Hi John I read your email with interest as I have Scottish ancestry which I've done a fair bit of research on. The marriage record you see via Scotland's People is an exact copy of the original entry in the register, so there would be no point in looking at the original as it wouldn't tell you anything further. The original record books are held in a vault for prosperity - but all have been copied exactly as they were produced, in their entirety. Its very odd that there are no witnesses shown, however. I have 3 Scottish Marriage certificates myself from the 19th century (downloaded from SP) and they all show witnesses. If I were you I would telephone the National Registry Office for Scotland on: 0131 314 4411 who I have found to be very helpful in the past when I have had questions. Hope that helps and I'd be interested to hear what the registry office say? 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Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of sog-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 27 February 2014 08:01 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: SOG-UK Digest, Vol 9, Issue 17 Today's Topics: 1. Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 (John Stoneley) 2. Re: Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 (John Hanson) 3. Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland (John Stoneley) 4. Re: Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland PS (Ann Cossar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:05:28 +0000 From: John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 To: SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <530E1ED8.8050204@stoneley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland?s archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions ? perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:31:26 -0000 From: "John Hanson" <john.hanson@one-name.org> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 To: <john@stoneley.com>, <sog-uk@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001101cf3318$949ad340$bdd079c0$@one-name.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Stoneley Sent: 26 February 2014 17:05 To: SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland's People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland's People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar's copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland's archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions - perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:15:23 +0000 From: John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <530E839B.4000300@stoneley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed John, Thanks for your very speedy and constructive response. I have not emailed Else Churchill but I have already spoken to her over the phone. It was at her suggestion that I contacted the appropriate registrar. To be perfectly frank I did not find that Ms Churchill was much interested in the problem I posed nor was she able to make any comment upon whether or not representations had been made to anybody responsible for this decision. I got, rightly or wrongly, the strong impression, as I often have when dealing with the Society, that unless the issue relates to the "great and good " or those living in the 1600s or earlier it merits little attention. My level of genealogy is much more mundane, My concern here is that it seems those who control the original marriage certificates in Scotland have made no arrangements to provide on request (and for a suitable fee) a photo-copy or other digitised copy of an original marriage certificate. Further, as I understand it, they will not allow inspection of the original .They have it but are withholding it. It is, as if Whitehall called in every marriage register post 1837 in England, refused to allow anybody to make a photo copy fiche or other direct copy and said that henceforth you could see nothing but the copy issued by the General Register Office. I was hoping that a member of the Society might be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the position and if I am correct might know of a work around. I have decided to short-circuit matters and have therefore already written to the National Registers of Scotland to see what they have to say. If this does not work I shall be contacting my Member of the Scottish Parliament to see whether he can bring about a change of policy. I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting somebody. However as I live in Scotland not far from Edinburgh if I can get an open sesame it is something that I can deal with myself. Many thanks for your interest John John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:39:03 -0000 From: "Ann Cossar" <cossar@one-name.org> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland PS To: <john@stoneley.com>, <sog-uk@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <1FB0EECFC4BF4937A2AA01F7A8C05B27@Thrimsa> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For Scotland you need a member of ASGRA. We are a separate nation, you know! Ann On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:15 AM, John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> wrote: | I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and | will be contacting somebody. ------------------------------ To contact the SOG-UK list administrator, send an email to SOG-UK-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the SOG-UK mailing list, send an email to SOG-UK@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of SOG-UK Digest, Vol 9, Issue 17 *************************************