I have learned from a very kind lady that in the thirties there was a public house called The Colgrave Arms, in Cann Hall Road, Leytonstone. I would be very grateful for any information about this establishment and particularly for advice on how I might discover the origin of its name. It seems to me unlikely that it was named after its landlord, but the 1914 Kelly's Postal Directory of Essex has an Edward Colgrave living at 270 Cannhall Road, Leytonstone. Because Colgrave is quite an unusual name it seems probable to me that there was a connection between the two. What licensing records may there be for that area in the early 1900's and are they accessible? David Binns, Tyneside -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/05

To keep people up to date: the Society has written this week to the MoD regarding the retention of the cards, and the convenor of BGRUC is well aware of the matter. Frank Hardy

News on the website this morning "The Society of Genealogists, on behalf of the British Genealogical Record Users Committee and the genealogical community as a whole formally protests against such destruction of original historical source materials. " The text of the TNA Press Notice and of the letter sent by the Genealogy Officer to the Ministry of Defence are available at www.sog.org.uk Chris Broomfield, Webmaster, Society of Genealogists, London webmaster@sog.org.uk www.sog.org.uk On-line retail shopping? Use www.buy.at/genealogists our affiliate shop and SoG gains funds at no cost to you

J. J. Colledge "Ships Of The Royal Navy" gives Hermione 2nd class cruiser 4,360 tons 320 x 49 1/2 ft 2 - 6in, 8 - 4in, 8 - 6pdr [guns] Devonport DY [Dockyard] 7.11.1893 [Date of contruction] Sold 25.10.21 Multilocular S. Bkg. Co. Resold 18.12.22; renamed Warspite training ship Sold 9.40 Ward, Grays Lt. Cdr. B. Warlow, R.N. "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" gives Herminoe (1893) Lough Larne / Soton, DS [Depot Ship] cr [Cruiser] Guardship Soton and A/P [Auxiliary Patrol] Cd [Commissioned] 08.08.1914 - Hamble River 1914-01.15, Cowes 03.15) PO [Paid Off] 03.`9`5 rb [relieved by] Magpie to C. & M. [Care and Maintenance] Cd. [Commissioned] 10.05.15 Lough Larne v [Vice?] Valiant II (01.06.15) - 01.01.1916 rb [relieved by] Thetis Cd. [Commissioned] Soton DS [Depot Ship] MB [Motor Boat] Res [Reserve] 11.01.1916 v [vice?] ex Resource II/Resourceful - 02.21 (at least). Sold 1921 became TS [Training Ship] Warspite (qv) Warspite (1807 et al) Woolwich, TS [Training Ship] Name used by three of ships lent to The Marine Society - whose ships were [omitted] Hermione, Cr [Cruiser] (1893) sold 18.12.1922 and renamed Warspite, sold 09.1940 That should give you a few more terms to search the internet on. Judging by the above, looks like the ship was in at least the 3rd fleet by WWI (i.e. those held in storage and not manned even by reserves at the start of war). Suggest also contacting Maritime Museum in Greenwich for more details of the Ship. regards Keith Drage Swindon, UK Message text written by INTERNET:SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com >X-Message: #1 Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 17:22:16 +0000 From: Peter Abbott <PeterAbbott.Eymore@btinternet.com> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.2.20050305171927.01d8dba8@mail.btopenworld.com> Subject: Hermione 1st World War Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have a maritime death certificate dated 17th July 1915 for the vessel Hermione. I have done an internet search but cannot find any vessel afloat at that time. Can anyone advise me where enquire. The person was a Mess Room Steward which I assume means that it was not Royal Navy. Thanks Peter<

The preservation of these cards is something that needs to be done but the how is the real challenge. First of all, the weight and space required. 143 cabinets, roughly 6ft tall, 2 ft deep and 14 inches wide. This is roughly 340 square feet which is a space 17 ft x 20 ft, and that is before one makes any provision for access to all but the front row. 175 Kilograms is 380 lbs. Therefore any storage will need to be on a floor capable of taking a loading of 190 lbs per sq ft and there are precious few floor areas around that can take this load. It is greater than the normal design loading for places like garages and ground floors. With these cabinets placed on any surface there is a risk of the floor cracking and the cabinets sinking into the floor. I will talk to the convenor of the British Genealogical Record Users Committee and see if it is possible to get them interested in making representations for the retention of the cards in their present location. A joint approach like that is the best way, in my view, of getting something done because BGRUC represents the whole Family History movement. For those who are unaware of its existence, BGRUC has representatives from the Federation of Family History Societies, the Guild of One Name Studies and the SoG as well as Scottish and Welsh bodies, and all the major repositories in the UK are also represented. Meetings are generally held twice a year, and the next meeting is not scheduled until mid April. Frank Hardy Vice-Chairman, SoG

The problem of the Medal Cards seems now to be in the public domain. the Daily Mail has printed a short article on the subject and the public concern caused. Evidently, The Western Front Association and one or two Comrades Associations have got the bit between their teeth also. I think what is needed now is for all of us to raise the temperature and to sustain the pressure by contacting who we think might have some influence ( and don't forget the forthcoming general election ), MPs, newspapers, Geoff Hoon, National Archives, Imperial War Museum and the like. Show the strength of Family Historians' opinions. It makes one wonder what else has been destroyed in the past without our knowledge or ignored as being unimportant by those we entrust our heritage to. Mike Tebbutt.

yes understood - but where are the practical solutions - this is not one Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey" <lists@sog.org.uk> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [SoG] WW1 Medal Cards destruction > > A number of issues have been raised and some answered, such as the cost of > an EGM but the question "What would an EGM achieve" has not. > > April asked >Do the byelaws preclude emails (to those who have the facility)? > > At the moment we are obliged to give notice by post to ALL members and we > may in the future change the rules to allow email notice. However, at the > moment it is not practical to do so and probably will not be for some time. > There are two main reasons for this. > > The membership secretary has a number of email addresses on file, but we > have no way of knowing which are current, if we were to use those then many > members would not receive the notice. Members forget to change address on > the list, though active members are prety good about this. Casual email > users usually forget to notify the membership secretary. > > This mailing list has only around three and a half percent of the total > membership and have currently active and reliable email addresses. The > cost of updating the membership files to show that they have been emailed > would probably outweigh the postal cost involved. If the percentage of > reliable email addresses were much higher then the possibility would be > there, with the remaining risk that some members would not receive the notice. > > Thank you to Edna for posting some of the facts which does allow us to > assess the value of these records. The key elements (assuming the details > to be correct) are that less than one and a half percent of the card have > addresses on the back and only a percentage of these are not found within > the man's service or pension documents preserved at The National Archives. > Also 143 cabinets would require 340 square feet of storage space with the > cabinets packed together or at least 600 to 660 sq ft to allow access. > This would take a large part of the downstairs library space where the > computers and microform readers are located if the Society were to acquire > them. > > Then there is the removal costs and a large project to sort out the cards > requiring filming. It took many months for a full-time team of filmers to > do the Society Great-Card Index which (if memory serves) was a quarter of > the size. > > A good enough case needs to be made for the retention of the cards to > justify this large project. > > This is not an official reply but simply my views on the subject. > > Geoff > > > > > Geoffrey T. Stone, > SoG Mailing List Administrator. lists@sog.org.uk > http://www.sog.org.uk >

Hi, I hope that everyone that is discussing this subject is also, at least, emailing the campaign at Your Family Tree. It is now appearing obvious that we do not have time to have the Society make an objection on behalf of its members, so we should make our personal views known via this one company that has offered to organize something. As with the campaign regarding the reforming of the Civil Registration a large number of individual objections may have greater impact than a few Family History/Genealogical Societies. Perhaps a member could contact the BBC/Nick Barrett to make the situation more widely known. It is not just family historians that may be concerned about this destruction, but various organizations connected to the Army and other educational institutions - and not just England! At present it seems the Ministry of Defence thinks it can internally do what it likes with national records. Most of the people whose cards I would like to trace had connections with Canada, America, Australia and South Africa. From Merryl Wells of Luton, Beds. E-Mail: merryl.wells@one-name.org GOONS Mem. No. 1757. Reg. ONS: Bawtree; Gullick/ock; Mem. of Wells Assn. (GOONS Reg.) This email has been scanned for viruses by NetBenefit using Sophos anti-virus technology

The problem: 1. TNA has filmed the front of all the cards. 2. Only 1 in 300 has data on the reverse. 3. That data could be immensly valuable, and should be saved. 4. There are 5-6 million cards. A solution? 5. I know that my uncle's card has something on the back, because "PTO" is written on the front! 6. It should therefore be possible for the films to be scanned fairly quickly to find the others marked "PTO". 7. The full name & service number of these could be noted. 8. As all the cards are filed alphabetically, it should be comparatively easy to identify the relevant ones, and discard the rest. IF sufficient interest could be aroused (probably among people able to get to TNA and/or Hayes, Middx.), it should not be too difficult a task to extract and record this potentially valuable data. Just a thought. Tony Eames (in Devon!) SoG 003101 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 09/03/2005

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 07:48:14 +0000, April Ashton wrote: >How very interesting - the reverse of the cards which in some instances >contains addresses It was also stated that the addresses would also be on other available records. That makes a difference does it not? Cheers, Tom <tomp@st.net.au> Tom Perrett Proud to be member of Melbourne DPS, first port of call re Victorian research - http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dpsoc

A number of issues have been raised and some answered, such as the cost of an EGM but the question "What would an EGM achieve" has not. April asked >Do the byelaws preclude emails (to those who have the facility)? At the moment we are obliged to give notice by post to ALL members and we may in the future change the rules to allow email notice. However, at the moment it is not practical to do so and probably will not be for some time. There are two main reasons for this. The membership secretary has a number of email addresses on file, but we have no way of knowing which are current, if we were to use those then many members would not receive the notice. Members forget to change address on the list, though active members are prety good about this. Casual email users usually forget to notify the membership secretary. This mailing list has only around three and a half percent of the total membership and have currently active and reliable email addresses. The cost of updating the membership files to show that they have been emailed would probably outweigh the postal cost involved. If the percentage of reliable email addresses were much higher then the possibility would be there, with the remaining risk that some members would not receive the notice. Thank you to Edna for posting some of the facts which does allow us to assess the value of these records. The key elements (assuming the details to be correct) are that less than one and a half percent of the card have addresses on the back and only a percentage of these are not found within the man's service or pension documents preserved at The National Archives. Also 143 cabinets would require 340 square feet of storage space with the cabinets packed together or at least 600 to 660 sq ft to allow access. This would take a large part of the downstairs library space where the computers and microform readers are located if the Society were to acquire them. Then there is the removal costs and a large project to sort out the cards requiring filming. It took many months for a full-time team of filmers to do the Society Great-Card Index which (if memory serves) was a quarter of the size. A good enough case needs to be made for the retention of the cards to justify this large project. This is not an official reply but simply my views on the subject. Geoff Geoffrey T. Stone, SoG Mailing List Administrator. lists@sog.org.uk http://www.sog.org.uk

I understand that the Fleet Air Arm Museum were offered the MI cards some time ago, but had to turn them down because they are purely Army records and the museum's charitable status relates to the RN. As a side note, they hold the service records for WW1 members of the RN Division, who effectively fought as soldiers in WW1. However, I also understand that the Western Front Association is (or at least was) seriously considering obtaining the cards, with a view to finding a long term home for them. A possible short option being considered was to come to a commercial agreement with the FAA Museum for storage. Unfortunately, I don't know any more than this, so can't say what the current status of these possibilites is. Clearly, there are more interested parties than just the genealogical world, but the short notice gives us little or no time to form a united front. Ken GSS wrote: >Instead of trying to think about EGMs etc could we be more practical and >think constructively about this situation. Could we not just work as a >combined set of volunteers (OK we are all SOG members otherwise we would not >be on this list) who agree that we and perhaps other family historians from >other lists, FHS, other organisations etc do something before time >disappears. > >First of all, I am wondering whether we have a couple of volunteers who >could be detailed to look into the problem and make a report so that an >informed decision could then be made. I am assuming that these volunteers >would be able to get access to these records, and could see for themselves >the scale of the problem. > >It seems to me that however much we want to preserve the original cards that >because of their vast size it just may not be practical. Therefore should >we be concentrating on trying to make sure that we have a record of all the >data found on the cards. The front has been dealt with, it is the >information on the back that we need to think about. > >Some of the issues that I feel should be in the report are as follows (I am >assuming that we accept the fact that we cannot keep them and just want to >preserve the info) >1) have all the fronts been filmed and are we happy that as good a job has >been done as we could expect (perhaps not 100% but 99.9%) >2) could we find enough volunteers to extract those cards that need extra >filming >3) could we find enough storage for those extracted cards before we could >get them filmed >4) would the NA be prepared to grant extra time for their storage until we >could get this extraction process in mind >5) what about filming (the BerksFHS now has a book scanner that I am sure >could be used, I think there are now quite a few other FHSs with this sort >of equipment). > >I leave it at that for now and look forward to receiving feedback via the >list. (Please don't shoot me, if you disagree with my viewpoint I don't >mind, I am just trying to help). > >Gillian Stevens >Member of SOG, Events co-ordinator for BerksFHS >Data administrator for www.familyhistoryonline.net >

No - I'm not strong and in fact use a wheelchair - but it could be managed I'm sure with a little ingenuity. The drawers may have to be lifted separately from one place to another - the main issue is saving the information. If there is no other way I am willing to house a cabinet for a while. So that they are kept safe. In my house on the ground floor I will find a spot somewhere. But SoG would have to do the negotiating because no-one will negotiate with me for one cabinet. And with the best will in the world I have no space for any more. Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: <TebbuA@aol.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [SoG] WWI Medals reply from National Archives - Now a suggestion of what... > Evidently Ros, there are 143 cabinets each 5ft 10ins tall X 2ft deep X > 14ins wide and each weighs approx 175 Kgs. Feeling strong? The Phillistines are > still amongst us, but, then should we be surprised? we are surrounded by > avaricious property developers and carpet baggers of all descriptions. Michael > Tebbutt. > >

This info came from another list: The cards are contained in 143 cabinets, each 5' 10" tall / 14" wide / 2' deep, each weighing around 175 kg. Lynda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rosemary Jarvis" <ros.jarvis@ntlworld.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [SoG] WWI Medals reply from National Archives - Now a suggestion of what we could do > Also - the cards are only 4 x 6 - we may not be talking huge 4 foot high etc > foolscap size filing cabinets? Do we know the actual dimensions? > > Ros > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "GSS" <gss@beeb.net> > To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:09 AM > Subject: Re: [SoG] WWI Medals reply from National Archives - Now a > suggestion of what we could do > > > > Instead of trying to think about EGMs etc could we be more practical and > > think constructively about this situation. Could we not just work as a > > combined set of volunteers

Also - the cards are only 4 x 6 - we may not be talking huge 4 foot high etc foolscap size filing cabinets? Do we know the actual dimensions? Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "GSS" <gss@beeb.net> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [SoG] WWI Medals reply from National Archives - Now a suggestion of what we could do > Instead of trying to think about EGMs etc could we be more practical and > think constructively about this situation. Could we not just work as a > combined set of volunteers (OK we are all SOG members otherwise we would not > be on this list) who agree that we and perhaps other family historians from > other lists, FHS, other organisations etc do something before time > disappears. > > First of all, I am wondering whether we have a couple of volunteers who > could be detailed to look into the problem and make a report so that an > informed decision could then be made. I am assuming that these volunteers > would be able to get access to these records, and could see for themselves > the scale of the problem. > > It seems to me that however much we want to preserve the original cards that > because of their vast size it just may not be practical. Therefore should > we be concentrating on trying to make sure that we have a record of all the > data found on the cards. The front has been dealt with, it is the > information on the back that we need to think about. > > Some of the issues that I feel should be in the report are as follows (I am > assuming that we accept the fact that we cannot keep them and just want to > preserve the info) > 1) have all the fronts been filmed and are we happy that as good a job has > been done as we could expect (perhaps not 100% but 99.9%) > 2) could we find enough volunteers to extract those cards that need extra > filming > 3) could we find enough storage for those extracted cards before we could > get them filmed > 4) would the NA be prepared to grant extra time for their storage until we > could get this extraction process in mind > 5) what about filming (the BerksFHS now has a book scanner that I am sure > could be used, I think there are now quite a few other FHSs with this sort > of equipment). > > I leave it at that for now and look forward to receiving feedback via the > list. (Please don't shoot me, if you disagree with my viewpoint I don't > mind, I am just trying to help). > > Gillian Stevens > Member of SOG, Events co-ordinator for BerksFHS > Data administrator for www.familyhistoryonline.net > > > > >

an eminently practical approach and worth considering. We must remember that paper is heavy and so any potential storage must either be ground floor or strong enough. For instance - in the short term I would take one cabinet and undertake to protect it. I would fetch it providing there was help to put it in the back of an estate car and would manage somehow with help from neighbours at the other end. Immediate issue is protection 140 filing cabinets is 140 people with some space - actually I don't have much but could find a corner temporarily - not ideal I grant you but would give us a breathing space to consider alternatives Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "GSS" <gss@beeb.net> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [SoG] WWI Medals reply from National Archives - Now a suggestion of what we could do > Instead of trying to think about EGMs etc could we be more practical and > think constructively about this situation. Could we not just work as a > combined set of volunteers (OK we are all SOG members otherwise we would not > be on this list) who agree that we and perhaps other family historians from > other lists, FHS, other organisations etc do something before time > disappears. > > First of all, I am wondering whether we have a couple of volunteers who > could be detailed to look into the problem and make a report so that an > informed decision could then be made. I am assuming that these volunteers > would be able to get access to these records, and could see for themselves > the scale of the problem. > > It seems to me that however much we want to preserve the original cards that > because of their vast size it just may not be practical. Therefore should > we be concentrating on trying to make sure that we have a record of all the > data found on the cards. The front has been dealt with, it is the > information on the back that we need to think about. > > Some of the issues that I feel should be in the report are as follows (I am > assuming that we accept the fact that we cannot keep them and just want to > preserve the info) > 1) have all the fronts been filmed and are we happy that as good a job has > been done as we could expect (perhaps not 100% but 99.9%) > 2) could we find enough volunteers to extract those cards that need extra > filming > 3) could we find enough storage for those extracted cards before we could > get them filmed > 4) would the NA be prepared to grant extra time for their storage until we > could get this extraction process in mind > 5) what about filming (the BerksFHS now has a book scanner that I am sure > could be used, I think there are now quite a few other FHSs with this sort > of equipment). > > I leave it at that for now and look forward to receiving feedback via the > list. (Please don't shoot me, if you disagree with my viewpoint I don't > mind, I am just trying to help). > > Gillian Stevens > Member of SOG, Events co-ordinator for BerksFHS > Data administrator for www.familyhistoryonline.net > > > > >

But WHAT would this egm DO ???? Tom On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:04:03 +0000, April Ashton wrote: >Dear John: > >Is there a facility to call an extra general meeting about an item >which appears to be so important to so many? I believe these card >could be classified as part of our national heritage? .......... I am >trying to be constructive, not winding you up! > >April Ashton >Gloucestershire. > >On 14 Mar 2005, at 15:10, John Addis-Smith wrote: > >> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:06:08 +0000, Phil Warn <philwarn@ntlworld.com> >> wrote: >>> Unless the Society Web Pages are wrong, you are on a couple of >>> Committees, >>> so why not ask there, on our behalf? >> >> Neither committee meets in time to do anything before the April >> deadline. >> >> I posted the message to this list to promote serious discussion on the >> subject, not to receive a pathetic attempt to wind me up . . . >> >> >> Regards, John >> >> John Addis-Smith >> Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England >> >

> Sampling has found soldiers' addresses on less > than two cards in three hundred and the resources required to identify and > extract that small percentage of cards from within the total collection > (5-6 million cards) So the Army and - presumably - the ONS are prepared to see around 37000 records of unknown quality, but some certain value, discarded without any attempt to save them. Quite apart from the near certainty that some of the filming has not been sufficiently good and/or more data could be extracted from the cards by direct examination. It would seem that /if/ the MOD can be persuaded to let them go, the firat requirement is to find somewhere to store them, even if only temporarily. After that the long term disposal can be assessed rationally once the emergency has died down. So - does anyone know of around 700sq ft of storage space (allowing double the actual floor area) in not impossibly bad conditions to store something like this? Practical considerations, not long winded discussion are what is needed here! In the long term I'd still be very opposed to destroying original documents - paper is still one of the safest long term archival media - and anyway, as I said above, who knows what the actual quality is of /every/ film image? Hugh Ainsley

The Science Museum has large storage sites one in West London behind Olympia and the other at Wroughton Aerodrome, Wilts where they store donated items they seldom display or in the case of Wroughton , are too large to get into South Ken. I'm sure that if approached they should be able to find a secure spot if only temporarily. Michael Tebbutt

Evidently Ros, there are 143 cabinets each 5ft 10ins tall X 2ft deep X 14ins wide and each weighs approx 175 Kgs. Feeling strong? The Phillistines are still amongst us, but, then should we be surprised? we are surrounded by avaricious property developers and carpet baggers of all descriptions. Michael Tebbutt.