All, As I have done in many years past, I am pleased to offer genealogy advice and lookups over the holiday season. Here are some of my newest sources: Voortrekkerstamouers 1835-1845 by Jan C. Visagie. 2nd Edition. This is a truly outstanding work. My admiration for Prof. Visagie has no bounds. British Settlers in Natal 1824- 1857 by Shelagh O'Byrne Spencer. 7 volumes, A - Guy. Acutts in Africa by Yvonne Miller. I have a second copy of this book, in very good condition, for sale. Rudman Register and related families. Erasmus, Pote, Kirch van Lingen Stamregister Die Familie Bruwer, Fayers Marie Williams Overberg Origins. The English-Speaking Swellendam Families. Edmund H. Burrows. The Murray Family Registry 1794 - 1977. Caroline Murray. Van Riga tot Drakenstein, die Verhaal van Eduart Christiaan Haumann en sy Nasate, Riel Hauman Geslagsregister Coertse(n), Prof. Dr. PJ Coertze Heatlies in South Africa, Charles Hugo Heatlie Rabie - Rabe, Grebe, Rabe and Rabie Die Neethlings in Suid-Afrika, EM Neethling 1820 Settler James Mundell and his Descendants, Hilda Mary Corrin Die Familie Krige, JD Krige Kalm Maar Koppig, Die Familie BOJE en Aanverwante Families, JG (John) Boje. Let me know. Please be as specific as you can. Best wishes, Keith

Dear Keith   Thank you for offering Lookups   I am interested in the Rudman Family   My search is Charles Henry RUDMAN (I have no dates for DOB, family says Ladybrand, OFS and I presume he died +/- 1940 in Transvaal) he married Anne Mildred ALLWRIGHT and had 3 children. After her death he married a second time. Any info on him would be appreciated.   His sister Sarah Ann RUDMAN married Mildred's brother Aubrey James ALLWRIGHT   Thank you for your effort and time Darryl Allwright ________________________________ From: Keith Meintjes <umfundi@usa.net> To: SA List <SOUTH-AFRICA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:22 AM Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Keith's Holiday Lookups All, As I have done in many years past, I am pleased to offer genealogy advice and lookups over the holiday season.  Here are some of my newest sources: Voortrekkerstamouers 1835-1845 by Jan C. Visagie. 2nd Edition.  This is a truly outstanding work.  My admiration for Prof. Visagie has no bounds. British Settlers in Natal 1824- 1857 by Shelagh O'Byrne Spencer.  7 volumes, A - Guy. Acutts in Africa by Yvonne Miller.  I have a second copy of this book, in very good condition, for sale. Rudman Register and related families.  Erasmus, Pote, Kirch van Lingen Stamregister Die Familie Bruwer, Fayers Marie Williams Overberg Origins.  The English-Speaking Swellendam Families.  Edmund H. Burrows. The Murray Family Registry 1794 - 1977. Caroline Murray. Van Riga tot Drakenstein, die Verhaal van Eduart Christiaan Haumann en sy Nasate, Riel Hauman Geslagsregister Coertse(n), Prof. Dr. PJ Coertze Heatlies in South Africa, Charles Hugo Heatlie Rabie - Rabe, Grebe, Rabe and Rabie Die Neethlings in Suid-Afrika, EM Neethling  1820 Settler James Mundell and his Descendants, Hilda Mary Corrin Die Familie Krige, JD Krige Kalm Maar Koppig, Die Familie BOJE en Aanverwante Families, JG (John) Boje. Let me know.  Please be as specific as you can. Best wishes, Keith ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Trying again - Iwould really appreciate a volunteer re RUSSELL. Anyone free after Christmas holidays!? regards, Althea Warby (nee Sumner) > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: RUSSELL (A Warby) > 2. Latest list of names cited in 'Cornish Pioneers in South > Africa' (Nicola Jenkin) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:51:22 +0200 > From: "A Warby" <bishopmt@iafrica.com> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] RUSSELL > To: <SOUTH-AFRICA-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <8F8A2581C64A4CDD8730B20F3110A590@acer7af5adfc22> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I am looking for someone to please do a look-up at the Cape Town Archives > for the Death Notice of > Constant RUSSELL Volume No: 6/9/688 Ref: 999 - 1912. I believe her > husband was a John RUSSELL but could not find him on Naairs. If possible > I would appreciate this D/N as well. > > Thanks in advance. > > By the way the "Ma Russell" mentioned in Kobus Farrell's email was my > teacher at Newcastle High and yes, she was merciless when we gave a wrong > answer!! > > > Althea Warby >

Hi All Obituary of William Comber BURGESS William Comber BURGESS landed as a child in Natal in March, 1855, and could claim a far-reaching Methodist ancestry, his great-grandfather having been associatedwith the Weslweys in their apostolic labours. As a result of the ever-memorable first visit to South Africa of the late Bishop TAYLER, Mr. BURGESS was converted to God at the early age of 12 years. In 1880 he was received on full plan as a Local Preacher in the Pietermaritzburg Circuit, and in 1883 he was engaged by the Einburg Circuit as a Lay Agent. The following year he was accepted by the Conference as a Probationer for our Ministry and for three years did valued work in Kimberley Circuit. After spending three years in Namaqualand he was re -appointed to the Diamond Fields, where he laboured most successfully for a period of eight years, and the memory of his fervent preaching, untiring devotion, and practical sympathy with the poor and needy is still cherised by many. During the Anglo-Boer War he was Acting Chaplain to the 3 rd Divinson of the Imperial Forces. On the battle-field, on the march, and in bivouac he proved himself to be the friend and helper of all, and was able to influence for lasting good many officers and men, and won for him two royal decorations. The hardships and privations did much to undermine his health and necessitated his becoming a supernumeracy for a year.   After a visit to England he laboured in various circuits and then proceeded to Rhodesia. with the object of doing pioneer work in the remotest parts of that vast territory. His hopes, however, of being permitted to carry on an extensive itinerant mission among the natives and scattered Europeans of this wide region were not to be fulfilled, for on March 13, 1909, at a lonely farm-house near Chipongwe in Lusaka's country, North West Rhodesia, he died of fever, at the age of 54 and in the 25th year of his ministry. During his brief illness he was tended with Christian care by kindly hospitable Dutch settlers.   Mr. BURGESS had considerable natural gifts for the work of the ministry, and in the prime of his strength, before body and mind had grown weary, he deeply moved many people by his powerful evangilistic appeals. In his denunciation of evil he was most fearless, in the presence of suffering and sorrow he was gentle as a little child. As a pastor he was tireless and deeply sympathetic, his affectionate nature causing him to enter readily into the joys and sorrows of others. He was generous to a fault, often giving to others beyond the dictates of prudence, and never regretting what he had done. The memory of his life will long live in grateful hearts.   From: Wesleyan Methodist Minutes 1909 page 8-9   Transcribed by   Darryl Allwright darryl.allwright@yahoo.com

Hi list, Is there anyone on the list that lives in or near Edanvale that can help me find an old friend (off list) Please! It's the only Xmas present I can think of getting my mom Regards Lynn

Hi Iain, thank you so much for the encouragement! In the new year, I'm going to start cold-calling. Actually, someone in the area has emailed me off-list and offered to help with that (so thrilled for the offer of help!!). I have indeed googled a name + area for this cousin and nothing comes up, except for an individual with the same name who I'm quite certain is not my cousin. I have also tried the facebook route for both my cousin and his daughter but haven't been successful. In other branches of my tree I have had a LOT of success with these methods but the bricks keep falling on me this time. Hopefully the one relative I mentioned in a post just previous will come through this time. If not, I guess I might have a large phone bill next month! lol Thank you again, everyone, for the ideas and encouragement. Best wishes, ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 5:20 AM, Iain Wilson <email.iainwilson@gmail.com>wrote: > Hi Elle > > I managed to get the phone numbers of 8 people with the same name as the > person I was searching for and set about calling then 1 by 1 from the UK. I > struck gold on my second call although the young lad who answered thought I > had lost all of my marbles (I have no doubt he was searching around the > room for the hidden candid camera). > > An alternative is searching Facebook if you have a facebook account. Again > I struck lucky there > > I have also googled many a person with an area and had some measure of > success. > > Regards > > Iain > > On 13 December 2011 09:51, <denise.genealogyresearch@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Elle give the number a try even if you think it doesn't fit - I had luck > > once and landed up with a load of info - skeletons and all haha > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> > > Sender: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:51:05 > > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > > Reply-To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > > > Elle, > > > > Try these: > > > > R Crawley > > Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng > > 0116093769 > > > > J K Crawley > > Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng > > 0114521648 > > > > http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za > > > > Keith > > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > > Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST > > From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> > > To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > > > Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any > > ideas... > > > > I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South > Africa. > > I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in > > person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married > > next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins > > (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including > that > > side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I > try > > to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting > > family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle > at > > this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. > > > > I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, > > out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away > > relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some > specific > > reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked > on > > the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. > > > > Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I > > found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. > > > > His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I > > know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is > about > > 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a > > sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these > > ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of > > them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have > been > > told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not > sure > > what he does for a living. > > > > Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. > > Happy Holidays! > > ~LDC > > elle.d.see@gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > Warmest Regards > > Iain > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks Denise - I think I will start trying that route after the holidays. I have talked to one of my relatives, again, and she said, again, that she will get me my cousin's details so I'm going to give her a little bit longer - perhaps until after Christmas - to get back to me and then maybe we do start calling every Crawley in the area! lol Thank you so much for the tip! ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 4:51 AM, <denise.genealogyresearch@gmail.com> wrote: > Elle give the number a try even if you think it doesn't fit - I had luck > once and landed up with a load of info - skeletons and all haha > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> > Sender: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:51:05 > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > Elle, > > Try these: > > R Crawley > Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng > 0116093769 > > J K Crawley > Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng > 0114521648 > > http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za > > Keith > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST > From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> > To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any > ideas... > > I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. > I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in > person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married > next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins > (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that > side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try > to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting > family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at > this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. > > I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, > out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away > relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific > reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on > the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. > > Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I > found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. > > His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I > know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about > 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a > sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these > ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of > them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been > told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure > what he does for a living. > > Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. > Happy Holidays! > ~LDC > elle.d.see@gmail.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Lists The M headstones are now available http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=1829049 Regards Carol BENEKE nee STEWART Port Elizabeth, South Africa. 083 482 1482 ________________________ Researching: STEWART, STONE, LUKE, BENEKE, BENECKE, VON BENECKE and related families.

On 13 Dec 2011, at 12:27 AM, John Deare wrote: > My whole interest in Genealogy was sparked by seeing Deare Street > in Port > Elizabeth while on a business trip in the 70's. There was a whole > family > there and a Company called Deare & Deitz. > However, my grandfather changed the spelling of his name when he was > arrested as a vagrant after jumping ship in Cape Town at age 13. So > our > original surname spelling was Dear. There are other skeletons and > skebengas > to be found with a little digging. :) This interested me because there is a Dear family in Melbourne -- no relation of mine, but I worked with one of them many years ago. But I have also learned over the years not to be too precious about spellings of names, because the further back you go the more variable they become. You only have to look at all the spellings of Shakespeare's name! people pretty well spelled as they spoke, or from a limited education, and without regard to the etymology of words. My own grandfather, who was rather ill-educated and like many such had strong opinions on things he knew little about; he came of a family called McMINN, but insisted on spelling his own name MacMINN, which then became my mother's maiden name, and in the fullness of time my own second name. But all my Scottish cousins on that side of the family spell it McMinn as before. So I don't exclude possible links to my own surname just because they omit the D or add an S or both -- such names could belong to the same family. There are about 30 Dears in the Private volume of the Melbourne Phone Book, and no Deares -- but who knows how they spelled their names in earlier generations? Andrew Rodger rodgera@audioio.com

Hi Elle I managed to get the phone numbers of 8 people with the same name as the person I was searching for and set about calling then 1 by 1 from the UK. I struck gold on my second call although the young lad who answered thought I had lost all of my marbles (I have no doubt he was searching around the room for the hidden candid camera). An alternative is searching Facebook if you have a facebook account. Again I struck lucky there I have also googled many a person with an area and had some measure of success. Regards Iain On 13 December 2011 09:51, <denise.genealogyresearch@gmail.com> wrote: > Elle give the number a try even if you think it doesn't fit - I had luck > once and landed up with a load of info - skeletons and all haha > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> > Sender: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:51:05 > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > Elle, > > Try these: > > R Crawley > Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng > 0116093769 > > J K Crawley > Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng > 0114521648 > > http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za > > Keith > > > ------ Original Message ------ > Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST > From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> > To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address > > Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any > ideas... > > I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. > I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in > person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married > next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins > (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that > side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try > to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting > family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at > this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. > > I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, > out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away > relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific > reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on > the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. > > Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I > found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. > > His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I > know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about > 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a > sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these > ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of > them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been > told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure > what he does for a living. > > Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. > Happy Holidays! > ~LDC > elle.d.see@gmail.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Warmest Regards Iain

Elle give the number a try even if you think it doesn't fit - I had luck once and landed up with a load of info - skeletons and all haha Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> Sender: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:51:05 To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address Elle, Try these: R Crawley Victoriasq 9 Edenglen , edenvale , East Rand , Gauteng 0116093769 J K Crawley Emerald Estate 22 Greenstone Dr , East Rand , Gauteng 0114521648 http://phonebook.yellowpages.co.za Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:53 PM EST From: Elle See <elle.d.see@gmail.com> To: SOUTH-AFRICA@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Locating Cousin's Current Address Hello everyone, I'm in a bit of a pickle and wondering if anyone has any ideas... I live in Canada. My dad's entire side of the family lives in South Africa. I have some contact with that family via email. I haven't seen anyone in person for 20 years, prior to my dad's passing. Now, I'm getting married next year and would like to mail an invitation to one of my first cousins (I know travel will be next to impossible but it's my way of including that side of my family); however, I am only bashing into brick walls when I try to get this one cousin's mailing address out of family members. Getting family tree information has been even less successful but I would settle at this point for just SOME contact with this one cousin. I don't know if it is just because we are so far apart and "out of sight, out of mind" and that real life is more important than some far-away relative asking for a response to an email... or if there is some specific reason why no one will send me his phone number or address. I have asked on the verge of being annoying. I have googled like crazy with no success. Is there some way to look up present-day residents that I am missing? I found a "whitepages" website but he doesn't seem to be listed. His name is Paul Crawley. I don't know his middle name, unfortunately. I know he lives in the Johannesburg area, perhaps near Edenvale. He is about 41 years old and I do have a birth month and day. He has a daughter, a sister (Debbie) and his mother (Ramona) is still living. Although these ladies would be the easiest source of the information I seek, neither of them answers emails anymore. I do know both of their addresses. I have been told he is not on the internet but he does have a cell phone. I am not sure what he does for a living. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. Happy Holidays! ~LDC elle.d.see@gmail.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My apologies to the administrators but just this once ? Please Was anyone or does anyone know of the 1946/7/8/9 syllabus for History at Wits? Prof Marais, Mrs Raikes, and Arthur Keppel-Jones were the staff then. Please reply off list as this is not a genealogy question as such though it does come into my family history. patfryk@clear.net.nz Many thanks Patricia Frykberg

You are discussing peoples lives and living conditions not a box of rotting apples. There is NEVER any excuse for mans inhumanity to man. One has got to stand for what is right and not place the blame on others. One man can change the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about 'SORRY'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lynette from OZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Johan" <morgenthal@amobia.co.za> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:09 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/Bethulie > Hi John > Interesting about the Major, but perhaps you are a bit harsh on him. > Perhaps you should go to the Norval Family website where quite a bit is > recalled about the Bethulie (and Norvals Pont) concentration camp. > > http://www.norval-family.co.za/index.php/tt?showall=&limitstart= > > It seems that the Major was thrown into the deep end, and history did not > judge him kindly, although it must count against him that in contrast the > Norvals Pont camp was looked upon as a "model establisment". Firstly, so > it > seems to me, he was not an administrator to speak of (like, I suppose many > of the camp authorities). Secondly his staff was too small and > incompetent; > Thirdly his superiors seem to have been incompetent as well; Fourthly he > was > swamped by a human tidal wave that he could not accommodate with the > infrastructure at his disposal; Fithly, he was constantly without > sufficient > provisions and medical staff and medicines. No wonder the man virtually > gave up and let things go from bad to worse so that almost 2000 of 5000 > inmates died over a 13 month period of hunger, diseases and exposure to > atrocious weather conditions. > Regards > Johan Morgenthal > Stellenbosch > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Deare" <dearej@mweb.co.za> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:26 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/ WW1 POWs/ Zambia post ABW > > >> Have you heard of the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? >> He was a man who had been a hero in earlier years in the Eastern Cape >> leading his troops from the Prince Alfred Guard in the notorious K Wars. >> I have read that he was instrumental in setting up a Rocket system to >> send >> lines to stricken ships during storms off Port Elizabeth. He is recorded >> as >> receiving a commendation for sending supplies to the survivors of Rorkes >> Drift. Then during The Anglo Boer war he was appointed as a Camp >> Commander >> at Bethulie where he was obviously unsuitable for the job. He had no >> knowledge or experience in handling civilians, their dietary requirements >> and establishing a sanitation system. Fortunately the Brits fired him and >> installed a new camp Supervisor who rectified the situation within weeks. >> His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation. >> > [cut] > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One would ask why - you cannot change history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lynette from OZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Colin Möhr" <mohr@lantic.net> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:15 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > Janee, > One part of my extended family has cut off all communication with me, > cause > I found out that their great garndfather married a coloured woman! > Colin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Johan Dorey-Venter" <doreyventer@gmail.com> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? > > >> John, >> >> You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and >> skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of >> a firing squad. >> >> All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. >> >> Johan. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

SORRY! John -----Original Message----- From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kevin and Lynette Sent: 12 December 2011 11:57 PM To: Johan; south-africa@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/Bethulie You are discussing peoples lives and living conditions not a box of rotting apples. There is NEVER any excuse for mans inhumanity to man. One has got to stand for what is right and not place the blame on others. One man can change the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about 'SORRY'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lynette from OZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Johan" <morgenthal@amobia.co.za> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:09 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/Bethulie > Hi John > Interesting about the Major, but perhaps you are a bit harsh on him. > Perhaps you should go to the Norval Family website where quite a bit is > recalled about the Bethulie (and Norvals Pont) concentration camp. > > http://www.norval-family.co.za/index.php/tt?showall=&limitstart= > > It seems that the Major was thrown into the deep end, and history did not > judge him kindly, although it must count against him that in contrast the > Norvals Pont camp was looked upon as a "model establisment". Firstly, so > it > seems to me, he was not an administrator to speak of (like, I suppose many > of the camp authorities). Secondly his staff was too small and > incompetent; > Thirdly his superiors seem to have been incompetent as well; Fourthly he > was > swamped by a human tidal wave that he could not accommodate with the > infrastructure at his disposal; Fithly, he was constantly without > sufficient > provisions and medical staff and medicines. No wonder the man virtually > gave up and let things go from bad to worse so that almost 2000 of 5000 > inmates died over a 13 month period of hunger, diseases and exposure to > atrocious weather conditions. > Regards > Johan Morgenthal > Stellenbosch > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Deare" <dearej@mweb.co.za> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:26 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] camps/ WW1 POWs/ Zambia post ABW > > >> Have you heard of the 'Bastard of Bethulie' ? >> He was a man who had been a hero in earlier years in the Eastern Cape >> leading his troops from the Prince Alfred Guard in the notorious K Wars. >> I have read that he was instrumental in setting up a Rocket system to >> send >> lines to stricken ships during storms off Port Elizabeth. He is recorded >> as >> receiving a commendation for sending supplies to the survivors of Rorkes >> Drift. Then during The Anglo Boer war he was appointed as a Camp >> Commander >> at Bethulie where he was obviously unsuitable for the job. He had no >> knowledge or experience in handling civilians, their dietary requirements >> and establishing a sanitation system. Fortunately the Brits fired him and >> installed a new camp Supervisor who rectified the situation within weeks. >> His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation. >> > [cut] > > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. > SPAMfighter has removed 57 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > The Professional version does not have this message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4676 - Release Date: 12/12/11

John, You're telling me! If I had to drag some of those "skeletons and skebengas" out of the closet my family will surely drag me in front of a firing squad. All part of what makes genealogy so interesting. Johan.

I grew up with the Horse Memorial. In about the 1960s it was moved from Rink Street - Park Drive to the start of Cape Road where it stands today. I think the memorial is to the horses lost in WW1. Lynette from OZ -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tombi Peck" <tombipeck@talktalk.net> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:01 AM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the > fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from > Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! > There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. > Best wishes, > Tombi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > > >> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and >> I >> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of >> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse >> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and >> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to >> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been >> frantic >> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions >> Bulawayo >> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking >> and >> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary >> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living >> eventually >> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of >> folk >> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer >> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in >> WW1 >> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on >> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those >> letters too and through them I know something about your history. >> >> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went >> to >> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist >> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very >> sad. >> >> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has >> anything to help me >> >> Merry Christmas everyone >> Jean in Auckland >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> >> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM >> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >> >>> Tombi wrote: >>> >>>> Keith, >>>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >>> >>> Tombi, >>> >>> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >>> left >>> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >>> >>> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >>> time. >>> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >>> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >>> Century >>> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >>> and >>> the >>> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not >>> history, >>> it >>> was in a class called Geography. >>> >>> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >>> first >>> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >>> what >>> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >>> in >>> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >>> genealogy, >>> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

And I ought to confess that on one very wild night I and several of us accepted a dare to climb up and sit in the saddle of that Horse is Port Elizabeth. !! It is a very tender memorial, a huge bronze and a soldier with his helmet full of water kneeling at the horse's head to give it water. Patricia Frykberg. -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Deare" <dearej@mweb.co.za> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:13 PM To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > As far as I know there are two horse memorials; One in Port > Elizabeth...professionally produced with a cast statue of a horse. I am > sure > if you Googled Port Elizabeth history it would appear there. The other I > have seen was produced and erected at Weston Agricultural College near > Mooi > River and opened in the past few years. Weston College was the site of a > re-mount centre where horses were collected from the area, trained and > shod. > John D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:south-africa-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tombi Peck > Sent: 12 December 2011 02:01 AM > To: south-africa@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > > One of the saddest things (apart from all the people being killed) was the > fact that the British got through 500,000 horses many of which came from > Australia, New Zealand and Argentina!! > There is now a memorial somewhere in South AFrica to this dreadful waste. > Best wishes, > Tombi > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jean Tuckey" <ronjeantuc@clear.net.nz> > To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then > > >> Despite me getting all uppity earlier on this is proving fascinating and >> I >> shall look up those biographies and have a good read. I know little of >> south african history; my father in law left New Zealand with a horse >> contingent to fight in the Boer War and his diary is most interesting and >> informative. He didn't write of the fighting, remember he was writing to >> his Mum and by the time the letters got to her she would have been >> frantic >> with worry about it all...they are utterly charming and he mentions >> Bulawayo >> (where we lived eventually) and so on on his ride from Beira to Mafeking >> and >> beyond. His brother became a Policeman in that era in S.A. and his diary >> too is really good reading chasing horse thieves etc and living >> eventually >> in Botswana as it is now. I have a photograph album of sketches of >> folk >> during that period very clever but not signed, and some photos of "Boer >> families" but no names...then he wrote one on his Kalahari campaign in >> WW1 >> as by that time he had fallen in love with S.A. and settled in Sydney on >> Vaal he rode through the desert to S.W.A - once again I have typed those >> letters too and through them I know something about your history. >> >> I was educated in India so only knew about Indian history. Then we went >> to >> Rhodesia now Zimbabwe and children there these days only have terrorist >> victory stuff...every country seems prejudiced from one angle only very >> sad. >> >> Now I am off to see if the comprehensive Auckland History Library has >> anything to help me >> >> Merry Christmas everyone >> Jean in Auckland >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Keith Meintjes" <umfundi@usa.net> >> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 11:44 AM >> To: <south-africa@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] History as taught then >> >>> Tombi wrote: >>> >>>> Keith, >>>> You were very lucky! I did history to matric but being at an English >>>> Medium school in the Transvaal although ... >>> >>> Tombi, >>> >>> I said I wish I had the textbooks, because then I could see what they >>> left >>> out. I finished High School in the Transvaal in 1968. >>> >>> It seemed to me that South African history ended about van der Stel's >>> time. >>> We got a dose of indoctrination in classes called Social Studies and one >>> called Race Studies, but they were not history. There was no 20th >>> Century >>> history from anywhere. I learned a lot about Metternich and Bismarck, >>> and >>> the >>> Industrial Revolution. British and European colonialism was not >>> history, >>> it >>> was in a class called Geography. >>> >>> Which is too bad. 20th Century South African history, particularly the >>> first >>> half, is fascinating. The rest also is. I am much more interested in >>> what >>> some call "social history", the experiences of common people, than I am >>> in >>> accounts of the exploits of generals and politicians. I suppose >>> genealogy, >>> with its emphasis on the lives of individuals, makes you that way. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4674 - Release Date: 12/11/11 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOUTH-AFRICA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1415 / Virus Database: 2102/4075 - Release Date: 12/11/11 >

Andrew funny how these things link up. I include the extract from your message that caught my interest. My father in law served with the CMR 1899-1902 and BSAF after that, was in the then Northern Rhodesia as a trader from Kasempa and Kanshansi. His two elder children were born 1911 and 1913 at the Kalene Hill Mission run by Dr Fisher and family. Wilhelm Frykberg owned land in the Mwinilunga area too. There was quite a large colony of Swedes up there at the time. Do you have much info of that time? Photos? I do. Patricia Frykberg Andrew Roger wrote..... > My grandmother, Josephine Maria HAARHOFF, was a nurse with the > neutral German Ambulance in the Boer War, and treated men from both > sides; later, she was a medical missionary in the Chinsali District > of what is now Zambia, where she met her husband, Robert Donald > MacMINN, who was working for the Church of Scotland and founded Lubwa > Mission. their only child was my mother, born in > 1911.

Deare John, "His name? - Major Russell Deare......No relation." Maybe you have just not yet found the link? <very big tongue-in-cheek> Us genealogists all have a few missing links. And maybe, a few missing "varkies" too. I know I have. Johan.