Just to be quite clear, looking at some 1841 Leicester pages on Origins, we are talking about a pair of columns. The first is headed Whether Born in same County, the second, Whether Born in Scotland, Ireland or Foreign Parts. The first usually has y, Y or yes, or n, N or No (often very curly decorated handwriting), the no entries often followed by a tick. Some No entries are followed by an S, I or F in the second column, though all three can look very similar in curly handwriting, except for the usual cross bar on the F. Quite often there are other ticks and marks jotted down by the clerks counting different categories of person. In most cases despite the variation of the different enumerators' handwriting it is possible to identify the letter. As an example of an unclear letter however, I did note on one sheet http://www.originsnetwork.com/BritishOrigins/BOShowC1841Image.aspx?DI=HO107-0601&ID=0309 in the Foreign etc column a letter which most resembled a giant "small a", but probably was C I for Channel Islands. (I hope the link works correctly for anyone with a subscription.) It certainly does not resemble the enumerator's S, F or A elsewhere on the sheet and looks too much to be just I. Someone will correct me if I am being stupid here! I also note that Origins offers on the search screen a drop down list of possible Birth Places, among which is W I for West Indies, which some helpful enumerator might possibly have used. I suppose this could look a bit like V+T in handwriting...? If the original enquirer will post a link to their page on Origins I am willing to have a look and see what I think. Ian Carter On 1/29/06, PeterGoodey <peter.goodey.gen@gmail.com> wrote: > > Bearing in mind that the original question did indeed use the phrase "seem > to read", Chris' suggestion sounds very plausible. > > Unless the questioner chooses to make an example image available, any > further speculation seems totally pointless. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris Watts [mailto:ml@ctwatts.plus.com] > > Sent: 28 January 2006 21:55 > > To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [SoG] 1841 Census Query > > > > > ...and the T could be an I. > > Giving - Not born in this county and Irish. > > > > Chris > >

"Lorne Pearcey" <lorne.pearcey@talk21.com> wrote : >Many thanks for the suggestions that people have made. Unfortunately, I >don't >have a computer image available or I would happily upload one! But you presumably have names and address - other list members may have access to the census images and could offer opinions based on their own viewing of same. If you post more details, which has been suggested by several others, you may get a better answer. >There is no doubting that the first letter is a 'V' and the second a 'T'. >I have >checked this against other instances of the same letters appearing >in the same >enumerators handwriting. The only slight query is over the >middle letter, but '&' >seems most likely. 'V' simply is a most unlikely option, as is 'T'. Unless we have all been led horribly astray, the relevant columns did not provide for such entries, suggesting that this is a misinterpretation of mid-19th century script. Presumably these entries appear in the columns after the occupation ? >I am tempted by the suggestion that it may refer to 'Visitor' and >'Traveller' or the >like, as this would also tie in with family hearsay. >It would also seem logical - if >they did not know where they were from, >who is to say whether they were born in >the same county or not. >Unfortunately, the occupation is the ever abundant 'Ag >Lab' which doesn't >help much. Following from my previous comment, this indicates that 'V' and 'T' really don't seem likely. 'Visitor' and 'Traveller' do not fit into the last 2 columns of the census form which were about birthplace. If this was an unknown quantity, the columns would probably have been left blank. Family hearsay is often a dangerous animal. Post the census reference, names, address etc and you will allow others to make a judgement from their own viewing of the image. Large chunks of 1841 are available on-line on at least 2 websites, and much is also available on CDs. >Anyway, in the absence of any firm answer I shall keep an open mind! Which may well be unnecessary if you would follow the advice given to you. This is becoming horribly like pulling very difficult teeth, and quite unnecessarily so. John B Leic., Eng

Many thanks for the suggestions that people have made. Unfortunately, I don't have a computer image available or I would happily upload one! There is no doubting that the first letter is a 'V' and the second a 'T'. I have checked this against other instances of the same letters appearing in the same enumerators handwriting. The only slight query is over the middle letter, but '&' seems most likely. I am tempted by the suggestion that it may refer to 'Visitor' and 'Traveller' or the like, as this would also tie in with family hearsay. It would also seem logical - if they did not know where they were from, who is to say whether they were born in the same county or not. Unfortunately, the occupation is the ever abundant 'Ag Lab' which doesn't help much. Anyway, in the absence of any firm answer I shall keep an open mind! --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

Bearing in mind that the original question did indeed use the phrase "seem to read", Chris' suggestion sounds very plausible. Unless the questioner chooses to make an example image available, any further speculation seems totally pointless. > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Watts [mailto:ml@ctwatts.plus.com] > Sent: 28 January 2006 21:55 > To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SoG] 1841 Census Query > > ...and the T could be an I. > Giving - Not born in this county and Irish. > > Chris

| "Catherine Low" <cnlow@telusplanet.net> wrote : | | | > Lorne Pearcey wrote: | > | >On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several | >entries >in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read | >"V&T". | > Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know | > what >it stands for? | | There have been assorted suggestions about this but has anyone else actually | looked at the record ? What is the reference to the original image ? Much of | the script from that time is not quite what we might expect today - an | apparent 'V' could very well be 'N' for instance. | | John B | Leic., Eng ...and the T could be an I. Giving - Not born in this county and Irish. Chris

"Catherine Low" <cnlow@telusplanet.net> wrote : > Lorne Pearcey wrote: > >On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several >entries >in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read >"V&T". > Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know > what >it stands for? There have been assorted suggestions about this but has anyone else actually looked at the record ? What is the reference to the original image ? Much of the script from that time is not quite what we might expect today - an apparent 'V' could very well be 'N' for instance. John B Leic., Eng

How about VISITOR & TRAVELER? or TRANSIENT....? Catherine Lorne Pearcey wrote: >On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several entries in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read "V&T". > > Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know what it stands for? > > Any help gratefully received. Thank you. > > Lorne > > -- There are no attachments to this Email message unless specifically stated in subject line or in the body of this message. Message scanned by Norton AntiVirus - last updated 25th January 2006

I haven't seen the original so don't know how clear the letters are. Could they possibly be RUT (for Rutland)? Lynda ----- Original Message ----- > Just a guess - is the area in Leicestershire close to the border with > another county? > > On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several > entries in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read "V&T". > > > > Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know > what it stands for?

Just a guess - is the area in Leicestershire close to the border with another county? If so "V&T" might indicate that the individual was born in the same Village / Township notwithstanding that that location had 'moved' from one county to another as a result of boundary changes. Best wishes - John Cook ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lorne Pearcey" <lorne.pearcey@talk21.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 24 January 2006 22:09 Subject: 1841 Census Query > On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several entries in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read "V&T". > > Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know what it stands for? > > Any help gratefully received. Thank you. > > Lorne > > > - ------------------------------- > Yahoo! Photos - NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. > > ______________________________

The only other entries I've come across apart from Y and N are I, S and F (Ireland, Scotland and Foreign Parts) > -----Original Message---- > > There are other entries in the column using the standard Y and N as > well..... >

There are other entries in the column using the standard Y and N as well..... Lorne Joan Vinall <jvinall@onetel.com> wrote: I have always understood those two columns as Y and N. Yes and No. Not very helpful to us family historians. Joan --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

I have always understood those two columns as Y and N. Yes and No. Not very helpful to us family historians. Joan

On the 1841 census for part of Leicestershire we have come across several entries in the "Whether born in same county" column that seem to read "V&T". Has anyone else come across this, and more importantly, does anyone know what it stands for? Any help gratefully received. Thank you. Lorne --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo.

Dear All, Having a spare 30 Min's last week in the common room, I had a most interesting time looming through the Genealogists Magazine back numbers and reading the accounts of the societies activities during the War. What was most impressive was that the society continued to operate and thrive throughout while marinating a central London premises. Lecturers where held and the rooms stayed open, dispute members being requested to bring there own sugar if they required it for the tea afterwards. If anything there was an increased urgency in the work the society was doing relating to parish register copies, as there had been instances of churches being blown to bits complete with their registers still uncopied. Clergy where urged to prevent such a happening by getting their parish records microfilmed by the Society ASAP.. On a sad note the society lost a president to enemy action LORD STAMP, whose death was reported at the AGM following his election If ever any one is tempted to moan about the society of today , a look at those past magazines and an understanding of what our predecessors put up with would give cause for thought Are there any of our members who remember these events at 1st hand. It certainly would be interesting to hear their accounts of being genealogists in the midst of war. Julian Duffus duffusjjg@yahoo.co.uk SOG-UK-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: SOG-UK-D Digest Volume 06 : Issue 7 Today's Topics: #1 List Management [Geoffrey ] #2 [SoG-NEWS] Events & News around th [Geoffrey ] #3 Baron de Brueys de Fontcouverte [Geoffrey ] Administrivia: To unsubscribe from SOG-UK-D, send a message to SOG-UK-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but I advise that you just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. REMEMBER to cancel any automatic signature that your email software may generate by setting Signature to "None" if applicable. ______________________________Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:38:49 +0000 From: Geoffrey <lists@sog.org.uk> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: List Management I wil be away for most of February and the first week in March and during that time I am looking for a list-member volunteer to run the list for me. This is not too dificult and advice can be given as required ( training is too formal a word for what is needed). Whilst it is not essential to check for emails every day, alternate days would be expected. If you are willing to do this for about a month, please let me know off list. Regards, Geoff Geoffrey T. Stone, SoG Mailing List Administrator. lists@sog.org.uk http://www.sog.org.uk On-line retail shopping? Use http://www.buy.at/genealogists our affiliate shop and SoG gains funds at no cost to you. ______________________________Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:46:46 +0000 From: Geoffrey <lists@sog.org.uk> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SoG-NEWS] Events & News around the country The Society regularly gets posters and flyers a volunteer has kindly summarised these for members' interests. Discover historic Trade Directories in Guildhall Library Date: Tuesday 24th January at 2.00p.m. A free event at which you can view many of these directories, learn about their history and purchase our new guide to the collection. Places are limited so please telephone 020 7332 1866 Email: printedbooks.guildhall@cityoflondon.gov.uk ============ Shropshire FHS Open Day and Fair Date: Saturday 3rd June 2006 Venue: The Shirehall, Shrewsbury Admission: £3 Free parking Contact for further information: Mrs Pam Jakeman, 5 Sambrook Close, Stirchley, Telford TF3 1RT Email: openday@sfhs.org.uk ============ 11th Yorkshire Family History Fair Date: Saturday 24th June 2006 at 10.00 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. Venue: York Race Course(Knavesmire Exhibition Centre) Admission: £3. Cafeteria facilities. Further details from: Mr A Sampson 1 Oxgang Close, Redcar, Cleveland, TS10 4ND Tel: 01642 486615 ============ Sussex and South London Family History Fair Date: Sunday 12th February 2006 10am -5pm Venue: K2 Crawley Sports Centre, Pease Pottage Hill, Crawley Admission: £2 (accompanied children under 16 free) Easy access from M23 junction 11 (A23 Pease Pottage Hill) ============ Oxford University Continuing Education Venue: Rewley House, 1 Wellingtin Square, Oxford, OX1 2JA Tel: 01865 270368 email: ppdayweek@conted.ox.ac.uk Day courses: "Maps for Local Historians" Saturday 25th March 2006 9.45-5pm Cost: £47 with hot lunch, £40.10 with baguette, £38 without lunch. "Place-names of the Wychwood Area" Saturday 20 May 2006 9.30-5pm Cost: £57 with hot lunch, £50.10 with baguette, £48 without lunch. "Rural England: Twentieth century Histories" Sat. 4 Nov 2006 9.45- 5pm Cost: £47.65 with hot lunch, £40.80 with baguette, £38.65 without lunch. "The Art of Husbandry 1200- 1900" Sat. 25 Nov 2006 9.30-5.15pm Cost: £47.65 with hot lunch, £40.80 with baguette, £38.65 without lunch. Weekend Schools: "The Architecture of the Tudor & Jacobean Age" Friday 12 May at 6.15pm - Sunday 14 May 2006 at 4pm Fee options: Residential single £193, Residential shared £172, Non-residential with meals excluding breakfast £120, Non-residential without meals £77, Baguette lunch (Saturday and/or Sunday) £2.10. "Early English Shire Towns - The Physical Impact of County Government" Saturday 29 April at 9.45 - Sunday 30 April 2006 at 4.15pm Fee options: Residential single £135, Residential shared £124, Non-residential with meals excluding breakfast £98, Non-residential without meals £68, Baguette lunch (Saturday and/or Sunday) £2.10. "Gardens of the Twentieth Century" in conjunction with "The Garden History Society" Friday 27 Oct. to Sunday 29 Oct. 2006 Fee options: Residential single £220.35, Residential shared £198.85, Non-residential with meals excluding breakfast £144.85, Non-residential without meals £98.80, Baguette lunch (Saturday and/or Sunday) £2.15. "Understanding Probate Records c. 1541 - c. 1858" Sat. 21 Oct. at 9.30 to Sunday 22 Oct. 2006 at3.pm Fee options: Residential single £151.10, Residential shared £140.35, Non-residential with meals excluding breakfast £113.35, Non-residential without meals £81.80, Baguette lunch (Saturday and/or Sunday) £2.15. Diplomas: Contact 01865 270369/ 280154 email: ppcert@conted.ox.ac.uk Undergraduate Diploma in "English Local History" is a part time 2 year modular course designed for anyone interested in exploring the history of local communities. Fees: For EU students £750. A higher fee may be charged for non-EU students. Postgraduate certificate in "Architectural History" is a one year part time course taught in conjunction with the MSc/ Diploma in Historic Conservation. Study - one unit a term for 3 terms of 10 weeks duration and submit a dissertation limited to 8,000 words. Advice from Course director Professor Malcolm Airs tel: 01865 270395. Closing date for applications 17 March 2006. Advanced diploma in "Local History via the Internet" Course material will be provided on the Internet and on CD-Rom. Discussion with tutor and other class members over the Internet. Fees: £790 for EU students and £2,350 for all non EU students. Contact: email ppcert@conted.ox.ac.uk Certificate in "Vernacular Architecture" a systematic introduction to vernacular buildings, their place in the landscape, their social context and use, exploring their development from the medieval period onwards. This course will gain a 120 CATS points at level 1, which may be transferred to other Higher Education institutions as the equivalent to the first year of an undergraduate course. Fees: £715 for EU students payable in instalments. A higher fee may be charged for non-EU students. Other courses in Local History: The Department for Continuing Education offers courses in local history at many levels. Courses held in Oxford and its region include: * Daytime and evening weekly classes held throughout Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire offering transferable credit at Level 1. * Oxford University Summer School for Adults, oneweek summer schools held in July and August each year. * Undergraduate Advanced Diploma in Local History, a one-year third-level lnternet-based course. * MSc in English Local History, a two-year, part-time graduate degree of Oxford University. ============ Manuscripts at the Guildhall Library Address: Aldermanbury, London EC2P 2EJ Tel: 020 7332 1863 / 1862 Fax: 020 7600 3384 Email: manuscripts.guildhall@corpoflondon.gov.uk Website: http://www.history.ac.uk/gh Opening hours: Mon- Sat 9.30 a.m. - 4.45 p.m. ============ Biographical Dictionary of British Quakers in Commerce & Industry 1775-1920 Compiled by |Edward H. Milligan, retired librarian of Friends House Library, London. ISBN 1 85072 330 3 Nearly 500 A4 pages, laminated heavy card cover; 3000 entries, indexes of occupations, apprentice masters and schools attended. Over 20 pages of illustrations Price: £30 plus £5 p&p (UK) and £7.50 p&p (Overseas) ============ Clan Johnston/Johnstone Association (U.K.) A strictly non-profit making organisation. Members' annual subscription £10 to cover production and mailing costs. One of the aims of the Clan Association is to help members gain access to advice and assistance with family history research. The committee now includes two Genealogical Officers. Contact: Mrs Pat Pierpoint (Hon. Secretary, The Bugalow, Charles Street, Pegswood, Morpeth, Northumberland NE61 6UN Tel: 01670 504305 Email: pat@patpierpoint.co.uk ============ Society of Genealogists, London The Society is always looking for new volunteers to work at home or in the Society's premises, to be involved in library service, helping new members and visitors and in project work. Volunteers can work on a regular basis, project work or occasionally. Anyone interested in assisting in the running of the Society should contact the Society. By post: Society of Genealogists, 14 Charterhouse Buildings, Goswell Road, London. EC1M 7BA Tel: 020 7251 8799 email: volunteers@sog.org.uk ============ Please contact the references given above. You may also find it useful to occasionally visit GENEVA - http://geneva.weald.org.uk GENEVA is a joint GENUKI/FFHS list of GENealogical EVents and Activities which often has dates and venues stretching twelve months (or more) ahead - SoG events included! ______________________________Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 09:19:28 +0000 From: Geoffrey <lists@sog.org.uk> To: SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Baron de Brueys de Fontcouverte From "Jane Hammond" I am interested in finding out more about the family of the Baron de Brueys de Fontcouverte. His daughter the Demoiselle Anne was born in the Diocese of Usez. married a Huguenot pastor, François Guillaume Durand (1649-1733). They appear to have. lived at Genellac for two or three years (presumably with his wife Anne) until persecution compelled him to flee France, probably in 1685, leaving behind his son François who was taken away by the Jesuits at the age of four and educated at their college in Montpellier. It is believed that his mother Anne was immured in a convent and died there. They are my forebears. Admiral de Brueys commanded the French side at the Battle of the Nile and continued giving orders even after both legs were shot away under him. Presumably he was a descendant of the same family as the Baron. In case this is of interest, François GuillaumeDurand was a chaplain in the service of William III in March 1690. As your article states (December 2005), the king was raising armies abroad to enable him to carry on his fight against the ex-King James II in Ireland. Durand succeeded in Canton Vaux in raising the 2nd and 3rd Battalions of the Regiment of Baltasar. The Geneva clergy, however, decided that combining the duties of captain and minister were incompatible, so he resigned his captaincy but remained chaplain of the Regiment in February 1691. He served with the English army in Savoy under the Duke of Schomberg, afterwards going to Milan and Bruges, where he was in May 1698. He journeyed to Holland and became Minister of the Walloon Church in Nijmeguen in September 1701, dying there on 27 May 1733 at 84. Taken from pedigree in the possession of my cousin, Nicholas Drake of Guernsey, whose grandmother Maude Durand was sister to my grandmother Helen Durand. Jane Brown --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

From "Jane Hammond" <trident@btconnect.com> I am interested in finding out more about the family of the Baron de Brueys de Fontcouverte. His daughter the Demoiselle Anne was born in the Diocese of Usez. married a Huguenot pastor, François Guillaume Durand (1649-1733). They appear to have. lived at Genellac for two or three years (presumably with his wife Anne) until persecution compelled him to flee France, probably in 1685, leaving behind his son François who was taken away by the Jesuits at the age of four and educated at their college in Montpellier. It is believed that his mother Anne was immured in a convent and died there. They are my forebears. Admiral de Brueys commanded the French side at the Battle of the Nile and continued giving orders even after both legs were shot away under him. Presumably he was a descendant of the same family as the Baron. In case this is of interest, François GuillaumeDurand was a chaplain in the service of William III in March 1690. As your article states (December 2005), the king was raising armies abroad to enable him to carry on his fight against the ex-King James II in Ireland. Durand succeeded in Canton Vaux in raising the 2nd and 3rd Battalions of the Regiment of Baltasar. The Geneva clergy, however, decided that combining the duties of captain and minister were incompatible, so he resigned his captaincy but remained chaplain of the Regiment in February 1691. He served with the English army in Savoy under the Duke of Schomberg, afterwards going to Milan and Bruges, where he was in May 1698. He journeyed to Holland and became Minister of the Walloon Church in Nijmeguen in September 1701, dying there on 27 May 1733 at 84. Taken from pedigree in the possession of my cousin, Nicholas Drake of Guernsey, whose grandmother Maude Durand was sister to my grandmother Helen Durand. Jane Brown

A big thank you to those that respond so quickly to my request. Peter A >Peter Abbott <PeterAbbott.Eymore@btinternet.com> wrote: > Is there SKS who has MS Publisher 2002 or later who could convert a >single page file for me. It is a map and I need either a file for >Photoshop, Adobe Reader or jpeg etc. The file is 53kb. > >Thanks > >Peter

I have 2003 and am happy to help if you email me the file Lorne Peter Abbott <PeterAbbott.Eymore@btinternet.com> wrote: Is there SKS who has MS Publisher 2002 or later who could convert a single page file for me. It is a map and I need either a file for Photoshop, Adobe Reader or jpeg etc. The file is 53kb. Thanks Peter --------------------------------- Yahoo! Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now ---------------------------------

Is there SKS who has MS Publisher 2002 or later who could convert a single page file for me. It is a map and I need either a file for Photoshop, Adobe Reader or jpeg etc. The file is 53kb. Thanks Peter

I wil be away for most of February and the first week in March and during that time I am looking for a list-member volunteer to run the list for me. This is not too dificult and advice can be given as required ( training is too formal a word for what is needed). Whilst it is not essential to check for emails every day, alternate days would be expected. If you are willing to do this for about a month, please let me know off list. Regards, Geoff Geoffrey T. Stone, SoG Mailing List Administrator. lists@sog.org.uk http://www.sog.org.uk On-line retail shopping? Use http://www.buy.at/genealogists our affiliate shop and SoG gains funds at no cost to you.

If you have an interest in UK Surname origins then a look at the following site may help you. www.surnameprofiler.org Good Hunting Peter Rogers