Dare I suggest the SoG's own publication My Ancestor was an Apprentice. Stuart Raymond does cover some of these points.   Else Churchill Genealogist Society of Genealogists 14 Charterhouse Buildings Goswell Road London EC1M 7BA direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website www.sog.org.uk   www.Findmypast.co.uk proud to sponsor the Society's centenary year   WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed.  Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm;  Saturdays 11 am - 1pm  and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society’s library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour.   This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it.   Registered Charity No. 233701.  Company limited by guarantee.  Registered No. 115703.  Registered office as above     -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin Moretti Sent: 30 May 2012 14:11 To: [email protected] Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can anyone recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any (even approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish apprentices, private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master was the father or other family member? Many thanks Colin ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the suggestion Nancy, I'll give it a try Colin On 30 May 2012 16:43, Nancy Frey <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Colin, > > When I'm looking for information like this I go to Internet Archive ( > http://archive.org/index.php) > and look for books written earlier as I feel that contemporary accounts > are usual more > 'authoritative'. Just sign up, sign in and search for Apprentice and > you'll get any titles that > they have. > > There are other sites like this, and someone else may have another URL for > you. > > Hope this is helpful. > > Nancy Frey > 137 Wilmot Trail > Newcastle, Ontario > CANADA L1B 1B9 > 905-623-0918 > > "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Colin Moretti" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:10 AM > Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > > > I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to > > apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can anyone > > recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any > (even > > approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish apprentices, > > private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the > > parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master was > > the father or other family member? > > > > Many thanks > > > > Colin > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There is an article in the Guild of One-Name Studies periodical on livery companies.  There are many books about the history of these early guilds. A number of these are in the Guildhall Book collection.  I have a handout I give for talks on this topic I can send to you if you would like a copy. Denise Mortorff Atascadero, CA ________________________________ From: Colin Moretti <[email protected]> To: Nancy Frey <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Thu, May 31, 2012 2:24:28 AM Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships Thanks for the suggestion Nancy, I'll give it a try Colin On 30 May 2012 16:43, Nancy Frey <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Colin, > > When I'm looking for information like this I go to Internet Archive ( > http://archive.org/index.php) > and look for books written earlier as I feel that contemporary accounts > are usual more > 'authoritative'.  Just sign up, sign in and search for Apprentice and > you'll get any titles that > they have. > > There are other sites like this, and someone else may have another URL for > you. > > Hope this is helpful. > > Nancy Frey > 137 Wilmot Trail > Newcastle, Ontario > CANADA  L1B 1B9 > 905-623-0918 > > "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Colin Moretti" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:10 AM > Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > > > I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to > > apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can anyone > > recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any > (even > > approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish apprentices, > > private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the > > parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master was > > the father or other family member? > > > > Many thanks > > > > Colin > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can anyone recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any (even approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish apprentices, private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master was the father or other family member? Many thanks Colin

Hi Colin, When I'm looking for information like this I go to Internet Archive (http://archive.org/index.php) and look for books written earlier as I feel that contemporary accounts are usual more 'authoritative'. Just sign up, sign in and search for Apprentice and you'll get any titles that they have. There are other sites like this, and someone else may have another URL for you. Hope this is helpful. Nancy Frey 137 Wilmot Trail Newcastle, Ontario CANADA L1B 1B9 905-623-0918 "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Moretti" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:10 AM Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to > apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can anyone > recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any (even > approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish apprentices, > private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the > parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master was > the father or other family member? > > Many thanks > > Colin > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is there by any chance a more detailed index to the Genealogists' Magazine other than the indexes which are currently listed on the SOG website? http://www.sog.org.uk/genmag/genmag.shtml Debbie Kennett http://www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html http://cruwys.blogspot.com

The Society has received the following news of the latest AFL seminar that may be of interest to members Else Churchill Please find below, and attached, details of the next in the Archives for London seminar series which I hope may be of interest. Archives for the Napoleonic Wars at the National Army Museum and Beyond Join us in June when we look towards the bicentenary of the Battle of Waterloo in 2015. Dr Alastair Massie, expert on the Crimean War and Head of Archives at the National Army Museum for over 10 years, will take a retrospective look at the Napoleonic Wars as a whole and will give an overview of the rich sources held in the UK that shed light on this conflict. Please note later date Thursday 14 June 2012, 6:00pm (doors 5:30pm) - 7:30pm at London Metropolitan Archives - Huntley Room 40 Northampton Road, London EC1R 0HB Advance booking is essential. Please guarantee your place by contacting e: [email protected] t: 020 7332 3879 Please note new price: This seminar is free to all AfL members, non-members £5 (payable on the door). Bring your questions and news items. Refreshments available. Best wishes Julie Julie Makinson Archivist Archives, Manuscripts & Rare Books Division, School of Oriental & African Studies, Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square, London WC1H OXG (t) +44 (0)20 7898 4142 (f) +44 (0)20 7898 4189 (e) [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Else Churchill Genealogist Society of Genealogists 14 Charterhouse Buildings Goswell Road London EC1M 7BA direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk www.Findmypast.co.uk proud to sponsor the Society's centenary year WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society’s library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. Registered office as above

Thank you for this information, John. Much appreciated. Caroline Gurney www.carosfamily.com On 23 May 2012 08:14, John Hanson <[email protected]> wrote: > All > > I have just noticed that Ancestry have updated their indexes for the National Probate Calendars and have extended the coverage to 1966. They appears to have also remedied the missing entries from the earlier years > > Regards > John Hanson > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All I have just noticed that Ancestry have updated their indexes for the National Probate Calendars and have extended the coverage to 1966. They appears to have also remedied the missing entries from the earlier years Regards John Hanson

Wow! Elaine you are fantastic. Thank you so much Thanks to everyone who responded. You gave me great info. Dinah -----Original Message----- From: elaine newbold <[email protected]> To: sog-uk <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, May 22, 2012 12:28 am Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw Hi Dinah, is baptism is located in the parish registers of Cowley St Mary & St John xfordshire 0 Aug 1881 Harold son of Hen Chas & Haret Sch/Master he registers can be obtained from the Oxfordshire Family History Society ofhs.org.uk) ope this helps egards laine Newbold _______________________________ rom: Dinah <[email protected]> o: [email protected] ent: Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 0:35 ubject: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate it anywhere. is name was Harold “Jack” Shaw. Father Henry Charles Harold Shaw Mother arriet Morris. I have not been able to find anything under Harold. He was born n London or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at Carlton odge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington (district),Oxfordshire, ngland. The 1881 census lists the family as residing at that address. Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my grandfather Harold haw. The second youngest child, Lionel Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford. ionel Shaw is listed in the 1881 England census as an infant. The family mmigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years old on the ship’s manifest. I alculate that he must have been born sometime in 1881. I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth information. Henry harles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw were baptized and married at St. aryleborne in London. Any other records I could check? Different parish irectories, city directories? Go to Oxford? Any assistance would be much ppreciated. I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through August 22 to ork on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). Thank you. Dinah Shaw ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Hi Dinah, You mentioned that you thought Harold may have been born in London or Oxford. There is a Harry Shaw, 1Q 1881, St Olave, 1d 228 According to the index entry on Ancestry this refers to St Olave, Southwark (in Surrey but effectively London, just south of the Thames) The index entry is presented a little better at FreeBMD Hope this helps, Geoff On 22 May 2012, at 07:58, SCJ Bethune wrote: > Dinah > > Henry Charles Shaw and his family (5 children) were living in Pipestone Manitoba in 1891 when the census was taken. There is also a Mary Anne Morris with the the family plus a governess and a domestic servant. All were born in England. Pipestone is a small town in the grain farming area in the southwest corner of Manitoba. > > The census is on the Library and Archives (LAC) website at: www.collectionscanada.gc.ca under 'c' for census. The 1891 census is name searchable. It appears in two forms - pdf (which will allow you to save the page) or jpeg (which looks better); both can be magnified. There are two pages attached to each image, so be sure to search both. > > Harold was listed aged 8 and Lionel was 9. The census was taken on the 2nd May 1891 so Harold could be born as late as 1st May 1883 and still be 8. The Shaws appear not to be in Canada after the 1891 census. I suspect > that they travelled on perhaps going down to the US or back to England. > > There are other censuses also but 1901, 1906 and 1911 are not name searchable. To search those ones put the words "automated genealogy" into your browser and follow the instructions. These indexes were done by volunteers from census sheets that were not easy to transcribe mainly because many of the census takers were dealing with unfamiliar accents and spellings. The handwriting often is dreadful especially the later censuses. For these censuses a search brings up a transcribed list for each census page. At the top of the list is the link to the relevant image on the LAC site. > > Civil registration in Canada is called Vital Statistics and is a provincial responsibility. This means that you need to search in each province's website (if they actually have an index to the registrations) for the births, marriages and deaths. Manitoba does have an index. A very useful additional piece of information is given in the birth index. Use > the "Detail View" button. Most times the mother's full maiden name is > given under "Mother's Details". > > Its database index address is: vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php > > British Columbia also has a very good historic index at: > bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/textual/governmt/vstats/v_events.htm > > Susan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dinah <[email protected]> > Date: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:39 pm > Subject: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw > To: [email protected] > >> >> I am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate >> it anywhere. His name was Harold “Jack” Shaw. Father Henry >> Charles Harold Shaw Mother Harriet Morris. I have not been >> able to find anything under Harold. He was born in London >> or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at >> Carlton Lodge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington >> (district),Oxfordshire, England. The 1881 census lists the >> family as residing at that address. >> >> Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my >> grandfather Harold Shaw. The second youngest child, Lionel >> Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford. Lionel Shaw is >> listed in the 1881 England census as an infant. The family >> immigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship >> “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 1883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years >> old on the ship’s manifest. I calculate that he must have >> been born sometime in 1881. >> >> I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth >> information. Henry Charles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw >> were baptized and married at St. Maryleborne in London. >> Any other records I could check? Different parish >> directories, city directories? Go to Oxford? Any >> assistance would be much appreciated. >> >> I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through >> August 22 to work on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). >> >> Thank you. >> >> Dinah Shaw >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dinah Don't forget that even though he may have been baptised as Harold his birth registration may well have been under another name. Also even though the baptism was in Cowley was that where they were born. Two of the children of my GG Grandfather, John Smith, were born in Hackney yet they were baptised in Lavenham, Suffolk (Thankfully the register said as much) mind I have still not been able to isolate the birth entries - too many John Smith's in Hackney! It is also possible that the surname was misread when it was indexed by the GRO. Regards John Hanson -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of elaine newbold Sent: 22 May 2012 07:27 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw Hi Dinah, His baptism is located in the parish registers of Cowley St Mary & St John Oxfordshire 30 Aug 1881 Harold son of Hen Chas & Haret Sch/Master The registers can be obtained from the Oxfordshire Family History Society (ofhs.org.uk) hope this helps regards Elaine Newbold ________________________________ From: Dinah <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 0:35 Subject: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw I am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate it anywhere. His name was Harold “Jack” Shaw. Father Henry Charles Harold Shaw Mother Harriet Morris. I have not been able to find anything under Harold. He was born in London or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at Carlton Lodge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington (district),Oxfordshire, England. The 1881 census lists the family as residing at that address. Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my grandfather Harold Shaw. The second youngest child, Lionel Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford. Lionel Shaw is listed in the 1881 England census as an infant. The family immigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 1883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years old on the ship’s manifest. I calculate that he must have been born sometime in 1881. I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth information. Henry Charles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw were baptized and married at St. Maryleborne in London. Any other records I could check? Different parish directories, city directories? Go to Oxford? Any assistance would be much appreciated. I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through August 22 to work on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). Thank you. Dinah Shaw ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Dinah,   His baptism is located in the parish registers of Cowley St Mary & St John Oxfordshire   30 Aug 1881  Harold son of Hen Chas & Haret Sch/Master   The registers can be obtained from the Oxfordshire Family History Society (ofhs.org.uk)   hope this helps   regards   Elaine Newbold       ________________________________ From: Dinah <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, 22 May 2012, 0:35 Subject: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw I am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate it anywhere. His name was Harold “Jack” Shaw.  Father Henry Charles Harold Shaw  Mother Harriet Morris. I have not been able to find anything under Harold.  He was born in London or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at Carlton Lodge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington (district),Oxfordshire, England. The 1881 census lists the family as residing at that address. Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my grandfather Harold Shaw.  The second youngest child, Lionel Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford.  Lionel Shaw is listed in the 1881 England census as an infant.  The family immigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 1883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years old on the ship’s manifest.  I calculate that he must have been born sometime in 1881.  I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth information.  Henry Charles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw were baptized and married at St. Maryleborne in London.  Any other records I could check?  Different parish directories, city directories?  Go to Oxford?  Any assistance would be much appreciated. I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through August 22 to work on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). Thank you. Dinah Shaw ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dinah Henry Charles Shaw and his family (5 children) were living in Pipestone Manitoba in 1891 when the census was taken.  There is also a Mary Anne Morris with the the family plus a governess and a domestic servant. All were born in England. Pipestone is a small town in the grain farming area in the southwest corner of Manitoba. The census is on the Library and Archives (LAC) website at:  www.collectionscanada.gc.ca   under 'c' for census. The 1891 census is name searchable. It appears in two forms - pdf (which will allow you to save the page) or jpeg (which looks better); both can be magnified. There are two pages attached to each image, so be sure to search both. Harold was listed aged 8 and Lionel was 9. The census was taken on the 2nd May 1891 so Harold could be born as late as 1st May 1883 and still be 8. The Shaws appear not to be in Canada after the 1891 census. I suspect that they travelled on perhaps going down to the US or back to England. There are other censuses also but 1901, 1906 and 1911 are not name searchable. To search those ones put the words "automated genealogy" into your browser and follow the instructions. These indexes were done by volunteers from census sheets that were not easy to transcribe mainly because many of the census takers were dealing with unfamiliar accents and spellings. The handwriting often is dreadful especially the later censuses.  For these censuses a search brings up a transcribed list for each census page. At the top of the list is the link to the relevant image on the LAC site.  Civil registration in Canada is called Vital Statistics and is a provincial responsibility. This means that you need to search in each province's website (if they actually have an index to the registrations) for the births, marriages and deaths. Manitoba does have an index. A very useful additional piece of information is given in the birth index. Use the "Detail View" button. Most times the mother's full maiden name is given under "Mother's Details". Its database index address is:  vitalstats.gov.mb.ca/Query.php British Columbia also has a very good historic index at:   bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/textual/governmt/vstats/v_events.htm   Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: Dinah <[email protected]> Date: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:39 pm Subject: [SOG-UK] Looking for my greandfather Harold Shaw To: [email protected] > > I am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate > it anywhere. His name was Harold “Jack” Shaw.  Father Henry > Charles Harold Shaw  Mother Harriet Morris. I have not been > able to find anything under Harold.  He was born in London > or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at > Carlton Lodge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington > (district),Oxfordshire, England. The 1881 census lists the > family as residing at that address. >   > Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my > grandfather Harold Shaw.  The second youngest child, Lionel > Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford.  Lionel Shaw is > listed in the 1881 England census as an infant.  The family > immigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship > “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 1883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years > old on the ship’s manifest.  I calculate that he must have > been born sometime in 1881.  >   > I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth > information.  Henry Charles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw > were baptized and married at St. Maryleborne in London.  > Any other records I could check?  Different parish > directories, city directories?  Go to Oxford?  Any > assistance would be much appreciated. >   > I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through > August 22 to work on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). >   > Thank you. >   > Dinah Shaw >   > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am looking for my grandfather’s birth record and cannot locate it anywhere. His name was Harold “Jack” Shaw. Father Henry Charles Harold Shaw Mother Harriet Morris. I have not been able to find anything under Harold. He was born in London or possibly Oxford where his father was the headmaster at Carlton Lodge School located at 239/241 Iffley Rd. in Headington (district),Oxfordshire, England. The 1881 census lists the family as residing at that address. Henry Charles Shaw had 9 children the last of whom was my grandfather Harold Shaw. The second youngest child, Lionel Shaw, was born 27 Jul 1880 in Oxford. Lionel Shaw is listed in the 1881 England census as an infant. The family immigrated to Quebec, Canada arriving there on the ship “Samaritan” on 10 Aug 1883. My grandfather was listed as 2 years old on the ship’s manifest. I calculate that he must have been born sometime in 1881. I cannot find him on any of the websites provided birth information. Henry Charles Shaw and his father Robert Shaw were baptized and married at St. Maryleborne in London. Any other records I could check? Different parish directories, city directories? Go to Oxford? Any assistance would be much appreciated. I live in Guatemala and will be in London from August 4 through August 22 to work on my genealogy (and Olympics, of course). Thank you. Dinah Shaw

The SoG has received the following request for help - BBC London is delving into the past with a new series called 'Your London: Your Place in History' - looking at how YOU can discover the secrets of your past simply by looking through your family album. But we need your help. Do you possess a collection of old family photographs? Ever wondered if the pictures might reveal more about WHO your ancestors were, and the life they may have led? Maybe it's a photo of your great-great uncle whose career was to ring the bells at Bow or your aunt - a flapper girl in the '30s with a colourful life? You may have been told stories about them by other members of your family but would like the help of our expert photo-historian (SoG's Jayne Shrimpton - author of Getting the most from Family Pictures) to see if the pictures hold any more clues about them. If so, then get in touch - [email protected] - And you and your snaps could be featured on BBC London TV. Please leave a brief description of the photographs you have and a contact telephone number. You must live in London and willing to be filmed. We regret we will not be able to respond to all emails. Else Churchill Genealogist Society of Genealogists 14 Charterhouse Buildings Goswell Road London EC1M 7BA direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk www.Findmypast.co.uk proud to sponsor the Society's centenary year WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society's library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. Registered office as above

I came across this item and thought it might be worth passing along. A man in British Columbia has come across a WWI 'death penny' bearing the name Walter Ryles. He appears to be from Newcastle-under-Lyme in Staffs, and they are attempting to locate any related family in order to return it. Walt O'Dowd http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2012/05/british-columbia-man-seeks-descendants-of-soldier-killed-in-world-war-i.html#more

What an excellent and comprehensive reply by Chris Pitt Lewis. Thank you for taking the time to write it, Chris. I am filing it for future reference. Caroline Gurney www.carosfamily.com On 6 May 2012 18:14, Chris Pitt Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: > In message <[email protected]>, Adrian Bruce > <[email protected]> writes >> >><<snipped>> >>In England, 1 January was known as New Year's Day from at least the Middle >>Ages. OED gives a quote from 1393: 'The frosti colde Janever, Whan comen is >>the newe yeer'. Other forms of year started on other days, including the >>civil or legal year which started on 25 March, and formed the basis for most >>of the dates written in years AD. ... Double dating of the form you mention >>was used to avoid ambiguity; I've seen it quite widely used in documents >>from the late 16th century onwards. >><<snipped>> >> >>Andrew, >>Thanks for this. I'd actually seen that Wikipedia reference but was looking >>for Leap Year references so skimmed over it, missing the significance of >>when the new year could be said to start. I suspect the thing I really >>hadn't twigged was that double dating isn't a modern invention to translate >>their dates to ours, but something used back then, implying more than one >>year number system then. >> >>What's interesting is that it tends to split the year number away from the >>calendar in a sense - indeed, "Other forms of year started on other days" >>suggests that different people would have different year numbers. Which >>makes using regnal years (e.g. 5th year of the reign of King ...) rather >>less perverse than my tidy mind imagined. If you have several (well, two) >>year number systems, what's one more? And the ordinary peasant in the street >>becomes more disconnected from the year number, suggesting that the >>inability of people to know their exact ages is not only forgetfulness but >>also a disconnect from the year numbers that would tell them. >> >>Fascinating stuff, >>Adrian B >> >> > > The mistake is to suppose that the fundamental rule is "a year is a leap > year if it is divisible by four". It isn't. > > The Julian Calendar, the reformed calendar introduced by Julius Caesar, > started on the day that we now call 1 January 45 BC, but at the time was > called the Kalends of January in the year in which Caesar was consul for > the 4th time, without a colleague. There was no agreed system for > numbering years in Caesar's Rome - the accepted way to refer to a > specific year was by the names of the annual consuls. > > [Some Roman historians numbered the years from the foundation of the > city of Rome, but they did not agree when that foundation was; later, > the most generally accepted version came to be that of Varro, commencing > in the year we call 753 BC, under which 45 BC would be 709 AUC (ab urbe > condita = from the foundation of the city).] > > 1 January (the Kalends of January) was the day on which the consuls took > office, and so was the start of the Roman civil year. Consequently, ever > since, it has been one of the days most commonly used in Europe to start > the year (25 March and 25 December being two of the others - the days on > which the spring equinox and winter solstice fell around the 1st century > BC, later regarded as the days of the conception and birth of Christ). > > So the rule in the Julian calendar is not that leap years are every year > divisible by 4, but simply that they are every fourth year in a cycle > beginning on 1 January 45 BC (remember when counting back that there was > no year 0). But it is not quite as simple as that, because in the early > years the Roman priests, who were in charge of the calendar, became > confused as to how to count, and inserted too many leap years. > Consequently, adjustments had to be made, and the regular 4 year cycle > does not start until the year beginning on the day that we call 1 > January 8 AD (the Kalends of January in the consulate of Marcus Furius > Camillus and Sextus Nonius Quinctilianus). > > Why do we call it 8 AD (or 8 CE if we want to be politically correct)? > Because we use an era invented in the early 6th century by the monk > Dionysius Exiguus, in which Year 1 is derived from a probably incorrect > calculation of the unknown year of Christ's birth.  It is convenient > (perhaps deliberate?) that he calculated it so that the existing cycle > of leap years, which he inherited, causes them to fall in years > divisible by 4, assuming that we use a year commencing on 1 January or > 25 December. > > The Gregorian calendar does not fundamentally change the cycle. It > modifies it by overlaying a 400 year cycle, under which the years 1600 > and 2000 are leap years, but not 1700, 1800 or 1900, and so on > indefinitely. The detailed calendars referred to in Pope Gregory XIII's > Bull "Inter gravissimas" of 1582 make it clear that these must be years > commencing 1 January. But for the 4 year cycle, the Bull expressly > continues the existing cycle: > > "...statuimus bissextum quarto quoque anno (uti mos est) continuari > debere, præterquam in centesimis annis..." "we ordain that every fourth > year, as the custom is, should continue to be a leap year, except in the > hundredth years...." > > The true answer is therefore that the leap year cycle is a count based > on an arbitrary starting point, which we have maintained unbroken for a > little over 2000 years, and which just happens to coincide with years > divisible by four in our current numbering system. Under the calendar > beginning on 25 March used in England before 1752, the first quarter of > the year was numbered differently, but the leap year cycle was > unchanged, so 29 February did not fall in a year divisible by 4. > -- > Chris Pitt Lewis

In message <[email protected]>, Adrian Bruce <[email protected]> writes > ><<snipped>> >In England, 1 January was known as New Year's Day from at least the Middle >Ages. OED gives a quote from 1393: 'The frosti colde Janever, Whan comen is >the newe yeer'. Other forms of year started on other days, including the >civil or legal year which started on 25 March, and formed the basis for most >of the dates written in years AD. ... Double dating of the form you mention >was used to avoid ambiguity; I've seen it quite widely used in documents >from the late 16th century onwards. ><<snipped>> > >Andrew, >Thanks for this. I'd actually seen that Wikipedia reference but was looking >for Leap Year references so skimmed over it, missing the significance of >when the new year could be said to start. I suspect the thing I really >hadn't twigged was that double dating isn't a modern invention to translate >their dates to ours, but something used back then, implying more than one >year number system then. > >What's interesting is that it tends to split the year number away from the >calendar in a sense - indeed, "Other forms of year started on other days" >suggests that different people would have different year numbers. Which >makes using regnal years (e.g. 5th year of the reign of King ...) rather >less perverse than my tidy mind imagined. If you have several (well, two) >year number systems, what's one more? And the ordinary peasant in the street >becomes more disconnected from the year number, suggesting that the >inability of people to know their exact ages is not only forgetfulness but >also a disconnect from the year numbers that would tell them. > >Fascinating stuff, >Adrian B > > The mistake is to suppose that the fundamental rule is "a year is a leap year if it is divisible by four". It isn't. The Julian Calendar, the reformed calendar introduced by Julius Caesar, started on the day that we now call 1 January 45 BC, but at the time was called the Kalends of January in the year in which Caesar was consul for the 4th time, without a colleague. There was no agreed system for numbering years in Caesar's Rome - the accepted way to refer to a specific year was by the names of the annual consuls. [Some Roman historians numbered the years from the foundation of the city of Rome, but they did not agree when that foundation was; later, the most generally accepted version came to be that of Varro, commencing in the year we call 753 BC, under which 45 BC would be 709 AUC (ab urbe condita = from the foundation of the city).] 1 January (the Kalends of January) was the day on which the consuls took office, and so was the start of the Roman civil year. Consequently, ever since, it has been one of the days most commonly used in Europe to start the year (25 March and 25 December being two of the others - the days on which the spring equinox and winter solstice fell around the 1st century BC, later regarded as the days of the conception and birth of Christ). So the rule in the Julian calendar is not that leap years are every year divisible by 4, but simply that they are every fourth year in a cycle beginning on 1 January 45 BC (remember when counting back that there was no year 0). But it is not quite as simple as that, because in the early years the Roman priests, who were in charge of the calendar, became confused as to how to count, and inserted too many leap years. Consequently, adjustments had to be made, and the regular 4 year cycle does not start until the year beginning on the day that we call 1 January 8 AD (the Kalends of January in the consulate of Marcus Furius Camillus and Sextus Nonius Quinctilianus). Why do we call it 8 AD (or 8 CE if we want to be politically correct)? Because we use an era invented in the early 6th century by the monk Dionysius Exiguus, in which Year 1 is derived from a probably incorrect calculation of the unknown year of Christ's birth. It is convenient (perhaps deliberate?) that he calculated it so that the existing cycle of leap years, which he inherited, causes them to fall in years divisible by 4, assuming that we use a year commencing on 1 January or 25 December. The Gregorian calendar does not fundamentally change the cycle. It modifies it by overlaying a 400 year cycle, under which the years 1600 and 2000 are leap years, but not 1700, 1800 or 1900, and so on indefinitely. The detailed calendars referred to in Pope Gregory XIII's Bull "Inter gravissimas" of 1582 make it clear that these must be years commencing 1 January. But for the 4 year cycle, the Bull expressly continues the existing cycle: "...statuimus bissextum quarto quoque anno (uti mos est) continuari debere, præterquam in centesimis annis..." "we ordain that every fourth year, as the custom is, should continue to be a leap year, except in the hundredth years...." The true answer is therefore that the leap year cycle is a count based on an arbitrary starting point, which we have maintained unbroken for a little over 2000 years, and which just happens to coincide with years divisible by four in our current numbering system. Under the calendar beginning on 25 March used in England before 1752, the first quarter of the year was numbered differently, but the leap year cycle was unchanged, so 29 February did not fall in a year divisible by 4. -- Chris Pitt Lewis

Chris, Your post is a 'keeper'. Many thanks for making it all so clear. Regards, Nancy Frey 137 Wilmot Trail Newcastle, Ontario CANADA L1B 1B9 905-623-0918 "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Pitt Lewis" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Was 29 Feb 1743/44 a Leap Year Day?