can judge for yourself.

Have you heard of the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? He was a man who had been a hero in earlier years in the Eastern Cape leading his troops from the Prince Alfred Guard in the notorious K Wars. I have read that he was instrumental in setting up a Rocket system to send lines to stricken ships during storms off Port Elizabeth. He is recorded as receiving a commendation for sending supplies to the survivors of Rorkes Drift. Then during The Anglo Boer war he was appointed as a Camp Commander at Bethulie where he was obviously unsuitable for the job. He had no knowledge or experience in handling civilians, their dietary requirements and establishing a sanitation system. Fortunately the Brits fired him and installed a new camp Supervisor who rectified the situation within weeks. His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation. -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pat Frykberg Sent: 12 December 2011 10:35 AM To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/ WW1 POWs/ Zambia post ABW Andrew funny how these things link up. I include the extract from your message that caught my interest. My father in law served with the CMR 1899-1902 and BSAF after that, was in the then Northern Rhodesia as a trader from Kasempa and Kanshansi. His two elder children were born 1911 and 1913 at the Kalene Hill Mission run by Dr Fisher and family. Wilhelm Frykberg owned land in the Mwinilunga area too. There was quite a large colony of Swedes up there at the time. Do you have much info of that time? Photos? I do. Patricia Frykberg Andrew Roger wrote..... > My grandmother, Josephine Maria HAARHOFF, was a nurse with the > neutral German Ambulance in the Boer War, and treated men from both > sides; later, she was a medical missionary in the Chinsali District > of what is now Zambia, where she met her husband, Robert Donald > MacMINN, who was working for the Church of Scotland and founded Lubwa > Mission. their only child was my mother, born in > 1911. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4675 - Release Date: 12/11/11