Hi What is your grandmothers name ? I have some photographs that my mother (She was in the WAAF) took of one of her colleagues wedding in Cairo about 1942. Ron Barnard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sigrid de Wit" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 12:24 PM Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Oscar Denis Mathews > Dear all, > > I'm trying to trace descendants or relatives of one Oscar Denis Mathews. I > don't know much about him other than that he was briefly married to my > grandmother during WW2 - in Cairo no less. He intrigues me because less > than > a year later they got divorced and she married my grandfather. I was > wondering who he was, what he did in Cairo (what rank/occupation he had in > the war) and perhaps even why they got divorced so quickly. > > He must've been born around 1920 (give or take a few years, my gran was > born > in 1922 and they were married in 1942, so there are limits as to his age). > I > believe he was South African because when I googled him, aside from the > guesstimates my father put into his family tree site, out came some > (though > no longer accessible) records from Ancestry24 and from those I gather that > he died in SA in 1995. The same year as my grandmother, coincidentally. > > Is there anyone in this list that had a (grand-) father or (great-) uncle > called Oscar Denis Mathews? > > Thanks in advance! > > Sigrid de Wit. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3629/6820 - Release Date: 11/08/13 >

Not so really old fashioned! When I left South Africa in 1953 (and yes I guess you were not even a twinkle in anyone's eye then) a neighbour's son helping the maid got his arm in the mangle . What a mess! Pat Frykberg -------------------------------------------------- From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:31 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Cape Frontier Times April - June 1844 > Mangle: An old-fashioned machine used to squeeze water out of wet clothes, > probably through rollers. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3222/6321 - Release Date: 11/08/13 >

I remember mangles,my grandmother had one,a big contraption with wooden rollers.Even the first washers ,before twin-tubs had a little one on them but now run by electric. So not so old-fashioned!!! Cate UK On 9 November 2013 20:50, Pat Frykberg <[email protected]> wrote: > Not so really old fashioned! When I left South Africa in 1953 (and yes I > guess you were not even a twinkle in anyone's eye then) a neighbour's son > helping the maid got his arm in the mangle . What a mess! > Pat Frykberg > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:31 AM > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Cape Frontier Times April - June 1844 > > > Mangle: An old-fashioned machine used to squeeze water out of wet > clothes, > > probably through rollers. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected]eb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3222/6321 - Release Date: 11/08/13 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello, Rod and others who may be interested. I would assume that "mangling" simply meant feeding wet, freshly washed clothes etc through a hand-operated mangle, though it usually makes up just one part of a laundress' or washerwoman's occupation. Perhaps Mrs Elliott worked as part of a team - with a daughter perhaps - and took the items from the other woman as they were passed across from the tub or copper after washing. Perhaps there was even another woman to carry them to the line after they were mangled... but that idea seems to fail if no one witnessed Mrs Elliott's death. It could be that whoever noted that she seemed well on the previous evening was working with her, and went away leaving a pile of clean wet clothes still to be mangled. Intriguing case! Phoebe

Mangle: An old-fashioned machine used to squeeze water out of wet clothes, probably through rollers.

Maybe she caught her extremities in the mangle? :) John -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes Sent: 09 November 2013 12:16 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Cape Frontier Times April - June 1844 On 9 Nov 2013 at 9:36, [email protected] wrote: > Good Morning All, > > Can any lister please let me know more about this lady's occupation?"Sudden > Death We have to record a melancholy case of sudden death that took place in > Graham’s Town on Sunday last. The name of the deceased was Mrs. ELLIOTT, a > woman who got her living by mangling, and who, it appears, was quite well on > the Saturday evening prior to the day of her death. As she did not make her > appearance as usual on the Sunday, some of her neighbours got admission > through the window into the cottage she occupied, and found her lying dead > upon the floor. She is supposed, from the appearances presented by the body, > to have died of apoplexy." Drying washing? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: [email protected] Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3629/6819 - Release Date: 11/08/13

On 9 Nov 2013 at 9:36, [email protected] wrote: > Good Morning All, > > Can any lister please let me know more about this lady's occupation?"Sudden > Death We have to record a melancholy case of sudden death that took place in > Graham’s Town on Sunday last. The name of the deceased was Mrs. ELLIOTT, a > woman who got her living by mangling, and who, it appears, was quite well on > the Saturday evening prior to the day of her death. As she did not make her > appearance as usual on the Sunday, some of her neighbours got admission > through the window into the cottage she occupied, and found her lying dead > upon the floor. She is supposed, from the appearances presented by the body, > to have died of apoplexy." Drying washing? -- Steve Hayes E-mail: [email protected] Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

Dear all, I'm trying to trace descendants or relatives of one Oscar Denis Mathews. I don't know much about him other than that he was briefly married to my grandmother during WW2 - in Cairo no less. He intrigues me because less than a year later they got divorced and she married my grandfather. I was wondering who he was, what he did in Cairo (what rank/occupation he had in the war) and perhaps even why they got divorced so quickly. He must've been born around 1920 (give or take a few years, my gran was born in 1922 and they were married in 1942, so there are limits as to his age). I believe he was South African because when I googled him, aside from the guesstimates my father put into his family tree site, out came some (though no longer accessible) records from Ancestry24 and from those I gather that he died in SA in 1995. The same year as my grandmother, coincidentally. Is there anyone in this list that had a (grand-) father or (great-) uncle called Oscar Denis Mathews? Thanks in advance! Sigrid de Wit.

Good Morning All, Can any lister please let me know more about this lady's occupation?"Sudden Death We have to record a melancholy case of sudden death that took place in Graham’s Town on Sunday last. The name of the deceased was Mrs. ELLIOTT, a woman who got her living by mangling, and who, it appears, was quite well on the Saturday evening prior to the day of her death. As she did not make her appearance as usual on the Sunday, some of her neighbours got admission through the window into the cottage she occupied, and found her lying dead upon the floor. She is supposed, from the appearances presented by the body, to have died of apoplexy." Regards, Rod g

Hi Andrew, Thank you for your post. It is most interesting to read and to keep on file. Thank you once again, Glynis -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Laquita Belinfante Sent: 09 November 2013 08:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bankrupt/Insolvent Andrew Thank you for a most interesting and informative post. Lucky The term "bankruptcy" is not nowadays used in South African Law: the correct term is "insolvency". However, the English term was more used by English settlers, and newspaper writers, especially in the Eastern Cape and Natal, tended to be relatively new immigrants. The insolvent might be alive or dead -- if alive, a person who was failing to pay his debts might be made formally insolvent by means of a petition in much the same way as such a person might be declared bankrupt in the UK, but if a deceased estate turned out to be insolvent this might only come to light when the nominated executor came to examine the assets and liabilities of the estate. I used to do estates for the old Standard Bank Trustee Branch in Cape Town many years ago and we avoided insolvent estates like the plague: they were a lot more bother to administer, involving creditors' meeting and the like, with no certainty of even getting a reasonable fee and no prospect at all of making a profit on the deal, so we generally refused to sign the acceptance of trust document and turned the case away. The customers concerned were, of course, of no value at all to the Bank, and there was provision for certain practitioners to do a cut-price job just to get rid of the problem. There was definitely a money-based class-system at work -- we were not so PC in those days. But in the early days, and especially before the passage of the Administration of Estates Act No. 24 of 1913, all sorts of informal methods of dealing with insolvent estates would have been employed; and even after, if the value of the estate was below the threshold set by the Act, which was one hundred pounds. People with such small estates were also more likely to die intestate, and often there was no formal notice of death at all -- people tended to keep free of the toils of the legal system if they could. The term "bankrupt" is of interesting origin: in the Middle Ages a money-changer who couldn't meet his obligations would be driven out of the market and his bench ("Bank" in German and Dutch -- this word found its way also into the Romance languages as "Banco" in Spanish and Portuguese, and "Banca" in Italian) would be broken up into little bits. ("Rupt" from the same Latin root as "rupture".) Money changers were the first bankers; they used to lend their stock-in- trade so that it could pay for its keep, but of course loans could go wrong, leaving the money-changer in deep trouble. It was the combination of foreign exchange, deposit-taking and landing that made up the modern bank and led to legislative control to regulate this important sector of the economy so it would not fail -- not always successfully! Andrew Rodger [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Andrew Thank you for a most interesting and informative post. Lucky The term "bankruptcy" is not nowadays used in South African Law: the correct term is "insolvency". However, the English term was more used by English settlers, and newspaper writers, especially in the Eastern Cape and Natal, tended to be relatively new immigrants. The insolvent might be alive or dead -- if alive, a person who was failing to pay his debts might be made formally insolvent by means of a petition in much the same way as such a person might be declared bankrupt in the UK, but if a deceased estate turned out to be insolvent this might only come to light when the nominated executor came to examine the assets and liabilities of the estate. I used to do estates for the old Standard Bank Trustee Branch in Cape Town many years ago and we avoided insolvent estates like the plague: they were a lot more bother to administer, involving creditors' meeting and the like, with no certainty of even getting a reasonable fee and no prospect at all of making a profit on the deal, so we generally refused to sign the acceptance of trust document and turned the case away. The customers concerned were, of course, of no value at all to the Bank, and there was provision for certain practitioners to do a cut-price job just to get rid of the problem. There was definitely a money-based class-system at work -- we were not so PC in those days. But in the early days, and especially before the passage of the Administration of Estates Act No. 24 of 1913, all sorts of informal methods of dealing with insolvent estates would have been employed; and even after, if the value of the estate was below the threshold set by the Act, which was one hundred pounds. People with such small estates were also more likely to die intestate, and often there was no formal notice of death at all -- people tended to keep free of the toils of the legal system if they could. The term "bankrupt" is of interesting origin: in the Middle Ages a money-changer who couldn't meet his obligations would be driven out of the market and his bench ("Bank" in German and Dutch -- this word found its way also into the Romance languages as "Banco" in Spanish and Portuguese, and "Banca" in Italian) would be broken up into little bits. ("Rupt" from the same Latin root as "rupture".) Money changers were the first bankers; they used to lend their stock-in- trade so that it could pay for its keep, but of course loans could go wrong, leaving the money-changer in deep trouble. It was the combination of foreign exchange, deposit-taking and landing that made up the modern bank and led to legislative control to regulate this important sector of the economy so it would not fail -- not always successfully! Andrew Rodger [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 8 Nov 2013 at 15:15, Sue Mackay wrote: > Deceased possessed a most retentive memory and strong > powers of mind, which he had cultivated by a perusal of the best Dutch > Authors. He had thus acquired a large fund of intelligence, and was > acquainted with both the facts and chronology of History, to an extent not > often met with in those possessed of scholastic attainments. But did he leave a memoir to share with others his prodigious memory before it was erased? Learn from this, and write your memoirs now! -- Steve Hayes E-mail: [email protected] Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727 Fax: 086-548-2525

On 8 Nov 2013, at 6:57 AM, Keith Meintjes wrote: > I do not think that bankruptcy was a prerequisite. I have seen > "insolvent" > documents where it appears some property was seized to satisfy a > debt without > a complete bankruptcy. > > Keith The term "bankruptcy" is not nowadays used in South African Law: the correct term is "insolvency". However, the English term was more used by English settlers, and newspaper writers, especially in the Eastern Cape and Natal, tended to be relatively new immigrants. The insolvent might be alive or dead -- if alive, a person who was failing to pay his debts might be made formally insolvent by means of a petition in much the same way as such a person might be declared bankrupt in the UK, but if a deceased estate turned out to be insolvent this might only come to light when the nominated executor came to examine the assets and liabilities of the estate. I used to do estates for the old Standard Bank Trustee Branch in Cape Town many years ago and we avoided insolvent estates like the plague: they were a lot more bother to administer, involving creditors' meeting and the like, with no certainty of even getting a reasonable fee and no prospect at all of making a profit on the deal, so we generally refused to sign the acceptance of trust document and turned the case away. The customers concerned were, of course, of no value at all to the Bank, and there was provision for certain practitioners to do a cut-price job just to get rid of the problem. There was definitely a money-based class-system at work -- we were not so PC in those days. But in the early days, and especially before the passage of the Administration of Estates Act No. 24 of 1913, all sorts of informal methods of dealing with insolvent estates would have been employed; and even after, if the value of the estate was below the threshold set by the Act, which was one hundred pounds. People with such small estates were also more likely to die intestate, and often there was no formal notice of death at all -- people tended to keep free of the toils of the legal system if they could. The term "bankrupt" is of interesting origin: in the Middle Ages a money-changer who couldn't meet his obligations would be driven out of the market and his bench ("Bank" in German and Dutch -- this word found its way also into the Romance languages as "Banco" in Spanish and Portuguese, and "Banca" in Italian) would be broken up into little bits. ("Rupt" from the same Latin root as "rupture".) Money changers were the first bankers; they used to lend their stock-in- trade so that it could pay for its keep, but of course loans could go wrong, leaving the money-changer in deep trouble. It was the combination of foreign exchange, deposit-taking and landing that made up the modern bank and led to legislative control to regulate this important sector of the economy so it would not fail -- not always successfully! Andrew Rodger [email protected]

Transcribed from CO53/18 at the national Archives, Kew, London Thursday 4 April 1844 At Private Sale The Sheep Breeders wishing to purchase any of the Ewes from the old established Merino Flocks on the Burnt Kraal Farm, may select any number out of the Ewe Flock, now lambing down, at £1 each; and from the imported Australian Merino Ewes, at £3 each; also young pure-bred Rams, 2 years old, at £5; and half-bred ditto at £2 each. The same will be exchanged and bartered for Horses, Oxen, Cows, and all description of Stock, and Produce from the Farmers, - and a liberal Credit allowed upon purchase by note of hand. Application to be made to Mr. CORBETT, at the Burnt Kraal Farm, and the proprietor at Prospect House, Graham’s Town. Chas. GRIFFITH 27th March 1844. Thursday 18 April 1844 MARRIED at St.George’s Church, Graham’s Town, on the 16th inst, by the Rev J Heavyside AM, Samuel WELSFORD Jun to Sarah Ann EARLE, eldest daughter of Mr. W.J. EARLE of this town. Thursday 25 April 1844 DIED at Graham’s Town on Monday 22nd April, William Tice, the youngest son of the Rev J. LOCKE, aged eight months. Thursday 2 May 1844 Alexander HYDE of New-street, Graham’s Town has the honor to inform the Inhabitants of the District of Albany that he has taken out a license to deal in Wines and Spirits by Wholesale and Retail; and trusts by strict attention to the wants of his Customers, to merit their Support. NB Good accommodation for Travellers Excellent Ale, Beer and Cider A. HYDE Sudden Death We have to record a melancholy case of sudden death that took place in Graham’s Town on Sunday last. The name of the deceased was Mrs. ELLIOTT, a woman who got her living by mangling, and who, it appears, was quite well on the Saturday evening prior to the day of her death. As she did not make her appearance as usual on the Sunday, some of her neighbours got admission through the window into the cottage she occupied, and found her lying dead upon the floor. She is supposed, from the appearances presented by the body, to have died of apoplexy. Thursday 16 May 1844 DIED at Graham’s Town on Tuesday evening, the 14th inst, Augusta Elizabeth Ann Fair, only daughter of Mrs, WELLMAN, aged 12 years and 5 months. DIED at Fort England, this morning, 16th inst, Mr. John JOLLEY, aged 49 years. Deceased was one of the Original Emigrants of 1820, since which period he has been distinguished for his industry, enterprising perseverance, and general probity. – he has left a widow to deplore the loss of an affectionate husband – and a family of nine children, that of a tender parent. DIED on the 15 April last, at his residence De Staden’s River, district of Uitenhage, after a lingering illness of five months, Ignatius Stephanus FERREIRA Esq, aged 54 years, deeply regretted by his family and numerous circle of friends, who were deservedly attached to him. Deceased possessed a most retentive memory and strong powers of mind, which he had cultivated by a perusal of the best Dutch Authors. He had thus acquired a large fund of intelligence, and was acquainted with both the facts and chronology of History, to an extent not often met with in those possessed of scholastic attainments. He was distinguished by a fine flow of animal spirits, and for a spirit of generosity and hospitality almost unbounded. This was displayed not only to his own countrymen, but also to strangers (and especially to those in want of assistance) as the English residents in that neighbourhood can abundantly testify. He has left a widow and eight children to deplore his loss. De Staden’s River, May 7 1844. Thursday 23 May 1844 DIED at Carel’s Rust, in the District of Albany, on Monday the 13th May 1844, Carel Frederick POHL Sen. Esq, in the 77th year of his age, deeply lamented by his Widow and numerous Family. Thursday 30 May 1844 BIRTH at Fort England on Tusday 19th inst, Mrs. John JOLLEY of a Son. Notice of Removal Dr. W.G. ATHERSTONE to the Premises adjoining the Stores of Mr. M.B. SHAW, High-street, opposite to Eastern Districts Auction Mart. Thursday 6 June 1844 Notice to Creditors and Debtors In the Insolvent Estate of Joseph COOPER, of Tarka Post, in the District of Cradock, Trader The Undersigned having been duly appointed Trustees in the above Estate, hereby give notice to all persons claiming to be Creditors, to send in their claims to the third Undersigned within Six Weeks from this date, - and that those indebted to the Estate are required to liquidate their accounts within the same period. James TEMLETT Mark NORDEN Benj. SIMPSON Dissolution of Partnership Notice is hereby given that the Partnership hitherto existing between the undersigned, under the Firm “SPARKS & Co”, as Sheep Farmers, has this day by mutual consent been Dissolved; and that all Debts due to, or by, the late Firm, will be adjusted by the Second undersigned. Henry SPARKS q.q. Wm. SIMPSON Graham’s Town, 30th May 1844. Thursday 20 June 1844 In the Intestate Estate of the late John JARDINE Notice All persons indebted to this Estate are requested to take notice that the undersigned has been empowered by the Executors to receive all Debts due to the above Estate; and that all accounts not settled within one month from this notice will be sued for. B. SIMPSON Bathurst-street Mr. A. KIDWELL, of this Town, met his death last week under painful and melancholy circumstances. He had been engaged for some time past in conducting Mr. FORD’s butchering establishment in Bathurst-street, and upon his entering the cattle kraal for the purpose of securing a refractory cow, the animal ran at him and gored him severely in the thigh. The unfortunate man lingered for several days, when mortification of the limb ensued and he died last Thursday, on the day on which he was to have been married.

Is it still possible to visit the Archives in Cape Town and take digital photos of NAAIRS documents? A few years ago when I was first researching my BELL kin in South Africa several Listers were enormously kind and sent me digital photos of Death Notices, etc, which enabled me to piece together the trees of several branches of my family who emigrated to South Africa and stayed or moved on elsewhere. Every now and then I have a rummage at the NAAIRS web site, and gradually I have built up a list of documents I'd like to see, some day . . . . but living as a pensioner in Europe I somehow don't think I'll make it to Cape Town again, despite all the fun we had last time, in 1997. Cheers Don

What a splendid list this is. Thanks to all for erudite comments on my query about E R Bell - it seems most probable that he was alive but seriously broke in 1844! Don

I have a personal entry in NAAIRS with "Insolvent" in the heading for my divorce case. Joy

I do not think that bankruptcy was a prerequisite. I have seen "insolvent" documents where it appears some property was seized to satisfy a debt without a complete bankruptcy. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 05:59:29 AM EST From: Richard Ball <[email protected]> To: RootsWeb Only <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Extracts from the Cape Frontier Times January - March 1844, re E. R. Bell Hello Don Montague, Thursday, November 7, 2013, 9:55:35 AM, you wrote: RO> Sue Mackay's transcription included: RO> Notice to Creditors RO> Graham's Town, 14th March 1844 RO> In the Insolvent Estate of E.R. BELL, of Fort Beaufort, in the RO> District of Albany, Shopkeeper Insolvent estates are the financial accounts of bankruptcy procedings - of living people. Bankruptcies, judging from the NAIRS online index, were very common in the 19th Century Cape. All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Don Montague, Thursday, November 7, 2013, 9:55:35 AM, you wrote: RO> Sue Mackay's transcription included: RO> Notice to Creditors RO> Graham's Town, 14th March 1844 RO> In the Insolvent Estate of E.R. BELL, of Fort Beaufort, in the RO> District of Albany, Shopkeeper Insolvent estates are the financial accounts of bankruptcy procedings - of living people. Bankruptcies, judging from the NAIRS online index, were very common in the 19th Century Cape. All the best, Richard -- Richard Ball, Norfolk, England http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk [email protected]

Sue Mackay's transcription included: Notice to Creditors Graham's Town, 14th March 1844 In the Insolvent Estate of E.R. BELL, of Fort Beaufort, in the District of Albany, Shopkeeper As far as I know my 2nd Great-Great-Uncle Edward Russell Bell was alive and living in or near Graham's Town in 1844 (he died on 6th August 1869). So, does this notice simply indicate that the poor chap was bankrupt in 1844, or that there was another E. R. Bell infesting those parts in 1844? Don Montague whose mother was a Bell