<<snipped>> I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office <<snipped>> Actually, strictly speaking no it's not. Cheshire RO can only supply a copy of the entry in the church's register. The version that went to the local registrar is much less accessible. In some cases you can get a photocopy, in other cases it's a hand-written transcript. If it was a register office marriage, you are entirely dependent on the methods of reproduction in today's register office. <<snipped>> but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. <<snipped>> This is, in effect, exactly the same case as in England & Wales. The Registrar gives you a copy of their own document. <<snipped>> This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. .... I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. <<snipped>> I would be wary of accepting the idea that "this is a relatively recent restriction." Bear in mind that Scottish marriages are registered AFTER the event - not at the same time as the ceremony. I would like a concrete statement that the originals were retained first before progressing further - I can imagine a minister filling in a form at the marriage (often in a domestic setting, of course), then transcribing the details at the register office. Would anyone keep those originals? The registrars wouldn't need them - they'd just be piles of loose sheets of paper. It could be rather like Coroners' Reports in England - their (the minister's) personal property. I could be wrong in my suspicions... Is there by any chance a Scots birth certificate? Those (and death certs) have the original signatures? Adrian B

Thanks for that Adrian. I am sorry that my loose terminology has confused the issue. What I should perhaps have said is that what I want are copies of the original entries in the two church registers for comparison. To clarify the position - a James Ferguson was born in 1852 . According to his baptismal record this James was the bastard son of James Ferguson of Arbroath and Isabella White (unmarried) of Weemys. Isabella raises her son whilst living with her great aunt and eventually marries one Hally Martin in Weemys in the Church of Scotland and a James Ferguson (most probably her son but not necessarily so) is a witness. My great grandfather, James Ferguson marries in Warrington in 1877. The marriage took place in St Elphin's church and the church register for that marriage is held at Cheshire record Office. His signature is available in that register . Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be in New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. I have written to New Register House and also to AGRA members in Edinburgh to see if they can help. If, of course the original record , signed by the participants, has been lost or destroyed then that is the end of the matter, but if it is in New Register House somewhere then I should be able to see a copy of it. I have been tracing the elusive James Ferguson for 30 years and this seemed to be a chance of possibly identifying where the man came from in Scotland. No other certificates I am afraid. I will post the result of my avenues of research. Regards John 7/02/2014 10:41, Adrian Bruce wrote: > <<snipped>> > I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s > People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I > can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own > English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they > are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage > certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office > <<snipped>> > > Actually, strictly speaking no it's not. Cheshire RO can only supply a copy > of the entry in the church's register. The version that went to the local > registrar is much less accessible. In some cases you can get a photocopy, in > other cases it's a hand-written transcript. If it was a register office > marriage, you are entirely dependent on the methods of reproduction in > today's register office. > > > <<snipped>> > but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever > view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. > <<snipped>> > > This is, in effect, exactly the same case as in England & Wales. The > Registrar gives you a copy of their own document. > > > <<snipped>> > This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or > digitised copy) on the Scottish document. .... I understand, again from > Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that > copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or > the Fife FHS. > <<snipped>> > > I would be wary of accepting the idea that "this is a relatively recent > restriction." Bear in mind that Scottish marriages are registered AFTER the > event - not at the same time as the ceremony. I would like a concrete > statement that the originals were retained first before progressing further > - I can imagine a minister filling in a form at the marriage (often in a > domestic setting, of course), then transcribing the details at the register > office. Would anyone keep those originals? The registrars wouldn't need them > - they'd just be piles of loose sheets of paper. It could be rather like > Coroners' Reports in England - their (the minister's) personal property. I > could be wrong in my suspicions... > > Is there by any chance a Scots birth certificate? Those (and death certs) > have the original signatures? > > Adrian B > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

<<snipped>> Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be in New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. <<snipped>> OK - the reference to church register clarifies the matter. As for what happened to them, I'm not that surprised no-one seems to quite know. The talk in Scotland is always about the OPRs - the Old Parish Registers, i.e. pre-1855. What never seems to be mentioned are the New Parish Registers, i.e. post-1855. I can't remember whether I asked but I have the impression that any NPRs (and the term is mine, not an official one) could be anywhere with the local RO being favourite. No - hang on - I've just found my reference, I did ask and people cast doubt on whether such things were even kept - PR legislation north of the Border being very different to that South. So - not much help there either, other than agreeing no-one seems to know... Slightly cautiously, slightly cynically, I still remain to be convinced the originals were ever kept. Best of luck.... Adrian B