Hello Dinah, I am coming in to this a bit late because I did not know the time frame. I wrote an essay on the changes that occurred in the town of Ashford, Kent, when it became a railway centre in the first part of the nineteenth century. Men were recruited from industrial parts of the country as boiler makers and iron workers but the work of painting the carriages and doing the upholstery seemed to fall to those who lived more locally. This would suggest that there were makers of carriages who lived in this area of Kent. Many of the middle class had carriages but few would have had their own coaches. There were, however, time-tabled coach services running in all parts of the country. These were only running for about thirty years before they were superseded by the new railway system. The coaches were able to run successfully once the road surfaces had been improved. best regards, Janet Heskins In a message dated 06/06/2012 01:56:49 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Thank you Alan and all who responded to my question about coach trimmers. It is very interesting, and Alan's is funny. I wonder if lots of folks had coaches in the 1800's or just the well off. I wonder if there is some way to find out if my ancestors trimmed any royal coaches. At any rate, I'll be researching that when I get to London in August. Happy Diamond Jubilee everyone. Dinah ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In message <[email protected]>, Debbie Kennett <[email protected]> writes >Is there by any chance a more detailed index to the Genealogists' Magazine >other than the indexes which are currently listed on the SOG website? > >http://www.sog.org.uk/genmag/genmag.shtml > >Debbie Kennett >http://www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html >http://cruwys.blogspot.com > > Each volume, except the recent ones, has a detailed index, either published separately (together with title and contents pages for binding) or included in the last issue of the volume. Volumes 1 to 4, which were smaller than later volumes, and are generally bound together, have a joint index. However, as far as I am aware, the last volume to be indexed was volume 26, which ended in 2000. We are now almost at the end of Volume 30. Are there any plans to catch up with the indexing? -- Chris Pitt Lewis

Thank you Alan and all who responded to my question about coach trimmers. It is very interesting, and Alan's is funny. I wonder if lots of folks had coaches in the 1800's or just the well off. I wonder if there is some way to find out if my ancestors trimmed any royal coaches. At any rate, I'll be researching that when I get to London in August. Happy Diamond Jubilee everyone. Dinah

Hello Dinah - not sure if you have received an answer 30 or 40 years ago this was still being used. A trimmer is or was a person who fitted the trim to a car, bus or railway carriage. Trim included upholstery of the seats (in a railway carriage much of the work would have been carried out in situ - inside the carriage) padding and cloth trim on the doors and inside roof In the 50 / 60's my uncle was a Foreman trimmer in the Wolverton (now Milton Keynes) railway carriage works. As an aside trimmers usually were freelance upholsterers in their spare time - often "borrowing" cloth from their works. It was years before I realised why all of my patents furniture in the front room was in British Rail green material On 4 June 2012 01:17, Dinah <[email protected]> wrote: > > My London ancestors were coach trimmers. Does anyone know where I could > information on that particular trade? Would they be associated with livery > apprenticeships? > > Thank you > > > DInah Shaw > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

According to "Old Occupations and Descriptions! by Eve McLaughlin a Coach Trimmer is "man who finished the finer details of a coach, train  or later a motor car" ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 4 June 2012, 8:00 Subject: SOG-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 80 Today's Topics:   1. coach trimmers (Dinah) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 20:17:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Dinah <[email protected]> Subject: [SOG-UK] coach trimmers To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My London ancestors were coach trimmers.  Does anyone know where I could information on that particular trade?  Would they be associated with livery apprenticeships? Thank you DInah Shaw ------------------------------ To contact the SOG-UK list administrator, send an email to [email protected] To post a message to the SOG-UK mailing list, send an email to [email protected] __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of SOG-UK Digest, Vol 7, Issue 80 *************************************

As I mentioned in a private e-mail to you, Livery companies were pretty much based in London, but there were similar organizations in many shires, so the location and timeframe make a difference for locating information you may be seeking.  In addition, contacting livery companies that sound like they are akin to an occupation you are researching can be helpful.  Those that have their own websites often have an archivist or a clerk of the organization who can give you some general feedback. If they want to assist you they will let you know, otherwise, hopefully they will provide you with some insights in solving the question you are seeking.  Not all people became members of livery companies from the mid-1700s forward, generally speaking. Denise Mortorff ________________________________ From: Dinah <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, June 3, 2012 5:20:08 PM Subject: [SOG-UK] coach trimmers My London ancestors were coach trimmers.  Does anyone know where I could information on that particular trade?  Would they be associated with livery apprenticeships? Thank you DInah Shaw ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My London ancestors were coach trimmers. Does anyone know where I could information on that particular trade? Would they be associated with livery apprenticeships? Thank you DInah Shaw

Di Many thanks for the information. I'm now not sure whether the entries I extracted from FamilySearch were done before or after the BMDs were added. I didn't find any entries in Northern Ireland but that might just be that there weren't any people with my name there in that period. I have a mystery Cruwys family who are listed in the 2002 Electoral Register but I suspect the relevant BMDs will be in the more recent indexes which are only locally available. Rosemary FamilySearch is totally confused about the geography and political composition of the British Isles. Did you see Chris Paton's blog post: http://britishgenes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/familysearch-remoulds-british-isl es.html FamilySearch have unilaterally decided that we're no longer part of Europe. They've decided to rename the Isles as "the United Kingdom and Ireland". The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which have never been part of the UK or Ireland, are now included in this collection! Best wishes Debbie

And don¹t forget the London FHC is currently housed at TNA, Kew. Debbie, I think the only way to separate out Northern Ireland is to search each NI county separately! Really surprised how bad FS's geography is (and Ancestry come to that). Separate countries for England, Scotland and Wales (and Ireland) but no Northern Ireland category that I can see anywhere! Rosemary On 02/06/2012 10:27, "Diana Bouglas" <[email protected]> wrote: > >Hi Debbie and Rosemary > >The Northern Ireland BMDs post 1922 were definitely not on Family Search >at >first, when Ireland pre-1922 was included - we had a long discussion with >Sharon Hintze of the London FHC about this when they first appeared on >FS. >However, if you now do a search for Murray births in Belfast 1925-35 you >do >get results, so it appears to have changed. The FS source information >contradicts this as it says NI is excluded: > >https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ireland,_Civil_Registration_Indexes >_(FamilySearch_Historical_Records) > >You also get positive results on Ancestry for the same search. Ancestry >appears not to have deaths or marriages though. > >if it's any use to you, the London FHC has the Northern Ireland BMD >indexes >on film up to 1959. Anything after that you have to have searched >locally. >Everything that Grenham's book lists as being filmed by the LDS is >available >in London, including some of the certificates. > >Di Bouglas > > >-------------------------------------------------- >From: "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> >Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:10 PM >To: <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Northern Ireland BMDs > >> Rosemary >> >> Many thanks. I'd rather assumed that Ancestry would have the same >>database >> as FamilySearch. Their notes don't make it very clear whether or not >>BMDs >> for Norther Ireland are actually included. If they are, it would be >>good >> to >> have some way of separating out the Northern Ireland births as I've >> already >> collected all the entries I wanted for the Republic of Ireland. >> >> I'll try asking Chris Paton on Twitter tomorrow. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Debbie >> > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Debbie and Rosemary The Northern Ireland BMDs post 1922 were definitely not on Family Search at first, when Ireland pre-1922 was included - we had a long discussion with Sharon Hintze of the London FHC about this when they first appeared on FS. However, if you now do a search for Murray births in Belfast 1925-35 you do get results, so it appears to have changed. The FS source information contradicts this as it says NI is excluded: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ireland,_Civil_Registration_Indexes_(FamilySearch_Historical_Records) You also get positive results on Ancestry for the same search. Ancestry appears not to have deaths or marriages though. if it's any use to you, the London FHC has the Northern Ireland BMD indexes on film up to 1959. Anything after that you have to have searched locally. Everything that Grenham's book lists as being filmed by the LDS is available in London, including some of the certificates. Di Bouglas -------------------------------------------------- From: "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:10 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Northern Ireland BMDs > Rosemary > > Many thanks. I'd rather assumed that Ancestry would have the same database > as FamilySearch. Their notes don't make it very clear whether or not BMDs > for Norther Ireland are actually included. If they are, it would be good > to > have some way of separating out the Northern Ireland births as I've > already > collected all the entries I wanted for the Republic of Ireland. > > I'll try asking Chris Paton on Twitter tomorrow. > > Best wishes > > Debbie >

Debbie, I've had another look as it was intriguing me. If you type in the Northern Ireland County (e.g. Antrim, Belfast etc) in both Familysearch and Ancestry, it looks like they are all on both sites, even though Familysearch definitely say the civil registrations after 1921 do NOT include Northern Ireland. I'd be interested to see how you get on - I don't have anyone to look for I'm afraid. Of course you'll only get the quarter and the year, and have to apply for the certificate, but you'll know that, it's like England. Rosemary On 01/06/2012 23:10, "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> wrote: >Rosemary > >Many thanks. I'd rather assumed that Ancestry would have the same database >as FamilySearch. Their notes don't make it very clear whether or not BMDs >for Norther Ireland are actually included. If they are, it would be good >to >have some way of separating out the Northern Ireland births as I've >already >collected all the entries I wanted for the Republic of Ireland. > >I'll try asking Chris Paton on Twitter tomorrow. > >Best wishes > >Debbie > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >Behalf Of Rosemary Morgan >Sent: 01 June 2012 22:38 >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Northern Ireland BMDs > >Debbie, > >The ancestry Irish births page suggests that as well as the Familysearch >records, it also contains those from Belfast: > >http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2573&enc=1 > >But does that include all of Northern Ireland? I am not sure. But >someone >who would certainly know the answer is @chrismpaton on twitter! >There are certainly quite a few Patons in Belfast on the above database. > >Hope this helps. > >Rosemary > > >On 01/06/2012 20:52, "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> wrote: > >>Jim, The Irish civil registration indexes that are on FamilySearch from >>1922 >>onwards are for the Republic of Ireland only. >> >>Debbie >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Rosemary Many thanks. I'd rather assumed that Ancestry would have the same database as FamilySearch. Their notes don't make it very clear whether or not BMDs for Norther Ireland are actually included. If they are, it would be good to have some way of separating out the Northern Ireland births as I've already collected all the entries I wanted for the Republic of Ireland. I'll try asking Chris Paton on Twitter tomorrow. Best wishes Debbie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rosemary Morgan Sent: 01 June 2012 22:38 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Northern Ireland BMDs Debbie, The ancestry Irish births page suggests that as well as the Familysearch records, it also contains those from Belfast: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2573&enc=1 But does that include all of Northern Ireland? I am not sure. But someone who would certainly know the answer is @chrismpaton on twitter! There are certainly quite a few Patons in Belfast on the above database. Hope this helps. Rosemary On 01/06/2012 20:52, "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> wrote: >Jim, The Irish civil registration indexes that are on FamilySearch from >1922 >onwards are for the Republic of Ireland only. > >Debbie > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Debbie, The ancestry Irish births page suggests that as well as the Familysearch records, it also contains those from Belfast: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2573&enc=1 But does that include all of Northern Ireland? I am not sure. But someone who would certainly know the answer is @chrismpaton on twitter! There are certainly quite a few Patons in Belfast on the above database. Hope this helps. Rosemary On 01/06/2012 20:52, "Debbie Kennett" <[email protected]> wrote: >Jim, The Irish civil registration indexes that are on FamilySearch from >1922 >onwards are for the Republic of Ireland only. > >Debbie > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jim, The Irish civil registration indexes that are on FamilySearch from 1922 onwards are for the Republic of Ireland only. Debbie

Ancestry.co.uk has indexes to Irish Civil Registrations, 1845-1958 for marriages, 1864-1958 for births and deaths ________________________________ From: Debbie Kennett <[email protected]> To: 'SOG Rootsweb list' <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 1 June 2012, 19:12 Subject: [SOG-UK] Northern Ireland BMDs According to Mark Herber's Ancestral Trails, the old Family Records Centre had a computer index to the civil registration of births in Northern Ireland for 1922-1993. Does anyone know what happened to this and if it is now available at the National Archives? I don't ever recall seeing it on the computers at TNA. The Northern Ireland BMDs are otherwise somewhat inaccessible as they can only been seen at GRONI or in Salt Lake City (the LDS film is not available for loan). Debbie Kennett http://www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html http://cruwys.blogspot.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

According to Mark Herber's Ancestral Trails, the old Family Records Centre had a computer index to the civil registration of births in Northern Ireland for 1922-1993. Does anyone know what happened to this and if it is now available at the National Archives? I don't ever recall seeing it on the computers at TNA. The Northern Ireland BMDs are otherwise somewhat inaccessible as they can only been seen at GRONI or in Salt Lake City (the LDS film is not available for loan). Debbie Kennett http://www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html http://cruwys.blogspot.com

I will send a copy of the handout to your personal e-mail.  I also have a research course at Family Search that is the power point presentation I do for groups re: livery companies if you are interested.  If you do go there to review it, I would appreciate your feedback to me at my personal e-mail address. [email protected]  You may find other resources there as, well, re: apprenticeships. Denise Mortorff Atascadero, California ________________________________ From: Colin Moretti <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, June 1, 2012 2:37:07 AM Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships Thanks Denise, a copy of your handout would be appreciated. Colin [email protected] On 31 May 2012 16:24, DENISE MORTORFF <[email protected]> wrote: > There is an article in the Guild of One-Name Studies periodical on livery > companies.  There are many books about the history of these early guilds. A > number of these are in the Guildhall Book collection.  I have a handout I > give > for talks on this topic I can send to you if you would like a copy. > > Denise Mortorff > Atascadero, CA > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Colin Moretti <[email protected]> > To: Nancy Frey <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Sent: Thu, May 31, 2012 2:24:28 AM > Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > Thanks for the suggestion Nancy, I'll give it a try > > Colin > > On 30 May 2012 16:43, Nancy Frey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Colin, > > > > When I'm looking for information like this I go to Internet Archive ( > > http://archive.org/index.php) > > and look for books written earlier as I feel that contemporary accounts > > are usual more > > 'authoritative'.  Just sign up, sign in and search for Apprentice and > > you'll get any titles that > > they have. > > > > There are other sites like this, and someone else may have another URL > for > > you. > > > > Hope this is helpful. > > > > Nancy Frey > > 137 Wilmot Trail > > Newcastle, Ontario > > CANADA  L1B 1B9 > > 905-623-0918 > > > > "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Colin Moretti" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:10 AM > > Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > > > > > > I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to > > > apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can > anyone > > > recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any > > (even > > > approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish > apprentices, > > > private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the > > > parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master > was > > > the father or other family member? > > > > > > Many thanks > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

www.findmypast.co.uk have just released the Royal Household Staff records from 1526-1924 These records in the past have only been available at Windsor by appointment, details of this first release can be found in the Blog and News sections of the website Regards John Hanson

Thanks Denise, a copy of your handout would be appreciated. Colin [email protected] On 31 May 2012 16:24, DENISE MORTORFF <[email protected]> wrote: > There is an article in the Guild of One-Name Studies periodical on livery > companies. There are many books about the history of these early guilds. A > number of these are in the Guildhall Book collection. I have a handout I > give > for talks on this topic I can send to you if you would like a copy. > > Denise Mortorff > Atascadero, CA > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Colin Moretti <[email protected]> > To: Nancy Frey <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Sent: Thu, May 31, 2012 2:24:28 AM > Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > Thanks for the suggestion Nancy, I'll give it a try > > Colin > > On 30 May 2012 16:43, Nancy Frey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Colin, > > > > When I'm looking for information like this I go to Internet Archive ( > > http://archive.org/index.php) > > and look for books written earlier as I feel that contemporary accounts > > are usual more > > 'authoritative'. Just sign up, sign in and search for Apprentice and > > you'll get any titles that > > they have. > > > > There are other sites like this, and someone else may have another URL > for > > you. > > > > Hope this is helpful. > > > > Nancy Frey > > 137 Wilmot Trail > > Newcastle, Ontario > > CANADA L1B 1B9 > > 905-623-0918 > > > > "I'm a Genealogist and I Raise Dust Bunnies as Pets." > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Colin Moretti" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:10 AM > > Subject: [SOG-UK] Apprenticeships > > > > > > > I'm presently seeking detailed information about the background to > > > apprenticeships, particularly in the 17th and 18th centuries; can > anyone > > > recommend an authoritative work on the subject? Does anyone have any > > (even > > > approximate) figures for the relative proportions of parish > apprentices, > > > private apprenticeships (ie those for which a premium was paid by the > > > parent or guardian, etc) and family apprenticeships where the master > was > > > the father or other family member? > > > > > > Many thanks > > > > > > Colin > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Indeed you may, Else, thanks for reminding me. Colin On 31 May 2012 10:43, Else Churchill <[email protected]> wrote: > Dare I suggest the SoG's own publication My Ancestor was an Apprentice. > Stuart Raymond does cover some of these points. > > > Else Churchill > Genealogist > Society of Genealogists > 14 Charterhouse Buildings > Goswell Road > London EC1M 7BA > direct phone 020 7702 5488 > visit the Society of Genealogists' Website www.sog.org.uk >