By the way, Found a Kate CROOKS 2nd Qtr 1850 Vol. 8, 245 IOW just one little "s" made all the difference. Thanks to all, Edna - Ottawa

Or; Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry will be glad to add them to their collection. Used to be run by a Mr Tony Sargent, who had over 100,000 names on their database. Society website is www.bmsgh.org Edna & Ken <ekbrit@rogers.com> wrote: Certificate exchange site where you can list your unwanted certs:~ http://bmd-cert-exch-site.ourwardfamily.com Edna - Ottawa

Certificate exchange site where you can list your unwanted certs:~ http://bmd-cert-exch-site.ourwardfamily.com Edna - Ottawa

> Did Margot adopt Saint Ursula's name? > > Lawrence. Thanks for the comments! Genealogy is like slaying the hydra - answer one question and you come up with half a dozen more! The "legend" came from an article by the then chaplain of St Ursula's in the 1950s. The Ellis Island manifests and subsequent inspection of the US Censuses bear out the basic details, but raise the question - if the patient was not called Ursula but Margot Alice, where has the story of the church being named after her come from? The church was not there when Margot came to Berne, and the (patchy) church records have no detail of where the name came from. Fortunately, serendipity has been on my side, and I have in the last 24 hours discovered details of a daughter (who died last year - just my luck!) and granddaughter. I've written to her. (It's possible the name was a play on the Bernese coat of arms, which depict a bear - "Ursula" means "little bear"...) Hector

After sending this (with the wrong subject line, so it was only thanks to Geoffrey that it made it to the list), I slept on the problem and realized I had left one stone unturned - I had searched the Ellis Island site for POSTLETHWAITE, but not for CASTLEMAN. And fortunately CASTLEMANs were few, and Mrs C had sailed into New York practically every second year. The ship's manifests revealed the problem - the adopted daughter was neither Ursula nor Postlethwaite, but Margot POSTLEWAITE - so much for oral tradition! The rest has been plain sailing! Hector Davie

Well done Hector. Did Margot adopt Saint Ursula's name? Lawrence. > -----Original Message----- > From: Hector Davie [mailto:hector@dplanet.ch] > Sent: 31 July 2005 13:33 > To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SoG] Ursula Postlethwaite > > > After sending this (with the wrong subject line, so it was > only thanks > to Geoffrey that it made it to the list), I slept on the problem and > realized I had left one stone unturned - I had searched the > Ellis Island > site for POSTLETHWAITE, but not for CASTLEMAN. And fortunately > CASTLEMANs were few, and Mrs C had sailed into New York practically > every second year. > > The ship's manifests revealed the problem - the adopted daughter was > neither Ursula nor Postlethwaite, but Margot POSTLEWAITE - so > much for > oral tradition! The rest has been plain sailing! > > Hector Davie > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: > 28/07/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Ha Haa! Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005

Did she marry between 1901 and 1905? Who did you get the quotation "adopted daughter..." from? - it might be worth trying to identify where the author sourced their info. Have you tried the Times archive and also any St. Louis and Berne local newspapers of the time? Did Mrs. Castlemain leave a will? Are there any records left by Kocher's clinic? And lastly, how about the archives of St. Ursula's itself - Ms. Postlethwaite may have adopted the church's dedication as a replacement forename. Lawrence. > -----Original Message----- > From: Hector Davie (by way of Geoffrey <lists@sog.org.uk>) > [mailto:hector@davie.ch] > Sent: 31 July 2005 10:21 > To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SoG] Ursula Postlethwaite > > > > I'm working on a history of St Ursula's Church, Berne, in preparation > for centenary celebrations next year. The chief benefactor > who gave the > money for the building was a Mrs John Castlemain from St Louis, > Missouri, who came here in 1905 with her "adopted daughter from > Yorkshire", Ursula Postlethwaite. The daughter was treated at the > world-renowned clinic of Professor Emil Kocher. (The operation was > probably for goitre, but one should beware of the idea that the > "daughter" was a young child!) > > A lot of this story rings true - Kocher even lectured in St Louis in > 1904. But neither the 1900 US census nor the 1901 English > census shows > an Ursula Postlethwaite. Nor does FreeBMD come up with one. The local > medical records for 1905 are not extant, one did not need a > passport to > come to Switzerland, the police seldom checked who was staying in the > local hotels. Who was Ursula Postlethwaite? > > I can put up with brick walls before the 1840's or so, but > this is one > from a hundred years ago. There _must_ be a lead somewhere. > Any suggestions? > > Hector Davie > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: > 28/07/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Ha Haa! Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005

I'm working on a history of St Ursula's Church, Berne, in preparation for centenary celebrations next year. The chief benefactor who gave the money for the building was a Mrs John Castlemain from St Louis, Missouri, who came here in 1905 with her "adopted daughter from Yorkshire", Ursula Postlethwaite. The daughter was treated at the world-renowned clinic of Professor Emil Kocher. (The operation was probably for goitre, but one should beware of the idea that the "daughter" was a young child!) A lot of this story rings true - Kocher even lectured in St Louis in 1904. But neither the 1900 US census nor the 1901 English census shows an Ursula Postlethwaite. Nor does FreeBMD come up with one. The local medical records for 1905 are not extant, one did not need a passport to come to Switzerland, the police seldom checked who was staying in the local hotels. Who was Ursula Postlethwaite? I can put up with brick walls before the 1840's or so, but this is one from a hundred years ago. There _must_ be a lead somewhere. Any suggestions? Hector Davie

This applies to Essex Libraries too. Not helpful to those outside the UK I know but widens the net for getting help from someone who does! Regards Christine Nardone

The SoG Outreach Bookstall will be at the Fair on the above date and it would be helpful if a couple of Members from or familiar with the Gateshead area could help in selling our wares to the Fair visitors either for the whole or part of the day. Please reply off List Michael Bunting.

Hi, Actually I was most surprised to receive a reply this morning concerning TCJ WORTH (reply was negative) as I just thought it would not be answered. It was indeed very nice of the lady. With thanks Christine. Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Nardone" <christine.nardone@btinternet.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:50 PM Subject: [SoG] Reference Works and Libraries This applies to Essex Libraries too. Not helpful to those outside the UK I know but widens the net for getting help from someone who does! Regards Christine Nardone

Edna & Ken wrote: > However I am unable to locate your reference or page numbers, the current edition has 60 volumes and there is no T C J Worth listed. > If you would like to come back to me with further information I will try to help, you might also like to look at the web site : > http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ I've looked there (an advantage of working for Oxford University!) trying to follow up on John's analysis. There are only 9 WORTHs, and only 9 WROTHs too. Searching for 'worth' in the full text gets many hits, all those in the CHA-CRA section are concerning wealth. There are lots of WROTHs in the full text search results too - W W Wroth was a prolific contributor! If I get chance this evening I'll paste such (negative) results as I got into an off-list email. = Malcolm.

Hi, The WORTHs were fairly well off. They were the "owners" of Washfield, Devon and Luccombe, Somerset more-or-less. Some came to Bristol and were in the Wine & Spirits business. None of this money ever came to my dear grandmother, Ada Amelia Worth (b. 1870) Bristol. I'll take a look at the Oxford site you have pasted below. You may send your findings off-list as we don't want to bother our listers with this. With many thanks, Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Austen" <malcolm.austen.rw@weald.org.uk> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [SoG] T C J Worth b. 1875 Newport Wales Edna & Ken wrote: > However I am unable to locate your reference or page numbers, the current > edition has 60 volumes and there is no T C J Worth listed. > If you would like to come back to me with further information I will try > to help, you might also like to look at the web site : > http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ I've looked there (an advantage of working for Oxford University!) trying to follow up on John's analysis. There are only 9 WORTHs, and only 9 WROTHs too. Searching for 'worth' in the full text gets many hits, all those in the CHA-CRA section are concerning wealth. There are lots of WROTHs in the full text search results too - W W Wroth was a prolific contributor! If I get chance this evening I'll paste such (negative) results as I got into an off-list email. = Malcolm.

The Suffolk Libraries Direct kindly contacted me today with this message:~ Dear Edna, "Thank you for cntacting Suffolk Libraries Direct. We do have both the new edition and the previous edition of the Dictionary of National Biography in book format. However I am unable to locate your reference or page numbers, the current edition has 60 volumes and there is no T C J Worth listed. If you would like to come back to me with further information I will try to help, you might also like to look at the web site : http://www.oup.com/oxforddnb/info/ Best wishes " ---- -----Original Message----- From: Edna & Ken [mailto:ekbrit@rogers.com] Sent: 30 July 2005 03:49 To: suffolk.libraries.direct@libher.suffolkcc.gov.uk Subject: T C J Worth b. 1875 Newport Wales Good Day, I was wondering if you could help me. I am trying to locate a piece from -- the Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22 which shows a T C J WORTH Monmouthshire Chamber - Craigie Dictionary Of National Biography CRAigie, pg. 1363-- I tried to locate this at the Ottawa City Library to no avail. I hear that you have a full set of these books. Would you be so kind to look up the entry for me please. Will cover the cost of any transmission. With sincere appreciation. Edna - Ottawa, Canada ----

Can a I make a plea to anyone who is going to post the information on about the library catalogue online that they use the link that Chris provided of www.sog.org.uk/sogcat/ And not the one that goes straight into the catalogue. It is essential that people read and understand about the catalogue before using it if we are not to be swamped with silly querries. Regards John -----Original Message----- From: webmaster@sog.org.uk [mailto:webmaster@sog.org.uk] Sent: 28 July 2005 22:43 To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SoG] [SoG-NEWS] New on Website You will see that the pop-up has gone to be replaced by a server side include which we can use as an "information banner". Also for the time being the javascript which provided the "updated date" has also turned into an SSI so no Javascript alert either. Hope you all approve! Also to add the the "new of the Website" theme. I recommend you try www.sog.org.uk/sogcat/ and follow the link to SOGCAT - The Society of Genealogists Library Catalogue Online. But please read the Tutorial and use the FAQs before you shout "I can't find anything" and please not all at the same time!! regards Chris At 00:08 23/07/2005 +0100, you wrote: >webmaster@sog.org.uk wrote: >>I am only the messenger > >Understood Chris :-) > >>- Malcolm's solution would mean scrolling down for the main navigation >>something even more people object too. > >The answer to that is to have less on the front page but it's each to >his own and I won't turn this into a general web design debate :-) > >>Like or not our records show that lecture ticket sales go up with a >>pop-up > >I won't deny the statistics, but feel there are better ways ... > >>the addition of the travel message is temporary until we work out a >>workable alternative - I do use it sparingly more that can be said of >>the TNA whose pop-up is permanent . > >If the pop-up is there, then that's a very worthwhile use for it. I >wasn't aware the TNA site had a pop-up, I've never seen it! (Until I >went to look for it this evening, that is.) > >>I will bear the comment in mind and see if there is another way but I >>assume I should avoid flashing lights or even worse sound! > >As a practical suggestion Chris, to be less irritating to those who do >see the pop-up - how about setting a session cookie to control it so >that it only pops up on the first visit to the home page - or even >pop-up (just >once) on a visit to /any/ page on the site. > >= Malcolm. > > >This email has been scanned for viruses by NetBenefit using Sophos >anti-virus technology > Chris Broomfield, Webmaster, Society of Genealogists, London webmaster@sog.org.uk www.sog.org.uk On-line retail shopping? Use www.buy.at/genealogists our affiliate shop and SoG gains funds at no cost to you

Hi, Thank you John. Seems quite a challenge to locate, which should be relatively easy. I have e-mailed the Suffolk Library for help too. My cousin who lives in W. Harptree will, the next time he's in Bristol, do a search for me as well. With appreciation, Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Addis-Smith" <genl@addisgen.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Cc: "Edna & Ken" <ekbrit@rogers.com> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [SoG] T C J WORTH b. 1875 Newport area, Wales On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:37:44 -0400, "Edna & Ken" <ekbrit@rogers.com> wrote: > Would anyone have access to this Dictionary ~~ > > Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22 > T C J WORTH Monmouthshire Chamber - Craigie Dictionary Of National > Biography CRA 1363. > >Have tried our Ottawa City Library but could not find this entry. I had hoped that someone else would have solved this problem by now. As this has not happened I have decoded the above and looked at two sources available to me at home: A. My Compact (12 pages reduced in size to fit on one page) paper edition of the (Old) DNB: 1. 'Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22' very likely refers to Ancestry's online version of the DNB, since they do not seem to have volume 21 online . . . 2. 'Chamber - Craigie' refers to a particular original printed volume, where the first biography is for a surname 'Chamber' and the last biography surname is 'Craigie' 3. 'CRA 1363' refers to a biography surname starting with 'Cra' and the original volume page number in this volume is: 1363. Now the bad news: On page 1363 there are three biographies: - Walter Cradock (1606? - 1659) - Zachary Cradock (1633 - 1695) - William H Craft (d.1805) I have reads the page through several times and there is no surname WORTH. However, in the Walter Cradock biography there is mention of the Rev William WROTH, pastor of the congregational church at Llanvaches, Monmouthshire in the 17th century . . . B. Then I used Ancestry.co.uk to which I subscribe. 1. I searched the: 'Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22' for WORTH, but there were thousands, since Ancestry does a word search of all the volumes based on optical character readings (OCR). TCJ (or T C J) WORTH did not find that page number either, but searching on: 'WORTH 1363' did! Ancestry uses a very crude search mechanism when more than one word is used in such a search: if each of the words (or initials) are found ANYWHERE on a page then that page counts as a 'hit' . . . As I have previously said, there is no WORTH on the page but there is WROTH ! Because the hit words are not highlighted in the result , there is no knowing whether the OCR interpretation of another word on the page was 'worth'. 2. The Ancestry 'hit' reference was the following: Title, Chapter, Section, Page Chamber - Craigie, Dictionary of National Biography, CRA, 1363 The best way to search the old DNB is from the CD-ROM version or the official online site for the new DNB, which includes all the old DNB biographies, most of which have been updated. I believe the New DNB has not yet been issued on CD-ROM. It is possible to carry out either single word or phrase searches on the complete text (that takes up 100,000 pages in the new DNB print edition). Cheers, John John Addis-Smith Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England

Thanks to my membership in the SOG I have been able to learn from the British Origins Web-site that an ancestor of my children, Valentine Peters son of Richard, Willingham, Cambridgeshire, clerk was apprenticed to Robert Bickley, 2 Feb. 1666/7 Turner's Company. The Willingham Web-site mentions that the records of St Mary and All Saints are available from 1559 - baptisms, marriages, burials. Would there be any member of the SOG who could possible check any of these records to see if there is any mention of either Richard or Valentine? I believe Valentine is the father of Charles, baptised and married in London, and listed in New York USA in 1702. Any help would be very much appreciated since I live in Quebec Canada. Joan Gilday SOG#004277

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:37:44 -0400, "Edna & Ken" <ekbrit@rogers.com> wrote: > Would anyone have access to this Dictionary ~~ > > Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22 > T C J WORTH Monmouthshire Chamber - Craigie Dictionary Of National Biography CRA 1363. > >Have tried our Ottawa City Library but could not find this entry. I had hoped that someone else would have solved this problem by now. As this has not happened I have decoded the above and looked at two sources available to me at home: A. My Compact (12 pages reduced in size to fit on one page) paper edition of the (Old) DNB: 1. 'Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22' very likely refers to Ancestry's online version of the DNB, since they do not seem to have volume 21 online . . . 2. 'Chamber - Craigie' refers to a particular original printed volume, where the first biography is for a surname 'Chamber' and the last biography surname is 'Craigie' 3. 'CRA 1363' refers to a biography surname starting with 'Cra' and the original volume page number in this volume is: 1363. Now the bad news: On page 1363 there are three biographies: - Walter Cradock (1606? - 1659) - Zachary Cradock (1633 - 1695) - William H Craft (d.1805) I have reads the page through several times and there is no surname WORTH. However, in the Walter Cradock biography there is mention of the Rev William WROTH, pastor of the congregational church at Llanvaches, Monmouthshire in the 17th century . . . B. Then I used Ancestry.co.uk to which I subscribe. 1. I searched the: 'Dictionary of National Biography, Volumes 1-20, 22' for WORTH, but there were thousands, since Ancestry does a word search of all the volumes based on optical character readings (OCR). TCJ (or T C J) WORTH did not find that page number either, but searching on: 'WORTH 1363' did! Ancestry uses a very crude search mechanism when more than one word is used in such a search: if each of the words (or initials) are found ANYWHERE on a page then that page counts as a 'hit' . . . As I have previously said, there is no WORTH on the page but there is WROTH ! Because the hit words are not highlighted in the result , there is no knowing whether the OCR interpretation of another word on the page was 'worth'. 2. The Ancestry 'hit' reference was the following: Title, Chapter, Section, Page Chamber - Craigie, Dictionary of National Biography, CRA, 1363 The best way to search the old DNB is from the CD-ROM version or the official online site for the new DNB, which includes all the old DNB biographies, most of which have been updated. I believe the New DNB has not yet been issued on CD-ROM. It is possible to carry out either single word or phrase searches on the complete text (that takes up 100,000 pages in the new DNB print edition). Cheers, John John Addis-Smith Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, England

Hi, I have heard that there is such a card but since I live way over here, I have no such access. Will try a Suffolk web site. We plod on... Thanks anyway. Edna - Ottawa, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Rogers" <newhurst@compuserve.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:42 AM Subject: [SoG] Reference Works and Libraries Reference Works and Libraries.... If you live in Suffolk and have a Library Card then by going onto the net you can access FREE :- InfoTrac, which includes the Periodical Database- about 1 Million articles. Times Digital Archive 1785-1985. Oxford Reference OnLine - works published by Oxford University. xreferplus - Encyclopedias, dictionaries of quotations and a cross word solver(!) Britannica Online. Original Sources (from Britannica)OnLine. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. All for nothing except the need to support your local Library, which contains wonderful things called "Books" And should all else fail then "Ask Suffolk" gets your questions answered by e-mail..... What more could anyone want? Cheers Peter D.Rogers.

Reference Works and Libraries.... If you live in Suffolk and have a Library Card then by going onto the net you can access FREE :- InfoTrac, which includes the Periodical Database- about 1 Million articles. Times Digital Archive 1785-1985. Oxford Reference OnLine - works published by Oxford University. xreferplus - Encyclopedias, dictionaries of quotations and a cross word solver(!) Britannica Online. Original Sources (from Britannica)OnLine. Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. All for nothing except the need to support your local Library, which contains wonderful things called "Books" And should all else fail then "Ask Suffolk" gets your questions answered by e-mail..... What more could anyone want? Cheers Peter D.Rogers.