Yes, In the DRC church there were traveling ministers who went to outlying locations, and even reports from Veld-Kornets that were recorded in the main register out of order by a month or so. Still, such contemporaneous records are presumed as primary records by those who confer status on genealogy sources. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 08:14:56 PM EST From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] Meaning: Contemporaneously: During the same period of time or possibly a little later.... -----Original Message----- From: Keith Meintjes Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] In those days there were at least two registers, one kept contemporaneously and one or more handwritten copies forwarded to the diocese, etc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bart, I think you have a hybrid here. The signatures are likely original. When I was married in Hermanus in the 1980s, my wife and I were required to sign multiple registers. I think one was the official church register, the other was a "duplicate" register such as you have shown me. To compound the issue, we were also given mini certificates to paste into our Books of Life. So, two registers were kept, one original and one "copy". Whether the original went to the church or the government, I do not know. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 07:48:39 PM EST From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] Hello: Thanks Keith: I have just sent you the specific DOR off-list for viewing. It is confusing to question this DOR the first time round. It looks almost like an original marriage entry in some register, EVEN with SIGNATURES "In the presence of ..." section. But in the whole central area of the paper, it looks like it is written by the same hand and style of writing. Maybe even the rest of the document ?. Q1: So did the "Clerk" reproduce the signatures as well ?. i.e. [This marriage was solemnised between us...] and [In the presence of ...] ???. Is the "Clerk" imitating all the signatures ???. Q2: If these are handwritten duplicates, then it is no wonder that there WILL be errors !!!. If the ["REAL ORIGINAL HAS BAD HANDWRITING"] then a person's age at marriage for one single item could be wrong !!!. Even if ONLY that one single item was faded and re-written incorrectly... [The real original has bad handwriting and is written in different hands depending on the officiating minister. The copies are in one hand, usually with more legible script.]. Surely.... this must be point of concern when trying to trace exact dates, people, persons, and trees, etc. ?. So these images online here, are "Clerk" transcripts from an original entry ?. With forced errors as such. One truly needs to VIEW THE ORIGINAL document to ascertain what the dates should or could in fact be ?. The best guess given throughout the DOR for the reading of faded handwriting.... The original of the item I am viewing has some chance to be say FADED over his age of marriage. One would only know this if one viewed the original record !!!. B.S. ==================================== -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] Remember the job title, "clerk"?. In those days there were at least two registers, one kept contemporaneously and one or more handwritten copies forwarded to the diocese, etc. In the DRC registers I have found in some cases three copies. The real original has bad handwriting and is written in different hands depending on the officiating minister. The copies are in one hand, usually with more legible script. Keith. ------ Original Message ------ Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] Hello: For a Natal [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER (Marriage Abt.1920)]: Sorry for my ignorance, what is the difference between a Marriage Register and the [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER (Marriage Abt.1920)] ?. The DOR has all the “In the Presence of ....” signatures etc., but also form printed with “Examined with the Original Register by me and found to be correct” .... signed by whoever. How does this work ?. The printed title of the form is [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER]. B.S. ================================ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected].com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Remember the job title, "clerk"? In those days there were at least two registers, one kept contemporaneously and one or more handwritten copies forwarded to the diocese, etc. In the DRC registers I have found in some cases three copies. The real original has bad handwriting and is written in different hands depending on the officiating minister. The copies are in one hand, usually with more legible script. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Fri, 07 Feb 2014 04:10:18 PM EST From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> To: "RW RSA" <[email protected]> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER [!!!] Hello: For a Natal [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER (Marriage Abt.1920)]: Sorry for my ignorance, what is the difference between a Marriage Register and the [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER (Marriage Abt.1920)] ?. The DOR has all the “In the Presence of ....” signatures etc., but also form printed with “Examined with the Original Register by me and found to be correct” .... signed by whoever. How does this work ?. The printed title of the form is [DUPLICATE ORIGINAL REGISTER]. B.S. ================================ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you. I have two "problems" both of whom we have found graves for in Braamfontein. One has a very smart granite gravestone- and suggests that it also cost a smart sum in those days. On the grave [1907] is inscribed "His end was peace- erected by his sorrowing wife". From that, it suggests that he was ill/had an accident? and his death was a release. However nothing on NAAIRS. [John KNIPE died Langlaagte 10th Nov 1907]. The other is another story, and probably fits into the "no notification" but still there is a grave in Braamfontein. The grave is unmarked by a gravestone, the remnants of the original gravestone scattered around. Since it was a woman, who had been in the country for less than two years, it is unlikely that she had anything of her own. [Ellen COAD died Aug1899]. We found this grave in a very roundabout way-her grand-daughter who died in 1911 was first buried in one grave, and then reburied with her granny. Hats off to the guys at Braamfontein! Bev -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Hayes Sent: 07 February 2014 05:33 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Death Notices. On 6 Feb 2014 at 14:55, Bev wrote: > Was there a law that all persons who died c 1900-1910 had to have a > death notice? - or was a burial record enough? Thank you- Bev Remember that in that period south Africa was four different countries, each with its own laws, and for the first couple of years there was a war on. But yes, most of them did have a law that the Master of the Supreme Court was to be notified of the death of any person, and of what property they had. In practice, however, unless they had significant property, their relatives did not bother to notify the Master. So most deaths were not so recorded, only those with significant property (who were mostly white). Theoretically a lot of rural black people ought to have been recorded, but they generally did not have bank accounts, and their wealth was mainly in cattle, which were simply divided up in the family according to custom. Some whites with little or no property were recorded, mainly because they were staying in hotels and boarding houses, and the people who ran them were aware of their duty to inform the master, even if they didn't know how much poroperty the deceased possessed. In cases of people who died in hotels and boarding houses you will often find two death notices, one filled in by the landlord, and another, more informative one filled up by a relative. I don't know of any law for recording burials, though some religious bodies kept a record of funerals. -- Keep well, Steve Hayes Blog: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/famhist1.htm E-mail: [email protected] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Wendy, You can order the estate file through EGGSA http://www.eggsa.org/sales/help_archive_docs.htm Linda On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Wendy Schonfeldt <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi > > Is it at all possible to get an exact death date for my Gran - I am in the > UK at the moment and not sure when I will be back in Johannesburg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *DEPOT TAB SOURCE MHG TYPE LEER SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 3648/63 PART 1 > DESCRIPTION METZ, HILDA MATILDA. STARTING 19630000 ENDING 19630000 REMARKS > PREDECEASED SPOUSE HUGO METZ. Kind regardsWendy* > ------------------------------- > All messages to the list must be sent in plain text. > ------------------------------- > When you reply to a message, please MAKE SURE that you DELETE the quoted > text, signature, and end material that is not pertinent to your reply. > ------------------------------- > When you reply to a message, please make sure that you Change the Subject > of the message as needed. If you are replying to a Digest, this is a MUST > DO. > ------------------------------- > For searching the list archives and other list information, please go to > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Immigration/SOUTH-AFRICA-IMMIGRANTS-BRITISH.html > ------------------------------- > To contact the TMG List Administrator, send a message to > [email protected] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On 6 Feb 2014 at 14:55, Bev wrote: > Was there a law that all persons who died c 1900-1910 had to have a death > notice? - or was a burial record enough? Thank you- Bev Remember that in that period south Africa was four different countries, each with its own laws, and for the first couple of years there was a war on. But yes, most of them did have a law that the Master of the Supreme Court was to be notified of the death of any person, and of what property they had. In practice, however, unless they had significant property, their relatives did not bother to notify the Master. So most deaths were not so recorded, only those with significant property (who were mostly white). Theoretically a lot of rural black people ought to have been recorded, but they generally did not have bank accounts, and their wealth was mainly in cattle, which were simply divided up in the family according to custom. Some whites with little or no property were recorded, mainly because they were staying in hotels and boarding houses, and the people who ran them were aware of their duty to inform the master, even if they didn't know how much poroperty the deceased possessed. In cases of people who died in hotels and boarding houses you will often find two death notices, one filled in by the landlord, and another, more informative one filled up by a relative. I don't know of any law for recording burials, though some religious bodies kept a record of funerals. -- Keep well, Steve Hayes Blog: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/famhist1.htm E-mail: [email protected]

Was there a law that all persons who died c 1900-1910 had to have a death notice? - or was a burial record enough? Thank you- Bev

The Death Notice requirement depends on the size of the estate. The Death Certificate records the intended place of intement. There is no official form for a burial. www.eggsa.org has a number of guides on ZA genealogy that provide further explanation. Keith ------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 06 Feb 2014 08:00:16 AM EST From: "Bev" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Death Notices. Was there a law that all persons who died c 1900-1910 had to have a death notice? - or was a burial record enough? Thank you- Bev ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the information, it makes more sense to me now. I found it interesting to see what this surname means: [PFINGSTEN] in German means Pentecost or White Sunday. In Dutch it means [Pinkster]. [Pfingsten=Pinkster]. BS. ======================================

Dear All I repeat what I said in my first email in order to clarify and I have elaborated to try to explain why I am sure that I have not mixed 2 trees! Christine Bolland died in 1877. Her husband Ernst F C Pfingsten remarried (Rebecca Vogel) and had a son from the 2nd marriage. Yes, in one document Ernst's third christian name is down as William, but that is I think an error in the Methodist/Wesleyan baptism register of 1882 - the son is called Ernst Frederick William, born 1 Nov 1881 and baptised 24 Jan 1882. In the register of 1887 when he and Rebecca baptise another son on 26 Oct called Ernst Arthur born May 5th 1887. his names (or initials) are correct. As they are as well in the baptism record of their daughter Bertha Evalina Elizabeth, born 21 Aug 1880 and baptised 26 Jan 1881. In answer to your other question - yes Christine is named Pfingsten on her burial record. Regards Selma On 5 February 2014 09:00, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Bolland/Holland (Selma Thomas) > 2. Re: Bolland/Holland (Bart Simon) > 3. Re: Bolland/Holland (Bart Simon) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 12:52:58 +0100 > From: Selma Thomas <[email protected]> > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: > < > [email protected]om> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear all, > > I am trying to find information about my g-g-grandmother. Any facts would > be very welcome! > I have looked through the passenger lists of German arrivals and English > arrivals of the period but have not found any information about her. There > is just the slightest chance that the surname might be Holland rather than > Bolland (looks like Bolland on the certificate but you never know!) > I have not been able to find a death notice for her on NAAIRS. Civil deaths > on Familysearch start after her death. > > *Christine Bolland* > > Born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, burial record she > was 50 at the time of her death) > Married on 18 Aug 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten > (who had arrived on 10 Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British > German Legion). > Died in Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. > Christine and Ernst moved to Uitenhage when he left the Army in 1860 and he > is described as a shopkeeper on his death notice. He married for a second > time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage. > > Christine and Ernst had, as far as I have been able to find, 5 daughters > Augusta Caroline Pfingsten (1857-1931) who married John Rutherford Smith > Johanna Sophia Christina Pfingsten (1859-1949) who married Frederick Edward > Thompson > Sarah Hermina Fredricka Christina Pfingsten (1860-1946) who married > Tunbridge Wells > Victoria Margaret Pfingsten (1862-1952) who married Hugh Brady > Emma Eliza Charlotte Pfingsten (1867-1938) who married William Peter > Gleeson > > Thanks > Selma > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 20:48:56 +0200 > From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > ["He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from > that second marriage"]: If I understand your post correctly, Christine > Bolland d:27 Nov 1877, is that correct ?. The son from [Ernst Frederick > Carl > Pfingsten]'s m2. to [Rebecca Fredricka] being [Ernest Arthur Pfingsten] was > b:05-05-1887. The son from the m2 is b:05-05-1887 before Christine Bolland > d:27 Nov 1877 !!!. So Christine could NOT have been m. to EFCP in 1887. > What > is Christine's surname on the "burial record", I assume it was PFINGSTEN ?. > B.S. > ================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Selma Thomas > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > > *Christine Bolland* born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, > burial record she was 50 at the time of her death) and married on 18 Aug > 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten (who had arrived on > 10 > Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British German Legion). Died in > Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. He married for a second time after Christine's > death and had a son from that second marriage. > ------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 21:41:17 +0200 > From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hello: I am not sure how you have your tree, but: > > Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten m. Christine Bolland >5dg's. > > Another separate person: > > Ernest Frederick William Pfsingsten m. Rebecca Friedricka Johanna Vogel > A > son: Ernest Arthur Pfingsten b:05-05-1887 [!!! !!! !!!] > > ***You have mixed two trees together. !!! > ===================================== > So far I feel BOLLAND is the first choice. > BOLLAND can derive from BOHLAND. > I suspect possible descendants of a brother maybe going into Durban after > 1900 ?. > > B.S. > ===================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Bart Simon > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 8:48 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > > ["He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from > that second marriage"]: If I understand your post correctly, Christine > Bolland d:27 Nov 1877, is that correct ?. The son from [Ernst Frederick > Carl > Pfingsten]'s m2. to [Rebecca Fredricka] being [Ernest Arthur Pfingsten] was > b:05-05-1887. The son from the m2 is b:05-05-1887 before Christine Bolland > d:27 Nov 1877 !!!. So Christine could NOT have been m. to EFCP in 1887. > What > is Christine's surname on the "burial record", I assume it was PFINGSTEN ?. > B.S. > ================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Selma Thomas > Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland > > *Christine Bolland* born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, > burial record she was 50 at the time of her death) and married on 18 Aug > 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten (who had arrived on > 10 > Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British German Legion). Died in > Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. He married for a second time after Christine's > death and had a son from that second marriage. > ------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the SOUTH-AFRICA list administrator, send an email to > [email protected] > > To post a message to the SOUTH-AFRICA mailing list, send an email to > [email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of SOUTH-AFRICA Digest, Vol 9, Issue 35 > ******************************************* >

Hello: I am not sure how you have your tree, but: Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten m. Christine Bolland >5dg's. Another separate person: Ernest Frederick William Pfsingsten m. Rebecca Friedricka Johanna Vogel > A son: Ernest Arthur Pfingsten b:05-05-1887 [!!! !!! !!!] ***You have mixed two trees together. !!! ===================================== So far I feel BOLLAND is the first choice. BOLLAND can derive from BOHLAND. I suspect possible descendants of a brother maybe going into Durban after 1900 ?. B.S. ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Bart Simon Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 8:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland ["He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage"]: If I understand your post correctly, Christine Bolland d:27 Nov 1877, is that correct ?. The son from [Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten]'s m2. to [Rebecca Fredricka] being [Ernest Arthur Pfingsten] was b:05-05-1887. The son from the m2 is b:05-05-1887 before Christine Bolland d:27 Nov 1877 !!!. So Christine could NOT have been m. to EFCP in 1887. What is Christine's surname on the "burial record", I assume it was PFINGSTEN ?. B.S. ================================== -----Original Message----- From: Selma Thomas Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland *Christine Bolland* born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, burial record she was 50 at the time of her death) and married on 18 Aug 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten (who had arrived on 10 Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British German Legion). Died in Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage. ------------------------------- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

["He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage"]: If I understand your post correctly, Christine Bolland d:27 Nov 1877, is that correct ?. The son from [Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten]'s m2. to [Rebecca Fredricka] being [Ernest Arthur Pfingsten] was b:05-05-1887. The son from the m2 is b:05-05-1887 before Christine Bolland d:27 Nov 1877 !!!. So Christine could NOT have been m. to EFCP in 1887. What is Christine's surname on the "burial record", I assume it was PFINGSTEN ?. B.S. ================================== -----Original Message----- From: Selma Thomas Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Bolland/Holland *Christine Bolland* born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, burial record she was 50 at the time of her death) and married on 18 Aug 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten (who had arrived on 10 Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British German Legion). Died in Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage. -------------------------------

Dear all, I am trying to find information about my g-g-grandmother. Any facts would be very welcome! I have looked through the passenger lists of German arrivals and English arrivals of the period but have not found any information about her. There is just the slightest chance that the surname might be Holland rather than Bolland (looks like Bolland on the certificate but you never know!) I have not been able to find a death notice for her on NAAIRS. Civil deaths on Familysearch start after her death. *Christine Bolland* Born 1827 (according to the St Katherine's, Uitenhage, burial record she was 50 at the time of her death) Married on 18 Aug 1857 in Stutterheim to Ernst Frederick Carl Pfingsten (who had arrived on 10 Feb 1857 in East London as a soldier of the British German Legion). Died in Uitenhage on 27 Nov 1877. Christine and Ernst moved to Uitenhage when he left the Army in 1860 and he is described as a shopkeeper on his death notice. He married for a second time after Christine's death and had a son from that second marriage. Christine and Ernst had, as far as I have been able to find, 5 daughters Augusta Caroline Pfingsten (1857-1931) who married John Rutherford Smith Johanna Sophia Christina Pfingsten (1859-1949) who married Frederick Edward Thompson Sarah Hermina Fredricka Christina Pfingsten (1860-1946) who married Tunbridge Wells Victoria Margaret Pfingsten (1862-1952) who married Hugh Brady Emma Eliza Charlotte Pfingsten (1867-1938) who married William Peter Gleeson Thanks Selma

Hello: I will continue to assist the researcher OFF-LIST further. B.S. "A man travels the world in search of what he needs and returns home to find it." - George Moore. -----Original Message-----

Try the West Witwatersrand branch of the Genealogical Society. John -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sigrid de Wit Sent: 03 February 2014 12:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Krugersdorp jail Dear all, Seeing so many messages about Krugersdorp of late, reminded me of my ancestors' history with the place and I was now hoping somebody might be able to tell me more or even have old photos of the day. My g-g-g-grandfather and his family lived in Krugersdorp around the Anglo-Boer war (they arrived just before and returned afterwards). He was a prison warden or something, in any case he worked in the prison business. His name was Frederick Phillips, his wife Elizabeth Jane Martha became a matron there too. Frederick started out as a prison employee when Krugersdorp was still a Boer town, even had himself naturalised, but somehow, after the war when things had changed, he returned to the same job. He may have made some interesting choices! Perhaps someone living in Krugersdorp knows more, either about my ancestor himself (big bonus points if you do!) or about the prisons there in general? Photos of the prison from the war period and/or information about Boers and Brits in the town around the time of the war is also much appreciated! Thanks heaps! Sigrid. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear all, Seeing so many messages about Krugersdorp of late, reminded me of my ancestors' history with the place and I was now hoping somebody might be able to tell me more or even have old photos of the day. My g-g-g-grandfather and his family lived in Krugersdorp around the Anglo-Boer war (they arrived just before and returned afterwards). He was a prison warden or something, in any case he worked in the prison business. His name was Frederick Phillips, his wife Elizabeth Jane Martha became a matron there too. Frederick started out as a prison employee when Krugersdorp was still a Boer town, even had himself naturalised, but somehow, after the war when things had changed, he returned to the same job. He may have made some interesting choices! Perhaps someone living in Krugersdorp knows more, either about my ancestor himself (big bonus points if you do!) or about the prisons there in general? Photos of the prison from the war period and/or information about Boers and Brits in the town around the time of the war is also much appreciated! Thanks heaps! Sigrid.

The Universal Electrical Directory (J.A. Berly's)., Volume 34: H. Alabaster, Gatehouse & Company,., 1915. Page 869: Findlay, A., electrician, Brakpan Mines, Brakpan. http://books.google.co.za/books?id=W4A3AQAAMAAJ&q=Findlay+electrician+Brakpan+Mines&dq=Findlay+electrician+Brakpan+Mines&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V43uUurZFcGShQfbvIGADw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA -----Original Message-----

Having just found the DC for [JSM] it clearly states: Died aged 83 years 5 months. [Means she is b:June-July 1876]. It does NOT state her parents. [For Father it shows: / ]. [It makes me wonder that Harold William Findlay did not know the names of his mother's parents !!!]. Last place of residence not far from the Brenthurst Cemetery. Lists 4 surviving children. [2 other children seem to be buried with her husband Andrew.]. States her husband is ANDREW FINDLAY d:1926 !!!. [This is clearly him in the Brenthurst Cemetery !!!]. *Birth + Nationality: Uitenhage + South Africa. *Place of Marriage: Uitenhage. ======================================== *This part of a DC is often incorrect. B.S. The most important item here is the given age at death !!!. *** It means she is b:June-July 1876 !!!. *** Marcella: What churches in or in the vicinity of Uitenhage have NOT been searched yet ?. I wonder if [JSM] was cremated, or which other cemeteries near Brenthurst one can go look ?. I would like to know which cemetery her son [Harold William Findlay] is buried in, it seems he died in Brakpan too. He was her heir. They could buried in the same cemetery ?. Also the possibility of an unmarked grave, so registers will have to be checked. We clearly have her names and d. date !!!. -----Original Message-----

Hello : NOTES: Sometimes, it can be very difficult to find what we are looking for.... Sometimes, the information in front of us needs to be re-thought out. I have only looked into this family for a very short period of time, 1-2 days. I need to draw some pictures and give some ideas and other knowledge. This post will need to be further researched. I am following the idea that the researchers of this might be in the right place as such, but there is ONE single question here around, that is: Who is JESSIE SCOTT MURIE [JSM], where was she born, and who are her parents ???. It has been assumed that she must be connected closely to the MURIE family of Uitenhage etc. So simply, this relationship has never been proved !!!. Neither can any record of her being b. in Uitenhage so far be found. Nor any ship list for the arrival of this family to RSA etc. It might be the case you are looking in even the wrong place and country ?. I will continue here on, to see if [JSM] can connect to the family you have assumed she might connect to (!!!). Is there even just ONE [JSM] that even comes near this family ?. Well.... Actually there is ONE I can see, but I clearly do not know if this is [JSM]. It would make better sense to me that [JSM] is NOT b. in RSA at all. Maybe, just maybe, she was b, back in Scotland ?. [JSM] b. date is assumed to be b:1876. It is probably before this date. I am setting it at [1868-1876] or so. Before I go on further, we need to get to the geography of an area just just above Glasgow City itself. Take time to learn this area. Firstly, [Lanarkshire], say in 1871, being also a census year (!!!), the county area and border of [Lanarkshire] went just above Glasgow City, being the furthest northern border of this county. Just fitting inside this border of [Lanarkshire] above Glasgow City itself, was a suburb(/area) (?) called [SPRINGBURN]. It is basically still there today and named as such. Or simply: Registration district here was [1871: SPRINGBURN]. But.... Another Registration district existed or came into being, named [ST ROLLOX] (!!!). This district existed (1875-1906) as registration district 644/06. It “seems” to me, maybe only, that this [ST ROLLOX] district then also encompassed the [SPRINGBURN] suburb/area, now being basically the same Registration district as such. It seems [ST ROLLOX] might have existed in 1874 ?. Both [ST ROLLOX] + [SPRINGBURN] would just be within the boundary of [LANARKSHIRE]. I will send some maps pictures off list. In the census records, there is a family in [SPRINGBURN] and [ST ROLLOX]. Due to such close proximity, there can be cause for further research. Currently, my quick tree shows this: ========================================= William Murie m. Helen Crosser Donald II Alexander Murie b:1842 m. Elizabeth Bryson II William Murie Jeanie Currie Murie Agnes Murie Helen Donald Murie Jessie Scott Murie [Assumed connection !!! ???] Elizabeth Bryson Murie Mary Crosser Murie Muriel Murie Mary Mercia Paxton Murie Alexander Rogers Bryson Murie [b:1884 Uitenhage] Other offspring ??? ========================================= Birth dates are calculated dates. The following is the family you trying to connect to back in Scotland: ========================================= 1871: Scotland Census County: Lanarkshire Registration District: SPRINGBURN [!!! !!! !!! !!! !!!] WILLIAM MURIE b:1803 Age 68 HELEN MURIE b:1812 Age 59 GEORGE MURIE b:1838 Age 33 ALEXANDER MURIE b:1843 Age 28 ELIZABETH MURIE b:1843 Age 28 ELIZABETH MURIE b:1868 Age 3 ELLEN MURIE b:1869 Age 2 JEANIE MURIE b:1871 Age 0 === That would be William Murie m. Helen Crosser Donald (?). Alexander Murie must be his son (?). [b:1842/3?]. Probably Alexander Murie and wife Elizabeth Bryson age 28yrs ?. ======================================= 1881: Scotland Census County: Lanarkshire Registration District: ST ROLLOX [!!! !!! !!! !!! !!!] HELLEN MURIE b:1820 Age 61 GEORGE MURIE b:1845 Age 36 DAVID MURIE b:1839 Age 42 WILLIAM MURIE b:1866 Age 15 JESSIE MURIE b:1868 Age 13 HELEN MURIE b:1870 Age 11 JAMES MURIE b:1872 Age 9 Here, very nearby, as children on a census record would go, only their first name would be given, is one JESSIE MURIE !!!. ======================================= One thing about family tree, if you connect into the wrong family, it stops right there, it never makes sense and does not work. I would for one, remove the assumption of [JSM] being the dg of AM+EB for the time being. It is not working so far. Andrew Findlay d:1926 aged 56yrs, b:Abt. 1869. I suspect this is [JSM]’s husband ?. http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2153105 [[[From the census in [ST ROLLOX] 1871: JESSIE MURIE b:1868 Age 13.]]]: She is about the same age.... If [Jessie Scott Murie] d:30-12-1959 in [Brakpan, Gauteng, South Africa], I would spend some time there.... Maybe drop this other MURIE family off, and start again. .B.S. ======================

Not one of mine; I found this an interesting viewpoint, Bart. I'd certainly take a long, hard look at this. Best wishes, Tombi Peck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Simon" <[email protected]> To: "RW RSA" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2014 1:13 AM Subject: [SOUTH-AFRICA] Jessie Scott Murie [!!!] > Hello : > > NOTES: Sometimes, it can be very difficult to find what we are looking > for.... Sometimes, the information in front of us needs to be re-thought > out. I have only looked into this family for a very short period of time, > 1-2 days. I need to draw some pictures and give some ideas and other > knowledge. This post will need to be further researched. I am following > the idea that the researchers of this might be in the right place as such, > but there is ONE single question here around, that is: Who is JESSIE SCOTT > MURIE [JSM], where was she born, and who are her parents ???. It has been > assumed that she must be connected closely to the MURIE family of > Uitenhage etc. So simply, this relationship has never been proved !!!. > Neither can any record of her being b. in Uitenhage so far be found. Nor > any ship list for the arrival of this family to RSA etc. > > It might be the case you are looking in even the wrong place and country > ?. I will continue here on, to see if [JSM] can connect to the family you > have assumed she might connect to (!!!). Is there even just ONE [JSM] that > even comes near this family ?. Well.... Actually there is ONE I can see, > but I clearly do not know if this is [JSM]. It would make better sense to > me that [JSM] is NOT b. in RSA at all. Maybe, just maybe, she was b, back > in Scotland ?. [JSM] b. date is assumed to be b:1876. It is probably > before this date. I am setting it at [1868-1876] or so. > > Before I go on further, we need to get to the geography of an area just > just above Glasgow City itself. Take time to learn this area. Firstly, > [Lanarkshire], say in 1871, being also a census year (!!!), the county > area and border of [Lanarkshire] went just above Glasgow City, being the > furthest northern border of this county. Just fitting inside this border > of [Lanarkshire] above Glasgow City itself, was a suburb(/area) (?) called > [SPRINGBURN]. It is basically still there today and named as such. Or > simply: Registration district here was [1871: SPRINGBURN]. > > But.... Another Registration district existed or came into being, named > [ST ROLLOX] (!!!). This district existed (1875-1906) as registration > district 644/06. It “seems” to me, maybe only, that this [ST ROLLOX] > district then also encompassed the [SPRINGBURN] suburb/area, now being > basically the same Registration district as such. It seems [ST ROLLOX] > might have existed in 1874 ?. Both [ST ROLLOX] + [SPRINGBURN] would just > be within the boundary of [LANARKSHIRE]. I will send some maps pictures > off list. > > In the census records, there is a family in [SPRINGBURN] and [ST ROLLOX]. > Due to such close proximity, there can be cause for further research. > Currently, my quick tree shows this: > ========================================= > William Murie m. Helen Crosser Donald > II > Alexander Murie b:1842 m. Elizabeth Bryson > II > William Murie > Jeanie Currie Murie > Agnes Murie > Helen Donald Murie > Jessie Scott Murie [Assumed connection !!! ???] > Elizabeth Bryson Murie > Mary Crosser Murie > Muriel Murie > Mary Mercia Paxton Murie > Alexander Rogers Bryson Murie [b:1884 Uitenhage] > Other offspring ??? > ========================================= > Birth dates are calculated dates. The following is the family you trying > to connect to back in Scotland: > ========================================= > 1871: Scotland Census > County: Lanarkshire > Registration District: SPRINGBURN [!!! !!! !!! !!! !!!] > > WILLIAM MURIE b:1803 Age 68 > HELEN MURIE b:1812 Age 59 > GEORGE MURIE b:1838 Age 33 > ALEXANDER MURIE b:1843 Age 28 > ELIZABETH MURIE b:1843 Age 28 > ELIZABETH MURIE b:1868 Age 3 > ELLEN MURIE b:1869 Age 2 > JEANIE MURIE b:1871 Age 0 > === > That would be William Murie m. Helen Crosser Donald (?). > Alexander Murie must be his son (?). [b:1842/3?]. > Probably Alexander Murie and wife Elizabeth Bryson age 28yrs ?. > ======================================= > 1881: Scotland Census > County: Lanarkshire > Registration District: ST ROLLOX [!!! !!! !!! !!! !!!] > > HELLEN MURIE b:1820 Age 61 > GEORGE MURIE b:1845 Age 36 > DAVID MURIE b:1839 Age 42 > WILLIAM MURIE b:1866 Age 15 > JESSIE MURIE b:1868 Age 13 > HELEN MURIE b:1870 Age 11 > JAMES MURIE b:1872 Age 9 > > Here, very nearby, as children on a census record would go, only their > first name would be given, is one JESSIE MURIE !!!. > ======================================= > One thing about family tree, if you connect into the wrong family, it > stops right there, it never makes sense and does not work. I would for > one, remove the assumption of [JSM] being the dg of AM+EB for the time > being. It is not working so far. Andrew Findlay d:1926 aged 56yrs, b:Abt. > 1869. I suspect this is [JSM]’s husband ?. > http://www.eggsa.org/library/main.php?g2_itemId=2153105 > > [[[From the census in [ST ROLLOX] 1871: JESSIE MURIE b:1868 Age 13.]]]: > She is about the same age.... > > If [Jessie Scott Murie] d:30-12-1959 in [Brakpan, Gauteng, South Africa], > I would spend some time there.... Maybe drop this other MURIE family off, > and start again. > > .B.S. > ====================== > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message