I think I have had the same situation but the term 'under the skirt' was not used. My case was a man who went to Jamaica as a licentiate of the College of Surgeons in Edinburgh in 1816. In 1822, he had a liaison with a woman with whom he had nine children. In 1838, he decided to return to Scotland to take his MD. He brought with him his eldest surviving son, aged 10, who was put into school in Dundee. The rest of the family, including the liaison, remained in Jamaica looking after the property. The father graduated in 1839 and returned to Jamaica late that year or very early the next having a tenth child in November 1840. The son continued at school. In 1842, by special licence, the father married the mother of his children. They had two more children, and then the whole family went to Dundee in 1847. The son became a minister in the Church of Scotland in 1856. In order to become a minister, he had to be legitimate. It would seem that the marriage in 1842, legitimized the son. Susan At 11:43 PM 4/12/2005 +0100, you wrote: > >Cedric Hoptroft wrote > > >> Brian Randell wrote (or, rather, quoted): >> <so I wonder if the usage might be something to do with accepting >> children >> from the husband's previous marriage> > >...but he added > >> I would think it could at least as easily be the other way round. > >...interesting, but in the specific case I'm looking at, the two small >children were said to be (and other evidence backs this up) the children >previously born of the couple who were now marrying each other. > >Under Scots law did their marriage actually legitimise the children, and was >keeping them 'under the skirt' some kind of social convention? > >The marriage took place in about 1843 in Ayrshire. > > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 > >

Brian Randell wrote (or, rather, quoted): <so I wonder if the usage might be something to do with accepting children from the husband's previous marriage> I would think it could at least as easily be the other way round. That is, her husband could be acknowledging that his wife was responsible for two children for which he was going also to accept responsibility. He was getting a wife, but not 'without incumbrances'. Cedric Hoptroff

Hi: A Scottish colleague provided this comment: At 10:23 am +0100 12/4/05, Lindsay Marshall wrote: >The expression rings a vague bell with me, but I don't know it's origin. >However I think that it is *very* unlikely that you could actually >legitimise children whis way (particularly in the Victorian era) - it >would need to be written into law if this were the case and therefore >should be easy to find. > >Here's a quote from Kipling : "I acknowledged him as my feudatory under >the skirt of my protection", so I wonder if the usage might be something >to do with accepting children from the husband's previous marriage >rather than legitimising her children? cheers Brian Randell -- School of Computing Science, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 7RU, UK EMAIL = Brian.Randell@ncl.ac.uk PHONE = +44 191 222 7923 FAX = +44 191 222 8232 URL = http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/~brian.randell/

An ancestor of mine, in the mid 19th century, in Scotland, is said to have married with two of her children "under the skirt", or "under her skirts". My understanding is that this meant she - literally - held two young children under her - presumably voluminous - skirts during the wedding ceremony. This, so I have been told, legitimised them. Can anyone confirm this practice existed? Is the expression "under the skirt" correct? Did it legally legitimise the children? Incidentally, those of a sensitive disposition should beware of Googling too freely with the expression "under her skirt" !

"Rod Neep" <rkpn@british-genealogy.com> wrote : > Jeanne Bunting UK <firgrove@compuserve.com> writes >>John, >> >>>Has no one actually knocked on his/her front door, brandishing a baseball >>club or something similar ?< >> >>You volunteering? <g> >> >>Jeanne Bunting > The owner has every right to do that Jean. > > Well... perhaps not with the baseball bat ;-) Spoil sport ! :-) John B Leic., Eng

"Jeanne Bunting UK" <firgrove@compuserve.com> wrote : > John, > >>Has no one actually knocked on his/her front door, brandishing a baseball > club or something similar ?< > > You volunteering? <g> > > Jeanne Bunting Depends where the b****r lives, but I'd certainly give it a go ! :-) John B Leic., Eng

In message <200504080301_MC3-1-9AB0-7AAF@compuserve.com>, Jeanne Bunting UK <firgrove@compuserve.com> writes >John, > >>Has no one actually knocked on his/her front door, brandishing a baseball >club or something similar ?< > >You volunteering? <g> > >Jeanne Bunting The owner has every right to do that Jean. Well... perhaps not with the baseball bat ;-) Cheers Rod -- Rod Neep

John, >Has no one actually knocked on his/her front door, brandishing a baseball club or something similar ?< You volunteering? <g> Jeanne Bunting

"Frank Hardy" <frank@fchardy.freeserve.co.uk> wrote : <snip> > If you ever question our policy on material leaving the building, just > go and look at the Members Interests slips, and if the surname is in the > range A-B, hard luck. A member who was thought to be trusted took these > for typing over 5 years ago, and, despite many requests, has not > returned this unique material. Unfortunately the odd rogue spoils > things for everyone else. Has no one actually knocked on his/her front door, brandishing a baseball club or something similar ? John B Leic., Eng

As one of the volunteers who is running an indexing project and doing some of the indexing, perhaps I could set down some of the things that I hope that any volunteer will bring to the project. I also see a lot of other volunteers working in the Society and the types of work on which they are engaged. Firstly - accuracy of transcription. The typing or data entry has to be as good as possible, to minimise the number of corrections that have to be made during the checking stage. An e-mail that shows that the sender has not correctly read the document they are quoting does not inspire confidence in the accuracy of their future transcription. Secondly - reliability. The person leading the project needs to know when people are coming in; if several people all come in at the same time, there is only one computer workstation available for all the projects, due to space constraints, so somebody will be disappointed and have had a wasted journey. Much lower down my list of priorities is the number of hours worked or the speed of data input. Quality not quantity is the aim, and reading old handwriting is a skill only obtained by practice. While running projects, I have had several volunteers, who, for whatever reason, have had problems in getting to the Society to do some indexing. Now it would have been helpful if they had just e-mailed me to say Sorry, I cannot get in at present. Instead I was left not knowing if they were going to come in and finish the work. Belatedly, in most cases I did hear from the individuals. Another more general point is that, recently, much of the work needed requires sorting loose papers, or indexing large volumes, which are in poor condition, and, in both cases, we are reluctant to let this material leave the building. In fact, the only things that would normally be lent on special loan for indexing or transcription would be duplicate or readily replaceable material. Copying material for transcription is expensive and takes time. If you ever question our policy on material leaving the building, just go and look at the Members Interests slips, and if the surname is in the range A-B, hard luck. A member who was thought to be trusted took these for typing over 5 years ago, and, despite many requests, has not returned this unique material. Unfortunately the odd rogue spoils things for everyone else. I am also aware that many members, for reasons of distance, cannot get to London. Perhaps there is a parish register that has never been transcribed that you could do locally, and then give your work to the S.o.G., as well as to a local record office. That helps our Society just as much as any other transcription work. For example, one person in Wales has donated many volumes of his transcriptions, and yet he never comes near Charterhouse Buildings. What we do accept and regret is that sometimes something falls through the net and no action is taken. The Society should have replied in those cases where no response has been received, but please bear in mind the sheer volume of post and e-mails that come into the Society daily. Anything relating to volunteers needs to be clearly identified, and this is one area where mail runs less risk of being ignored as it is sorted into the relevant filing drawers for the person or group concerned. I regret that response may be slower than we and you would wish, as the people handling it may well be volunteers themselves. Frank Hardy

Are there any Kent members with information on BENJAMIN PHOTO'S in 19c Greenwich please? Thanks Paul McKenzie replies off-list please use: hiDUMMYpaul@btinternet.com (remove DUMMY)

2 personal experiences:- (Context - my wife is Nigerian) Visiting family in Nigeria in Jan 1991 the post enumeration checks were being done. Teams consisted of enumerator (who spoke English and not the local language) and interpreter. Father in Law (Retired Physics teacher who might appear by dress when indoors as at the other end of the social spectrum) was being questioned in Yoruba. When the enumerator asked for age the interpreter said "Baba won't know - put him down as 80" It was at this stage Papa turned to English and then corrected one or two other small mistranslations of the interpreter. Second story for 1991 UK census. The ethnic questions for our children were a little difficult to understand but I filled them. The enumerator, on collecting, scanned through and told me I had filled them wrongly and told me how to correct. He was wrong and, eventually, I convinced him that I was correct. Many would assume he knew his job. I guess in the area we were living the enumerator's training would not have concentrated on this section of the census. In relative terms, were not the Victorian enumerators better educated than those of today? Michael Isherwood

At 09:51 05/04/2005, Carole Eales wrote: >You are not alone !!! > >I volunteered once, but no-one had the decency to get back to me, as >promised ... I shall not bother to volunteer again !! <vbg> > >Carole Hi Carole, Only once? <vbg> I have volunteered to help with transcribing at home and that has been on the table to the Chairman (now Vice Chairman) of the Society, the Director, the Librarian, you name them I have offered.. [ Because I have variable and mobility problems, most of the work would have to be done at home - apparently I cannot be trusted to take work home with me ............. ] All who had the courtesy to get back to me, that is) have said that X or Y would get back to me. Zilch! They must be the only charity that I know that treats would be volunteers so badly. If I can get to this year's AGM I intend to raise it with the Chairman of the Meeting - usually the President - Prince Michael of Kent. [ Now if I were a funny handshake person ............................... ] Oh well, I know several societies who do not treat such offers so badly Cheers Phil.

Dear Carole Thank you for your reply. I don't feel like such a reject now as you have helped me out more than once in the past and I know how much experience you have and what they are missing! I have more enthusiasm than experience! Kay -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05

Dear Pickard Trepess, Thank you so much for your reply about the household forms and also for the links to the Warwickshire information. I am especially pleased with these as a strong line in my family is in Warwickshire. I shall enjoy looking at them. Kay -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05

Dear Peter Thank you for your excellent reply re the forms delivered to each household. I am delighted to add this to my learning curve. I guess the arrival of the form would have caused great consternation in some households. I have a picture of one who understood the process having to help out some of the neighbours! Do any diary or journal entries exist which describe these processes? Kay -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05

Yes and one of my grandmothers signed her daughter's birth certificate with something of a flourish some 4 motnhs before she made her mark on her marriage cert. She also pretended to be married on said birth cert. Which caused me a lot of problems finding the wedding. Unusual names helped. Conversely another grandmother signed very shakily on her wedding cert and then a year or so later made her mark on the birht cert. You definitely cannot predict literacy from a mark! Ros ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry Langley UK" <GerryLangley@compuserve.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [SoG] Origins > Hi Tim, > >> I think that a high proportion of the population was illiterate then, << > It's as well to note that in "the dark ages" King Richard III complained > bitterly that one quarter of the population was still illiterate. > Nothing much changes. > And beware the "x" on official documents. > It was often the case concerning documents that were filled out > on their behalf (Like Marriage Certificates) that the invitation > was to "make yer mark" - so they did! > My GGF was highly literate and kept accounts and diaries but on > legal papers signed an "X" where the lawyer had pre written > XYZ - his mark. > Food for thought > Regards > Gerry Langley >

I recently made transcriptions of the under mentioned forms as part of the "Families in British India Society" project for the British Library and to expand on their content in a talk to the Society I noted the Illiteracy levels - taken where "His/Her Mark" is used. The Soldiers forms indicated an illiteracy rate of 30% and the Widows at 38%. Though the remark "This man can write" appears as in official hand on several forms ~ as several of those so "exposed" had lost an arm or hand this may be conjectured!!! One supposes that relatives collected the pensions on occasions. The soldiers were all ex Honourable East India Company men, though some did sign on with the British/Indian Army after 1860, and so were of considerable age and there are only some 500 forms to work from. FORMS OF IDENTIFICATION OF INDIAN ARMY PENSIONERS & WIDOWS, 1896 The India Office catalogue describes L/MIL/14/214 as: - Forms of identification of Indian Army Pensioners, forwarded to the India Office by local Magistrates, Police Officers or other Authorities in the UK giving date & place of birth, present address, former regiment, number, details of enlistment, service, discharge and medals and L/MIL/14/215 as: - Similar forms for Soldiers Widows in receipt of Pension, adding date & place of marriage. Peter D.Rogers.

You are not alone !!! I volunteered once, but no-one had the decency to get back to me, as promised ... I shall not bother to volunteer again !! <vbg> Carole -----Original Message----- From: Kay DONALD CLARK [mailto:grannykay@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: 04 April 2005 09:27 To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SoG] Census Access I am disappointed. I had made a list of people to look for. Another thing about responses from SOG. I volunteered twice as a helper and have never received a reply!! Kay -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 4/1/05 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 -- Carole's outgoing mail has been scanned by AVG and is virus free. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005

In my last e-mail, I gave the figure of "2,000 housholds", this should have read "2,000 individuals". I know some districts were big, but not that big. Peter Park. Walon on Thames, Surrey, UK.