In message of 23 Mar, John Addis-Smith <genl@addisgen.com> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:36:46 GMT, Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> > wrote: > > Anyhow the Plustek book scanner looks very interesting, though I > > suspect the sponsorship to The Society would need to be nearer > > £1,000 to provide the necessary PC with monitor and printer as well. > > The deployment of the scanner would be decided by the Librarian with > advice from the IT Working Party. Perhaps it could go where the photocopiers now are, thereby not taking any space. > > In the best case scenario no further equipment would need to be > purchased, as the scanner would be connected to an existing PC and > print through one of the several network connected printers already > present. A networked printer would indeed be usable save for the little problem of the odd person who might print off several sheets of paper, collect them and then walk out without paying (deliberately or otherwise but this has happened). The current solution is, I understand, to put the printer in a place accessible only by volunteers but this requires a person to spend time sorting out who own which piece of paper and handing them out to the right persons. The other problem of using an existing PC is that it then becomes unusable for its current purpose. My view is that a totally self-contained unit on open access would be better. It should have no connection to the network to avoid virus costs. And that unit would need a coin in the slot machine similar to the current photocopiers that are on open access. This would obviously increase the costs. > In the worst case scenario one would buy all the equipment, but this > need only cost: > - PC Dell Dimension 2400 £199, which includes 17" CRT monitor and > CD-ROM drive (plus £29 for a CD-RW drive) While the Society _must_ pursue its own purchasing policy which might very well not be Dell, let's continue the pricing on the assumption that Dell it is. Weird. I've just had a look at the Dell site and it is very clear that a Dimension 2400 costs £510 and upwards. Further a system with 17 inch TFT monitor (preferable for heat and electricity reasons) plus 3 years service plus black and white laser printer is £752 including VAT and shipping. There are cheaper Dell machines, though, but none at £199. > - Brother HL 5139 laser printer £120 (from Simply Computers, now taken > over by Misco) Nil, use Dell printer, above. (It is better to buy as many components as possible from the one supplier.) > So the total cost would be £462 (scanner £143, PC £199, printer £120) > which excludes VAT, since the Society would get that back. There > would be a few more pounds for delivery of these items. Subtract 17.5% from the Dell price gives £640. Plus the scanner gives £783. Plus installation and customisation (so it will only run the scanner software), say £100. Sub-total £883. Add in a coin-in-the-slot box. No idea of the price. Let's guess at £250. Sub-total £1033. I have not included anything for consumables (electricity, ink, paper) and assume these would be covered by the coins in the slot. Perhaps the charge per copy could be reduced from the current 20p a sheet if a donor was paying for the machine so I have no idea what the charge per copy should be. Now the problem that all businesses have to bear in mind - and SoG should use business practices for its costings. Depreciation. All machinery depreciates and the product proposal must include depreciation. By and large the recommendation is that desktop PCs are replaced every three years. This means that at the end of each year, £340 must be put aside to pay for replacement. What should the donor do about depreciation? If the Society accepts the gift, then it is increasing its costs by the annual depreciation. The Society might take the view that it cannot afford to increase its costs so reluctantly has to refuse the gift. So the donor has to add in something for the depreciation, perhaps he (she) has to commit to paying the depreciation at least for the next three years? So, over three years, the donor would have shelled out double the above sub-total, at £2066. And, over six years this is £3099 (though the prices of things will undoubtedly have changed at the end of the first depreciation period). > So the estimate of around £1,000 is rather misleading and might put > off a potential donor of the scanner. Well I really wish the project could be costed in the way that you recommend, but I just cannot see those figures on Dell's site. Are you sure that this price is what was there for a Dell Dimension 2400? Oh, and I nearly forgot, two of these bits of kit might be needed, one on each of the middle and top floors. Double all the donor's costs! Sounds like more than one donor would need to be found. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org

I do not have the time to waste replying in too much detail to Tim P-L's long winded reply, with most of which I totally disagree! Visions of putting up straw men come to mind . . . I shall make the following points: 1. Tim assumes that the new scanner plus PC and printer would be used as a replacement for one or more photocopiers ("could go where the photocopiers now are"). I deliberately made no such assumption. Apart from the fact that this is only an A4 scanner and the photocopiers take up to A3 size originals, the concept of the PC illiterate (as many library users still are) let loose on such a setup as he suggests would be a recipe for disaster!. No, a more realistic use of such a scanner would be for staff and volunteer use, perhaps scanning books for CD-ROM or online access. My best case scenario could then apply. 2. Despite having been on the Society's Executive Committee, and so presumably aware of the limited financial resources under which the Society currently operates, Tim suggests a Rolls Royce solution . . . - 3 year PC replacement cycles are both unrealistic and unnecessary for the simple uses to which most of the computers are used at the Society. The age profile of the PCs in use will bear this out - of course staff and volunteer time is taken in trying to monitor use of networked laser printers, but that is what already happens to 3 such printers in the lower library (for Internet, CD-ROMs and film scanner). Coin slot operated printers are simply far too expensive a proposition at present - it would really put off sponsors if it was suggested that they should also provide for the eventual replacement costs of everything they sponsor. Why no go the whole hog and suggest that they should pay for the running costs too? 3. With over 25 years IT experience and the person who was responsible for the selection and installation of all the Society's PCs and printers between about 1995 and 2003, my hardware suggestions were for reliable, quality kit at the best possible price - Dell's advertising policy is to headline low PC prices but charge high prices for additional or replacement components such as more memory. This works to the Society's advantage when only a basic model is required. The model chosen (E-value Code NPIUK4-D03241) comes from Dell's March Business booklet - and it was not even one of the reduced price sale items - Dell sell mainly rebadged Lexmark printers. Published printer comparisons usually place Lexmark print output quality below HP, Epson, and Brother. I have bought Brother printers for the Society and use them at home without problems. - A printer is a peripheral not a component and if there is a problem use the printer with another PC to determine where the problem lies. So there is absolutely no reason to buy the same make of printer as the PC unless you belong to a large organisation which has a binding cost saving contract with Dell to do so. I have worked for such an organisation . . . - the Dell PC specified included a 1 year return to base repair service. On site maintenance contracts are the ideal but when money is tight and there are volunteers who can carry out basic IT repairs, the risk of doing without is probably worth it This is longer than I intended and I could go on . . . I shall not reply to any further messages on this subject. Cheers, John John Addis-Smith Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England