Caroline, Jeremy et al, Thinking about this further I came accross this site: http://www.warof1812.ca/family.htm which seems to suggest (at some time) that consent for marriage had to be sought from a senior officer and the precise regulation may have varied from regiment to regiment. Amongst other reasons, this article suggests that the number of soldiers marrying had often to be limited because of the financial burden that soldiers with accompanying wives placed on the regiment in terms of accommodation etc. It seems a plausible explanation. Another thought I had is that if a soldier had to produce proof that he had married, (to allow his wife to live in army barracks/quarters) what were the options in the past? Could a person apply to the original "marrying" church for a copy of some sort of certificate? How did the GRO (or whatever?) work way back then? Was it possible to apply to a government body to verify your marriage? Even assuming such routes were possible, would the average soldier know how to find this out or afford it? So the best alternative would be another marriage in a register office where presumeably a certificate could be taken away after the event. SOG-UK-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: SOG-UK-D Digest Volume 05 : Issue 98 Today's Topics: #1 Re: Two Weddings and a Puzzle ["Pickard - Hunimex" #2 Two Weddings and a Puzzle [MARTIN TOLLEY #3 Re: Two Weddings and a Puzzle [Caroline Lancaster #4 Two Weddings and a Puzzle [Mlc1@aol.com] #5 Re: [SoG] Two Weddings and a Puzzl [Ken Mycock #6 Two Weddings and a Puzzle [Jeremy Wilkes Administrivia: To unsubscribe from SOG-UK-D, send a message to SOG-UK-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but I advise that you just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. REMEMBER to cancel any automatic signature that your email software may generate by setting Signature to "None" if applicable. ______________________________Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:33:47 -0700 From: "Pickard - Hunimex" <pickard@hunimex.com> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Two Weddings and a Puzzle Hi Caroline, There may be several reasons - one of which may stem from the groom being in the army, hence perhaps was informed that the first marriage was not legal, and he wanted to make sure he was legally married and registered. The second I can think of, is that each marriage was in a different denomination church, one for the groom and one for the bride. The delay may be caused by his annual leave. I would check the church records if still available, and get full details directly from the register, rather than from the marriage certificate - Check the banns too. There may be notes in the margin etc. Happy Hunting Pickard Trepess Nagykanizsa, Hungary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caroline Lancaster" To: Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:52 PM Subject: Two Weddings and a Puzzle > Can anyone help please with ideas as to why a couple would have > undergone two marriage ceremonies 1 year and 9 months apart: > > Sep 1903 at Scotforth, Lancs - groom a bachelor of 29, a merchant of > Lancaster; bride a spinster of 22 of Ripley, Yorks. > > June 1905 at Southport, Lancs - groom a bachelor of 30, a merchant of > Southport; bride a spinster of 24 of Halifax, Yorks. > > The groom used a different surname for the second marriage although he > did not formerly announce that he wanted to be known by the new > surname until Feb 1906, when he put an entry in the Times 6 days after > the birth of their first child (whose birth was registered in March > 1906 in the old surname!) > > They are definitely the same couple (and family bible shows both > marriages) and their ages are correct, confirmed by birth certs. It's > thought that the groom may have been on leave from the army when he > married, but not known if this was for the first or the second time. > > Thoughts welcomed. > > Best regards > Caroline Lancaster > > ______________________________ ______________________________Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:57:32 +0100 (BST) From: MARTIN TOLLEY <martin.tolley1@btinternet.com> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Two Weddings and a Puzzle I too have a situation with two weddings for the same couple one in January 1876 and the second in June 1877. I also have a similar military connection with the groom being a gunner in the artillery and possibly on leave from his Hampshire base when he married first.The first marriage was the family affair in the bride's home district and the second a register office ceremony near the groom's barracks. (So not the case that the first marriage was anything like an impulsive or secret thing that was "normalised" in front of the family later. And there's no evidence that they "had" to get married in the first instance. My solution to the puzzle is that it may have been the case that men in the army couldn't marry without permission and that in order to bring his wife home to live in married quarters he had to go through another ceremony to produce a marriage certificate after he had been granted formal permission. This is only a guess, and perhaps some of the military experts o! n this list can enlighten us further. If we have any marriage experts reading this, I've always been intrigued by the legality of this situation. Which is the legal marriage - the first or the second? Does the second invalidate the first one or would the second marriage (presumeably involving false declarations of bachelorhood/spinsterdom) be illegal. Did my relatives commit a crime the second time around and could they have been prosecuted? I hope that's not the case. Of course it might just be that they loved each other so much and had such a good time on the first day that they decided to do it again (- and get a second set of wedding gifts?!) ______________________________Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:48:50 +0100 From: Caroline Lancaster <sussexfolk@gmail.com> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Two Weddings and a Puzzle Thank you for your thoughts, Pickard The marriages both took place in the (established) parish church by licence. Yes, a good idea to double check with the original church register. Just recently I've had an instance where the bride's father's forename was Richard on the GRO copy cert but William on the original church register. Kind regards Caroline On 14/06/05, Pickard - Hunimex wrote: > Hi Caroline, > > There may be several reasons - one of which may stem from the groom being in > the army, hence perhaps was informed that the first marriage was not legal, > and he wanted to make sure he was legally married and registered. > > The second I can think of, is that each marriage was in a different > denomination church, one for the groom and one for the bride. The delay may > be caused by his annual leave. > > I would check the church records if still available, and get full details > directly from the register, rather than from the marriage certificate - > Check the banns too. There may be notes in the margin etc. > > Happy Hunting > > Pickard Trepess > Nagykanizsa, Hungary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Caroline Lancaster" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:52 PM > Subject: Two Weddings and a Puzzle > > > Can anyone help please with ideas as to why a couple would have > > undergone two marriage ceremonies 1 year and 9 months apart: > > > > Sep 1903 at Scotforth, Lancs - groom a bachelor of 29, a merchant of > > Lancaster; bride a spinster of 22 of Ripley, Yorks. > > > > June 1905 at Southport, Lancs - groom a bachelor of 30, a merchant of > > Southport; bride a spinster of 24 of Halifax, Yorks. > > > > The groom used a different surname for the second marriage although he > > did not formerly announce that he wanted to be known by the new > > surname until Feb 1906, when he put an entry in the Times 6 days after > > the birth of their first child (whose birth was registered in March > > 1906 in the old surname!) > > > > They are definitely the same couple (and family bible shows both > > marriages) and their ages are correct, confirmed by birth certs. It's > > thought that the groom may have been on leave from the army when he > > married, but not known if this was for the first or the second time. > > > > Thoughts welcomed. > > > > Best regards > > Caroline Lancaster > > > > ______________________________ > > ______________________________Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 07:15:54 EDT From: Mlc1@aol.com To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Two Weddings and a Puzzle Hello Caroline, I wonder whether there were any regulations for Army personnel concerning marriage? My reason for saying this is that my parents in law went through two marriage ceremonies, first secretly, in 1933 in a Roman Catholic church, then again in 1937 in a registry office. My father in law worked for the Bank of Montreal in London and it was a condition of his employment that he did not marry before he reached the age of 25. He would have been 24 when their first marriage took place. Even my mother in law's parents were not aware of this marriage for some time. The second marriage certificate gives their condition as bachelor and spinster, and the marriage was about 6 months before their second child was born. They always celebrated the anniversary of their first marriage and regarded the second as a necessary formality. Just a thought, Regards Celia Cole ______________________________Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 12:50:03 +0100 From: Ken Mycock <ken.mycock@ukonline.co.uk> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SoG] Two Weddings and a Puzzle I would be very surprised if there weren't marriage regulations for Army personnel. I was in the Royal Navy when I got married in 1974 aged 21 and had to write to ask the Captain's permission, using a formal letter style: "Sir I have have the honour to request permission to be married ..." At that time, this was something of a formal remnant of days gone by, and permission was readily granted. I never heard of a case when it wasn't. Ken Mlc1@aol.com wrote: >Hello Caroline, > >I wonder whether there were any regulations for Army personnel concerning >marriage? > >My reason for saying this is that my parents in law went through two >marriage ceremonies, first secretly, in 1933 in a Roman Catholic church, then again >in 1937 in a registry office. My father in law worked for the Bank of >Montreal in London and it was a condition of his employment that he did not marry >before he reached the age of 25. He would have been 24 when their first >marriage took place. Even my mother in law's parents were not aware of this marriage >for some time. > >The second marriage certificate gives their condition as bachelor and >spinster, and the marriage was about 6 months before their second child was born. >They always celebrated the anniversary of their first marriage and regarded >the second as a necessary formality. > >Just a thought, >Regards >Celia Cole > > > > > > > > ______________________________Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:55:39 -0400 From: Jeremy Wilkes <JeremyWilkes@compuserve.com> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Two Weddings and a Puzzle This is a subject that crops up in various periodicals from time to time, two of them having mentioned an instance amongst my relations. When the phenomenon occurs, there is often a military connexion, and it has been suggested that there was an omission on the part of the soldier to get his C.O's permission for the earlier ceremony. I am not sure that anyone has found confirmation of this explanation, but no-one seems to have come up with a better one. My relations went through the first ceremony in a parish church, and the second at a register office. Jeremy Wilkes