Instead of trying to think about EGMs etc could we be more practical and think constructively about this situation. Could we not just work as a combined set of volunteers (OK we are all SOG members otherwise we would not be on this list) who agree that we and perhaps other family historians from other lists, FHS, other organisations etc do something before time disappears. First of all, I am wondering whether we have a couple of volunteers who could be detailed to look into the problem and make a report so that an informed decision could then be made. I am assuming that these volunteers would be able to get access to these records, and could see for themselves the scale of the problem. It seems to me that however much we want to preserve the original cards that because of their vast size it just may not be practical. Therefore should we be concentrating on trying to make sure that we have a record of all the data found on the cards. The front has been dealt with, it is the information on the back that we need to think about. Some of the issues that I feel should be in the report are as follows (I am assuming that we accept the fact that we cannot keep them and just want to preserve the info) 1) have all the fronts been filmed and are we happy that as good a job has been done as we could expect (perhaps not 100% but 99.9%) 2) could we find enough volunteers to extract those cards that need extra filming 3) could we find enough storage for those extracted cards before we could get them filmed 4) would the NA be prepared to grant extra time for their storage until we could get this extraction process in mind 5) what about filming (the BerksFHS now has a book scanner that I am sure could be used, I think there are now quite a few other FHSs with this sort of equipment). I leave it at that for now and look forward to receiving feedback via the list. (Please don't shoot me, if you disagree with my viewpoint I don't mind, I am just trying to help). Gillian Stevens Member of SOG, Events co-ordinator for BerksFHS Data administrator for www.familyhistoryonline.net
How very interesting - the reverse of the cards which in some instances contains addresses may be of great interest to those whose ancestors were named Smith, Jones, Brown, or in my case WOOD; yes if a soldier died in WW1 he should be listed on the CWGC site but what about those who survived but whose records somehow disappeared within the system; there is already a loss of data of the "burnt records"- are we to loose another resource? Maybe the responsibility of preservation and transcription could be shared - have all the Family History Societies been consulted - I am a novice but somehow a democratic consultative process should be put into practice -I think we would all welcome all comments and suggestions about the possibility of preserving this irreplaceable data. April Ashton On 15 Mar 2005, at 03:22, Edna & Ken wrote: > > A reply about the WWI Medal cards which might interest you all.CWGC > site > > -------- > > Dear XXXX > > Thank you for your email and for your concern. > > I trust this explains the situation regarding the WW1 medal cards: > > In 1985, the Public Record Office, now The National Archives, began > microfilming the alphabetical card index to the First World War Army > medal > rolls. The front of the cards was microfilmed, with the originals > remaining > in Ministry of Defence (MOD) custody. The National Archives now makes > that > index available to the public in microfiche here at Kew and also via > our > website online http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ > > The MOD now has no further administrative use for the cards, and so > they and > we have offered the original cards to a number of institutions, > museums etc. > So far, none of the institutions approached has wished to take the > cards, > largely on account of the huge transfer and storage costs (and set of > course > against the fact that almost all the information they contain is > available > online). The cards are contained in 143 cabinets, each 5' 10" tall / > 14" > wide / 2' deep, each weighing around 175 kg. > > The reverse side of the index cards has not been copied as the vast > majority > of them are blank. A very small percentage has something written on the > reverse, and in some, but not in all cases, this was the address to > which > the medals were sent. Sampling has found soldiers' addresses on less > than > two cards in three hundred and the resources required to identify and > extract that small percentage of cards from within the total > collection (5-6 > million cards) cannot be justified. Notwithstanding the incompleteness > of > the First World War soldiers' records due to World War 2 bombing, in > many > cases that same home address will be found within the man's service or > pension documents preserved at The National Archives, or indeed on the > Commonwealth War Graves Commission's website http://www.cwgc.org > > The MOD will therefore shortly destroy the cards, this being the only > realistic option. > > I am sorry that this is probably not the reply you will have hoped to > receive, but I hope that this explanation will at least help you to > understand the reasons behind the decision. > > Yours sincerely > > Paul Sturm > Public Services Development Unit > ----- > > >
In message of 14 Mar, April Ashton <ahashton@focalplane.com> wrote: > Do the byelaws preclude emails (to those who have the facility)? Doubt it. One has to show some proof of posting if it got to a law court and I don't think judges have quite worked out about e-mails yet. But I really don't know about this. > April Ashton. > > On 14 Mar 2005, at 20:28, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: > > > In message of 14 Mar, April Ashton <ahashton@focalplane.com> wrote: > > > >> Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item > >> which appears to be so important to so many? > > > > For most organisation an EGM requires a mail shot to all members. Say > > it costs 50p per member to do this, that's £5,000 down the tube out of > > rather scarce cash. I don't think this will happen. > > > > (Not that something else should not be done of cousre, but not an EGM, > > please!) > > > > -- > > Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org > > For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org > > > > > > -- > This email has been verified as Virus free > Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Do the byelaws preclude emails (to those who have the facility)? April Ashton. On 14 Mar 2005, at 20:28, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: > In message of 14 Mar, April Ashton <ahashton@focalplane.com> wrote: > >> Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item >> which appears to be so important to so many? > > For most organisation an EGM requires a mail shot to all members. Say > it costs 50p per member to do this, that's £5,000 down the tube out of > rather scarce cash. I don't think this will happen. > > (Not that something else should not be done of cousre, but not an EGM, > please!) > > -- > Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org > For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org >
A reply about the WWI Medal cards which might interest you all. -------- Dear XXXX Thank you for your email and for your concern. I trust this explains the situation regarding the WW1 medal cards: In 1985, the Public Record Office, now The National Archives, began microfilming the alphabetical card index to the First World War Army medal rolls. The front of the cards was microfilmed, with the originals remaining in Ministry of Defence (MOD) custody. The National Archives now makes that index available to the public in microfiche here at Kew and also via our website online http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ The MOD now has no further administrative use for the cards, and so they and we have offered the original cards to a number of institutions, museums etc. So far, none of the institutions approached has wished to take the cards, largely on account of the huge transfer and storage costs (and set of course against the fact that almost all the information they contain is available online). The cards are contained in 143 cabinets, each 5' 10" tall / 14" wide / 2' deep, each weighing around 175 kg. The reverse side of the index cards has not been copied as the vast majority of them are blank. A very small percentage has something written on the reverse, and in some, but not in all cases, this was the address to which the medals were sent. Sampling has found soldiers' addresses on less than two cards in three hundred and the resources required to identify and extract that small percentage of cards from within the total collection (5-6 million cards) cannot be justified. Notwithstanding the incompleteness of the First World War soldiers' records due to World War 2 bombing, in many cases that same home address will be found within the man's service or pension documents preserved at The National Archives, or indeed on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's website http://www.cwgc.org The MOD will therefore shortly destroy the cards, this being the only realistic option. I am sorry that this is probably not the reply you will have hoped to receive, but I hope that this explanation will at least help you to understand the reasons behind the decision. Yours sincerely Paul Sturm Public Services Development Unit -----
In message of 14 Mar, April Ashton <ahashton@focalplane.com> wrote: > Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item > which appears to be so important to so many? For most organisation an EGM requires a mail shot to all members. Say it costs 50p per member to do this, that's £5,000 down the tube out of rather scarce cash. I don't think this will happen. (Not that something else should not be done of cousre, but not an EGM, please!) -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Yes I had that thought too - or at least an email/telephone discussion /consultation among senior members of relevant committees to make a decision about what SoG can/should do given the time limit - and I'm not seeking to wind anyone up either. We really do not have time for general discussion on the mailing list from what I understand. I have emailed a protest but I am not a prominent and respected organisation. There is nothing else I can realistically do. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "April Ashton" <ahashton@focalplane.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [SoG] WW1 Medal Cards destruction > Dear John: > > Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item > which appears to be so important to so many? I believe these card > could be classified as part of our national heritage? .......... I am > trying to be constructive, not winding you up! > > April Ashton > Gloucestershire. > > On 14 Mar 2005, at 15:10, John Addis-Smith wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:08 +0000, Phil Warn <philwarn@ntlworld.com> > > wrote: > >> Unless the Society Web Pages are wrong, you are on a couple of > >> Committees, > >> so why not ask there, on our behalf? > > > > Neither committee meets in time to do anything before the April > > deadline. > > > > I posted the message to this list to promote serious discussion on the > > subject, not to receive a pathetic attempt to wind me up . . . > > > > > > Regards, John > > > > John Addis-Smith > > Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England > > >
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:08 -0000, Phil Warn <philwarn@ntlworld.com> wrote: > If some one were to do a little bit of digging, perhaps we could find > out how much (in volume terms) would be required to store these cards? If you slog through the version posted to the Kent FHS list you'll find that it's going to be no mean feat to take them on: "140 filing cabinets that contain the 4-6 million cards" I fear the SoG would have to build on a whole new floor for that lot! Certainly there isn't that much space in my garage :-) - Malcolm. -- Malcolm Austen -- malcolm.austen.rw@weald.org.uk
Dear John: Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item which appears to be so important to so many? I believe these card could be classified as part of our national heritage? .......... I am trying to be constructive, not winding you up! April Ashton Gloucestershire. On 14 Mar 2005, at 15:10, John Addis-Smith wrote: > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:08 +0000, Phil Warn <philwarn@ntlworld.com> > wrote: >> Unless the Society Web Pages are wrong, you are on a couple of >> Committees, >> so why not ask there, on our behalf? > > Neither committee meets in time to do anything before the April > deadline. > > I posted the message to this list to promote serious discussion on the > subject, not to receive a pathetic attempt to wind me up . . . > > > Regards, John > > John Addis-Smith > Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England >
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:08 +0000, Phil Warn <philwarn@ntlworld.com> wrote: >Unless the Society Web Pages are wrong, you are on a couple of Committees, >so why not ask there, on our behalf? Neither committee meets in time to do anything before the April deadline. I posted the message to this list to promote serious discussion on the subject, not to receive a pathetic attempt to wind me up . . . Regards, John John Addis-Smith Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England
At 12:43 14/03/2005, John Addis-Smith wrote: > >I received my copy of Your Family Tree this morning and their Editor's > >article is suggesting that the MOD intends to destroy the cards in April, > >saying that they are their copyright property, and since they have been > >filmed, they no longer require them. > >What steps has the SoG taken to make its voice heard and suggest >solutions to this problem? Hi John, Unless the Society Web Pages are wrong, you are on a couple of Committees, so why not ask there, on our behalf? You could bend Frank's ear on the Publication Committee, for example. If some one were to do a little bit of digging, perhaps we could find out how much (in volume terms) would be required to store these cards? Bear in mind, that the PRO (sorry, TNA) makes £3.50 for each medal card download made. I doubt whether they would assist our efforts in reducing their income! Mind you, if the SoG did obtain them, it could add to our income via Origins. So, perhaps the Powers That Be within the Society *could* do a little digging on our behalf? I volunteer you, then, John! On 2nd August 2005, I should get my London Freedom Pass. I will then feel more able to get to the Library. Given my proximity to the Library (Orpington, Kent) I could offer storage space in my garage if that would help? Best wishes, Phil.
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:43:08 +0000, "Merryl Gullick" <merryl@gullick50.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >I received my copy of Your Family Tree this morning and their Editor's >article is suggesting that the MOD intends to destroy the cards in April, >saying that they are their copyright property, and since they have been >filmed, they no longer require them. What steps has the SoG taken to make its voice heard and suggest solutions to this problem? John Addis-Smith Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England
Messages like the one below have been sent to a number of mailing lists much to the upset of the List-admins, so please don't pass it on that way. It has been delayed because our member seems to be confused with her name !! - well at least I was ! -G ====== I received my copy of Your Family Tree this morning and their Editor's article is suggesting that the MOD intends to destroy the cards in April, saying that they are their copyright property, and since they have been filmed, they no longer require them. However, apparently, on the reverse of the cards is the address to where the medals were sent, which has not been filmed and yet is important information to descendants/relations. YFT is starting a campaign to stop these cards being destroyed and maybe handed to another organization such as the Imperial War Museum, or the Veteran's Association, if the National Archives are not willing to accept them and requesting that everyone interested in their retention quickly either writes to the Minister of Defence, Geoff Hoon and the Director of the National Archives, Sarah Tyacke, or to them at Save the Medal Index Cards, C/o Your Family Tree, 30 Monmouth Street, Bath, BA1 2BW or at least send them an email headed Save the Medal Index Cards at yfted@futurenet.co.uk I did not realize there was an address on the reverse of the cards and it would possibly be very helpful to me in finding the correct cards for John Wells and William Wells, as I think their families were living in Wales after the First World War! From Merryl Wells of Luton, Beds. E-Mail: merryl.wells@one-name.org GOONS Mem. No. 1757. Reg. ONS: Bawtree; Gullick/ock; Mem. of Wells Assn. (GOONS Reg.)
Chris, Thank you for the information, will contact them. John Davies. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Watts [mailto:ml@ctwatts.plus.com] Sent: 09 March 2005 09:04 To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SoG] home guard service records TNA Research Guide "Home Front: Second World War, 1939-1945" Domestic Records Information 48 at http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=241 says: For service records of members of the Home Guard, next of-kin only should write to the Army Medal Office, Government Office Buildings, Droitwich, Worcestershire WR9 8AU. Chris Watts ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Davies" <john.m.davies@lineone.net> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:22 PM Subject: [SoG] FW: home guard service records | | | _____ | | From: John Davies [mailto:john.m.davies@lineone.net] | Sent: 08 March 2005 21:14 | To: 'SOG_UK_L@rootsweb.com' | Subject: home guard service records | | | Can anyone please tell me where to find the service records of members of | the home guard | | I am particularly interested in the 53rd Essex based at whipps Cross on the | Walthamstow Leytonstone border. | | I think the number is correct, my father was a member at one time. | | Any information would be appreciated. | | John M Davies. | | | | -- | This email has been verified as Virus free | Virus Protection and more available at http://www.plus.net |
Jeanne. Thanks for this, I was prepared for the usual problems of missing individuals but did not realize it could be so extensive - something to bear in mind. I too am happy with the cost as I have been with the cost of their BMD indexes which I use extensively in conjunction with FreeBMD. Regards David Tappin d.tappin@ntlworld.com Family Personal Web Pages www.tappin.org.uk Family Genealogy Web Pages http://homepage.ntlworld.com/d.tappin -----Original Message----- From: Jeanne Bunting UK [mailto:firgrove@compuserve.com] Sent: 10 March 2005 06:57 To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [SoG] 1837 Online David, >I have used the site quite a number of times already and had no >problems in getting onto it except of course in finding every person that I want.< One thing to bear in mind is that there are a large number of people missing from the 1861 census, at least for London. For example, the whole of Belgrave Sub-District (55,000 people) is missing from the St George Hanover Square Registration District. This, incidentally, included Buckingham Palace. If anyone has the S&N CDs of the 1861 London census, and looks through the street indexes, I guarantee you will not find a single Registration District without missing houses, roads and even areas. I know - I have looked at every one. These street indexes were prepared by the then PRO for use with the films at the FRC, so it means that those designated as MISSING were never filmed even if the records existed. I must say that the search and sort facilities are really excellent and at a maximum of 30p a page it is excellent value. Not only that, but corrections are being done within days! Jeanne Bunting
Yes Rod very impressive. I have used the site quite a number of times already and had no problems in getting onto it except of course in finding every person that I want. On the subject of online records there are now so many different options as to where to look for particular record types that I have found it useful to draw up a simple checklist so that I do not overlook a possible source during my research. Best wishes. David Tappin d.tappin@ntlworld.com Family Personal Web Pages www.tappin.org.uk Family Genealogy Web Pages http://homepage.ntlworld.com/d.tappin -----Original Message----- From: Rod Neep [mailto:rkpn@british-genealogy.com] Sent: 10 March 2005 01:57 To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SoG] 1837 Online In message <000a01c51f3e$a5e440c0$0201a8c0@your6r7do13ox4>, David Tappin <d.tappin@ntlworld.com> writes >The 1837 Online site was featured on BBC Breakfast this morning >concerning the addition of the 1861 Census transcriptions. > >Guess what - the site is currently down! > >Home page shows - "1837online.com is currently undergoing maintenance >and is temporarily unavailable. The site will be live again shortly. We >apologise for any inconvenience caused." Actually, it was down for just 17 minutes, and has been OK ever since. 17 minutes was how long it took for them to add extra server capacity and re-boot the servers. (That's from the horse's mouth). Pretty impressive. That's a bit better than the PRO's 1901 census ;-) Cheers Rod -- Rod Neep
David, >I have used the site quite a number of times already and had no problems in getting onto it except of course in finding every person that I want.< One thing to bear in mind is that there are a large number of people missing from the 1861 census, at least for London. For example, the whole of Belgrave Sub-District (55,000 people) is missing from the St George Hanover Square Registration District. This, incidentally, included Buckingham Palace. If anyone has the S&N CDs of the 1861 London census, and looks through the street indexes, I guarantee you will not find a single Registration District without missing houses, roads and even areas. I know - I have looked at every one. These street indexes were prepared by the then PRO for use with the films at the FRC, so it means that those designated as MISSING were never filmed even if the records existed. I must say that the search and sort facilities are really excellent and at a maximum of 30p a page it is excellent value. Not only that, but corrections are being done within days! Jeanne Bunting
In message <000a01c51f3e$a5e440c0$0201a8c0@your6r7do13ox4>, David Tappin <d.tappin@ntlworld.com> writes >The 1837 Online site was featured on BBC Breakfast this morning >concerning the addition of the 1861 Census transcriptions. > >Guess what - the site is currently down! > >Home page shows - "1837online.com is currently undergoing maintenance >and is temporarily unavailable. The site will be live again shortly. We >apologise for any inconvenience caused." Actually, it was down for just 17 minutes, and has been OK ever since. 17 minutes was how long it took for them to add extra server capacity and re-boot the servers. (That's from the horse's mouth). Pretty impressive. That's a bit better than the PRO's 1901 census ;-) Cheers Rod -- Rod Neep
In message <3.0.1.32.20050305122041.00924ae0@POP3.demon.co.uk>, Geoffrey <lists@sog.org.uk> writes > >As part of a co-operative project between The Archive CD Books Project >and The Society of Genealogists we have recently completed the first >phase of digitising all of the Phillimore's Marriages books in the SoG >Library. > >One of the first county sets to be produced is for Gloucestershire. Geoffrey, and fellow members, Several more have now been completed, and are now available on CD, and we are giving them really high priority to get the remainder scanned and completed very quickly indeed. The full list of them, now 11 counties available, can be seen on the project page at: http://www.rod-neep.co.uk/books/registers/index.htm where there are also some examples of what you can expect to find in the books. Rob Dewsall returned the first batch of 75 books to the SoG Library today, and collected the second batch, which will be scanned immediately, and made available within the next week or so. This next batch includes Berkshire, Cambridgeshire, Cheshire, Devon, Dorset, Essex, Hertfordshire, Huntingdonshire, Kent. (That will leave Leicestershire, Lincolnshire, London, Northamptonshire, Oxfordshire, Suffolk, Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Yorkshire to complete the third and final batch, later this month or early April). Needless to say, we are all very excited about the co-operation between Archive CD Books and the Society of Genealogists to make these extremely useful (and incredibly rare) sets of volumes available on CD. Best regards Rod -- Rod Neep Archive CD Books
On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 23:08:24 -0000, Michael Williamson <mijan@zetnet.co.uk> wrote: > Can any member help or know of anyone who can? Perhaps reply off list to > the person asking. This is just a late, quick and possibly incompletely consodered reply - hence on-list ... It sounds to me like this person is starting from the wrong place. Why mess with Word when the data can be put directly into GenoPro. I find GenoPro great when I have a modest 'tree extract' to present in the Oxfordshire journal. Since the timescale on this task is incredibly short, something that can go straight onto the person's own printer seems rather better than trying to go through a professional? regards, Malcolm. -- Malcolm Austen -- malcolm.austen.rw@weald.org.uk