Colin It may be worth a look at the Crystal Palace Foundation site http://www.crystalpalacefoundation.org.uk/ They hold records ephemera etc. Good Luck and a Happy New Year Colin Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Ward" <colinward01@btinternet.com> To: <SOG-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 1:40 PM Subject: [SOG-UK] Competition at the Crystal Palace for London childrenplaying any instrument - early 1900's >I do not know if anyone can help solve a brickwall in my research relating > to my half granduncle Anthony Bernard 1890-1963 who was an organist, > musician, composer and conductor. Among many achievements he was the > founder > of the London Chamber Orchestra and musical director of the Royal > Shakespeare Company from 1932-1942. The problem I have is related to a > reference in Anthony's second wife Mary Beattie's commissioned book > 'Anthony > Bernard - A Life in Music' and written by Ewald Junge. There is a > statement; > "... at 12 years old he entered a competition at the Crystal Palace for > London children playing any instrument they pleased - Sir Harry Lauder was > one of the judges and Anthony won first prize for piano playing. Sir Harry > presented him with a violin and enough money to enable him to carry on his > piano studies at the Birmingham Midland Institute under John Holbrooke and > organ under Dr. T. Haigh." I have been unable to find any reference to > this > competition. I should also add that Anthony's birth certificate gives his > name as Alan Charles Butler and mother Rosetta Butler nee Casselden. Alan > was in fact illegitimate and according to the 1919 deed poll he used to > change his name to Anthony Bernard identifies his father as Thomas Bidgood > 1858-1925. In the 1901 (census) Alan was living with his mother Rosetta > now > using the surname Barnard. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where > I > might be able to find information of the competition at the Crystal > Palace. > > > > Colin Ward > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6968 - Release Date: 01/02/14 >

Which reminds me, in the Christmas edition of Downton Abbey, I'm sure that Carson the butler suggested an outing to see Crystal Palace "at its new site in South London". In fact the Crystal Palace removed to Sydenham around 1854, almost certainly before Carson was born. Peter > When the Crystal palace was relocated to Sydenham, it was managed by a > private company. That company went bust around 1910 and cash was > raised by a public appeal to buy it. Ownership was then vested in a > board of trustees that included representatives from the local > authorities in the area, including the then London County Council. > Subsequently, the control passed to the London Boroughs of Bromley, > Southwark and Lambeth whose boundaries converge on Sydenham Hill. > > I suggest that you contact London Metropolitan Archives in the first > instance and ask whether they hold the relevant archives, or if they > know where they are deposited. Alternatively, you could make a search > on the a2a web site. > > Best wishes, > > Marion Woolgar > Bognor Regis, West Sussex > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When the Crystal palace was relocated to Sydenham, it was managed by a private company. That company went bust around 1910 and cash was raised by a public appeal to buy it. Ownership was then vested in a board of trustees that included representatives from the local authorities in the area, including the then London County Council. Subsequently, the control passed to the London Boroughs of Bromley, Southwark and Lambeth whose boundaries converge on Sydenham Hill. I suggest that you contact London Metropolitan Archives in the first instance and ask whether they hold the relevant archives, or if they know where they are deposited. Alternatively, you could make a search on the a2a web site. Best wishes, Marion Woolgar Bognor Regis, West Sussex

I do not know if anyone can help solve a brickwall in my research relating to my half granduncle Anthony Bernard 1890-1963 who was an organist, musician, composer and conductor. Among many achievements he was the founder of the London Chamber Orchestra and musical director of the Royal Shakespeare Company from 1932-1942. The problem I have is related to a reference in Anthony's second wife Mary Beattie's commissioned book 'Anthony Bernard - A Life in Music' and written by Ewald Junge. There is a statement; "... at 12 years old he entered a competition at the Crystal Palace for London children playing any instrument they pleased - Sir Harry Lauder was one of the judges and Anthony won first prize for piano playing. Sir Harry presented him with a violin and enough money to enable him to carry on his piano studies at the Birmingham Midland Institute under John Holbrooke and organ under Dr. T. Haigh." I have been unable to find any reference to this competition. I should also add that Anthony's birth certificate gives his name as Alan Charles Butler and mother Rosetta Butler nee Casselden. Alan was in fact illegitimate and according to the 1919 deed poll he used to change his name to Anthony Bernard identifies his father as Thomas Bidgood 1858-1925. In the 1901 (census) Alan was living with his mother Rosetta now using the surname Barnard. I would appreciate any suggestions as to where I might be able to find information of the competition at the Crystal Palace. Colin Ward

Members may be interested in the following notice General Press Release New User Group is formed for Archives Centre in Maidstone The purpose built Kent History and Library Centre (KHLC) opened among much publicity in 2012 claiming to be 'built to protect and give people access to more of our archive material'. Sadly, however, it would seem that all is not well at KHLC. Statistics show that there has been a drop of more than 16% in the number of customers rating the service of the new archives as 'good' or 'very good' compared to the service in the previous archives at the Centre for Kentish Studies (CKS). One of the purposes of the new building was to provide easy access to the information held in the archives. However, since the move from the Centre for Kentish Studies many issues have arisen which are in fact inhibiting easy access. The focus of the new building is that of a library rather than of an active archive; the facilities are poor and there are staff with little or no knowledge of the documents. The centre currently fails to provide an appropriate environment for the public to access the records and worse, a number of important documents cannot now be located since the move from the archive at CKS. As the custodian of these important records it is KCC's responsibility to provide appropriate storage conditions which will preserve them for the future which KHLC does do. It is also their responsibility to ensure that they are readily accessible to the many members of the public who wish to access them. This is where it fails spectacularly. By means of feedback from users and regular meetings we hope to be able to work with management at KHLC to improve access to and understanding of the archives for all users. The first meeting with KCC representatives will take place on Thursday 16th January at 2pm at KHLC and all are welcome to attend. Further details of the group can be found at <http://www.khcarchivesusergroup.org.uk/> http://www.khcarchivesusergroup.org.uk/ If you have any concerns about the archives you would like the group to raise on your behalf please email usergroupkhcarchives@gmail.com. Else Churchill Society of Genealogists direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society's library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. Registered office as above

I'm beginning to think that the land worth between 40 and 100 shillings simply had to be "possessed", regardless of tenure, although this would include someone who paid a rack rent because if he was farming the land on his own behalf he was demonstrably in possession of it. So perhaps being a Yeoman was a personal choice. The only other document referring to my man that I have seen is his Will dated 21 March 1787, and in that he describes himself as a farmer. Even this is not straightforward. The Will gives no clue as to his net worth. He might have called himself farmer because Yeoman could have signalled to the Consistory Court that to obtain Probate, his executors ought to provide a bond for a larger amount than was necessary on the face of it.

The example you cite is a rather nice example of "status inflation" common in census returns. Only after I sent my last comment I spotted that I had omitted husbandman from the list of agricultural roles. What you have said underlines the idea that whatever "legal" definition may apply (forty shilling freeholders for example), yeoman is an imprecise customary term that only suggests but does not prove that the person owned land. I suspect that someone holding land at rack rent, rather than by a lease, would be less likely to be described as yeoman. This applied to ancestors of mine, who could only hold their land at rack rent, but the lord would not grant a lease, not because of my ancestors lack of suitability, quite the reverse as the estate survey pointed out, but simply because the land was "so close to the park". He was not described as yeoman in any records I can find. On 22 December 2013 18:34:42 Colin Moretti <colin.moretti@googlemail.com> wrote: > The Oxford Companion to Local & Family History, (edited by David Hey) notes > that .... > <quote> They worked their own land but did not necessarily have to be > freeholders. ... The term had no legal precision, but was used informally > to distinguish a farmer who was more prosperous that the average > "husbandman". The wealth ... varied from region to region and over time. > <unquote> > > A bit later than the time period in question, true, and to add to the > confusion, I have a marriage certificate from 1837 where the groom > described himself as a yeoman although as far as I have been able to > determine he was never a farmer, having been born and bred in Clerkenwell > (London) where his his father was a watchmaker. At the time of the marriage > he worked in a hotel in Leicester Square and eventually had his own, first > in Leicester Place just off Leicester Square then in Gerrard Street, Soho, > now the heart of London's China Town. > > Colin > > > > On 22 December 2013 13:13:14 "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > > ... > > > > My question was how the status of Yeoman was conferred. I believe that in > > the late 17th and early 18th centuries, the qualification was an estate > > producing between 40 shillings and 100 shillings per annum, but how did > > anyone know, and was it announced? Perhaps the landowner/farmer could > > simply say "this is what my land is worth, I am therefore a Yeoman"? > > Please bear with me, I am trying. > > > > George > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

The Oxford Companion to Local & Family History, (edited by David Hey) notes that .... <quote> They worked their own land but did not necessarily have to be freeholders. ... The term had no legal precision, but was used informally to distinguish a farmer who was more prosperous that the average "husbandman". The wealth ... varied from region to region and over time. <unquote> A bit later than the time period in question, true, and to add to the confusion, I have a marriage certificate from 1837 where the groom described himself as a yeoman although as far as I have been able to determine he was never a farmer, having been born and bred in Clerkenwell (London) where his his father was a watchmaker. At the time of the marriage he worked in a hotel in Leicester Square and eventually had his own, first in Leicester Place just off Leicester Square then in Gerrard Street, Soho, now the heart of London's China Town. Colin > On 22 December 2013 13:13:14 "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > ... > > My question was how the status of Yeoman was conferred. I believe that in > the late 17th and early 18th centuries, the qualification was an estate > producing between 40 shillings and 100 shillings per annum, but how did > anyone know, and was it announced? Perhaps the landowner/farmer could > simply say "this is what my land is worth, I am therefore a Yeoman"? > Please bear with me, I am trying. > > George > >

Cannot contribute to the yeoman argument too far, except to suggest that although how someone described themselves (say) on a census or other document may be a little flexible, with people inflating their role if they could get away with it, the enumerator commonly was a local parish official of some kind, so there was a degree of restraint on fantasy. If the date was after 1803, when schedule A tax on land and property more or less as we would recognise it was introduced, the value of land would possibly be known to these officials, but the trend in census returns and other paperwork, such as marriage records was to inflate your status a little. See http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/history/index.htm for some history of income taxes. Many years ago I was taught by a family history course, that the range of agricultural occupations was: Agricultural labourer - hired hand not living on the land he worked. Often casual, or itinerant. Farm servant - hired hand with accommodation provided on or by the farm. Usually "permanent" - but essentially annual. Farmer - man working land he rents or leases (and so takes responsibility for its management), whether employing hands or not. Yeoman - man working 'his own' land. A yeoman would be concerned with the business, but may not have to get up before dawn if he had men to do that. The only definition I can find is the OED one that others have cited, owning free land with an annual value exceeding forty shillings. The volunteer forces with yeomanry in the name were raised from the yeomanry,and I can only assume this was one of the duties that balanced the rights (voting for instance) that came with such great wealth. According to the national archives £2 in 1800 would be worth £64 in 2005. Not a fortune. I think a person with no agricultural interest but renting out land to others would be a landlord, but some would say gentleman. On 22 December 2013 13:13:14 "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- From: Tim Powys-Lybbe > Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 7:11 PM > To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Yeomen > > On 21 Dec at 12:19, "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > Tim The marriage licence was dated 18 June 1742 and other records show > > that William Bush was a farmer although I have yet to discover how and > > when he acquired his lands. Hope this helps. > > Sorry to be difficult, but you have not included the relevant parts of > the original exchange in your reply. The way this is normally done is > as above with a line to indicate who said what and a number of chevrons > on the left of the what for what they said. Many mail programs will do > all this automatically for you, as does mine. And you should delete > from your reply all that is not relevant. > > So I don't know what had preceded your paragraph above! > ------------------------- > Tim. > Unfortunately, I have no idea whether Windows Live Mail has the facility > you refer to and I can find no reference to it in the Help sections. > My question was how the status of Yeoman was conferred. I believe that in > the late 17th and early 18th centuries, the qualification was an estate > producing between 40 shillings and 100 shillings per annum, but how did > anyone know, and was it announced? Perhaps the landowner/farmer could > simply say "this is what my land is worth, I am therefore a Yeoman"? > Please bear with me, I am trying. > > George > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

On Sat, 2013-12-21 at 12:19 +0000, bush.lyme wrote: > The marriage licence was dated 18 June 1742 and other records show > that > William Bush was a farmer although I have yet to discover how and when > he > acquired his lands. Hope this helps. I don't think you should assume that he owned land. I have plenty of Nottinghamshire "yeomen" in my tree from that sort of period and earlier and they were practically all copyholders, not freeholders. It's quite likely that your man was a copyholder or tenant farmer, a rank above husbandman.

-----Original Message----- From: Tim Powys-Lybbe Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 7:11 PM To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Yeomen On 21 Dec at 12:19, "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > Tim The marriage licence was dated 18 June 1742 and other records show > that William Bush was a farmer although I have yet to discover how and > when he acquired his lands. Hope this helps. Sorry to be difficult, but you have not included the relevant parts of the original exchange in your reply. The way this is normally done is as above with a line to indicate who said what and a number of chevrons on the left of the what for what they said. Many mail programs will do all this automatically for you, as does mine. And you should delete from your reply all that is not relevant. So I don't know what had preceded your paragraph above! ------------------------- Tim. Unfortunately, I have no idea whether Windows Live Mail has the facility you refer to and I can find no reference to it in the Help sections. My question was how the status of Yeoman was conferred. I believe that in the late 17th and early 18th centuries, the qualification was an estate producing between 40 shillings and 100 shillings per annum, but how did anyone know, and was it announced? Perhaps the landowner/farmer could simply say "this is what my land is worth, I am therefore a Yeoman"? Please bear with me, I am trying. George

On 21 Dec at 12:19, "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > Tim The marriage licence was dated 18 June 1742 and other records show > that William Bush was a farmer although I have yet to discover how and > when he acquired his lands. Hope this helps. Sorry to be difficult, but you have not included the relevant parts of the original exchange in your reply. The way this is normally done is as above with a line to indicate who said what and a number of chevrons on the left of the what for what they said. Many mail programs will do all this automatically for you, as does mine. And you should delete from your reply all that is not relevant. So I don't know what had preceded your paragraph above! -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Tim The marriage licence was dated 18 June 1742 and other records show that William Bush was a farmer although I have yet to discover how and when he acquired his lands. Hope this helps. Regards George Bush

On 20 Dec at 23:43, "bush.lyme" <bush.lyme@ntlworld.com> wrote: > One of my ancestors was described as a Yeoman, of Woodborough, > Nottinghamshire, when he applied for a licence to marry his first > wife. As far as I can tell, his father was a tailor, so I am wondering > who decided and when, he owned sufficient land to be designated > yeoman. Or was it simply taken for granted from what local people > knew of his affairs? I can imagine a conversation including "That > William Bush has lands in Oxton as well as Woodborough; all told, they > must be worth at least 60 shillings a year." Since being a yeoman > could carry military obligations, would it have been possible to > decline the status? Can you give us a date, even a rough one, as the meaning of yeoman changed with time, as did a lot of other such status descriptions? Further, unlike Knights and peers, these designations were very fluid, that was the charm of English society, people could move up and down with their abilities. Look at Thomas Cromwell, for instance, the subject of a marvellous biographical novel, trilogy even. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

One of my ancestors was described as a Yeoman, of Woodborough, Nottinghamshire, when he applied for a licence to marry his first wife. As far as I can tell, his father was a tailor, so I am wondering who decided and when, he owned sufficient land to be designated yeoman. Or was it simply taken for granted from what local people knew of his affairs? I can imagine a conversation including "That William Bush has lands in Oxton as well as Woodborough; all told, they must be worth at least 60 shillings a year." Since being a yeoman could carry military obligations, would it have been possible to decline the status? George Bush

Strathclyde University has asked that I draw the following new group to the attention of SoG Members. Please feel free to post on other lists. If anyone goes I'd be interested to learn more - Else Churchill Please can you make your members aware about the founding of a new group in Scotland focusing on the use of DNA in genealogy. Our website can be found at www.gendnascotland.wordpress.com The founding meeting of the DNA Interest Group for Scotland is taking place at the University of Strathclyde on 18 January 2014. The meeting is open to anyone who has experience or an interest in using DNA for genealogical or family history research. Its goal is to establish a forum for: - sharing and comparing results of research in genetic genealogy encouraging the use of genetic genealogy within the British Isles with a particular focus on Scotland (anyone within reach of Glasgow is welcome to attend) - administrators of DNA surname, geographical and haplogroup projects to exchange ideas on project management and interpreting results helping people who have taken genetic DNA tests to make sense of their test results and what they might mean for their genealogical research Further details and a working agenda will be posted on our website at www.gendnascotland.wordpress.com in due course. Please contact genDNAscotland@gmail.com for further information or to register an interest in attending. Best regards, Alasdair Macdonald **************************************************************************** ********************* Alasdair Macdonald Genealogical Studies Postgraduate Programme The Centre for Lifelong Learning Graham Hills Building 40 George Street University of Strathclyde Glasgow, G1 1QE Else Churchill Society of Genealogists direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society's library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. Registered office as above

Hi and many thanks to everyone who replied, I'm really grateful for your suggestions. Peter - I have commissioned a FH researcher to go and have a look for me at WO120 as it looks more promising than anything else I've come across. William may not have been alive in 1841 as I can't find any mention of him on any census. If I come up trumps, I will let you all know. I think you all might guess what my Christmas wish to Santa is? A very Happy Christmas to you all, and a healthy New Year. Theresa ----------------------------- This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. ----------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of sog-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 20 December 2013 08:01 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: SOG-UK Digest, Vol 8, Issue 196 Today's Topics: 1. Query re Pension Records (Blair Southerden) 2. Re: Query re Pension Records (Theresa Green) 3. Re: Query re Pension Records (Peter Bennett) 4. Mick Mason's (Else Churchill) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:59:33 +0000 From: Blair Southerden <blairsou@globalnet.co.uk> Subject: [SOG-UK] Query re Pension Records To: "t.green@britglass.co.uk" <t.green@britglass.co.uk>, SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <0CDF2416-3F6E-485B-B091-0A04C68EB5AC@globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Theresa The 25th Foot later became the King's Own Scottish Borderers which has now amalgamated to become one of the battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. I think it is unlikely that their museum will have details of his service, these records were typically destroyed when a soldier was discharged. However, pension records do exist, for out Pensioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea and may be found online at Find My Past. There is also ongoing correspondence about the family name Tennant on an email forum for the Dales Family History Group which covers the dales area of North Yorkshire. See www.upperdalesfhg.org.uk Best regards Blair ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:06:39 +0000 From: Theresa Green <t.green@britglass.co.uk> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Query re Pension Records To: Blair Southerden <blairsou@globalnet.co.uk>, "SOG-UK@rootsweb.com" <SOG-UK@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <539E4B1DFA57C84D98F67C65DD406DC1C65CAE@BGSERVER.glass.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Many thanks Blair - I've actually got a copy of his Chelsea Pension record from "findmypast" - which tells me he was entitled to a pension, and not much more. I am trying to ascertain the town/village he drew his pension from and when it ceased to be paid. I also have details from the KOSB museum as to which conflicts he served in, but although they do have full records for many of these old soldiers, including attestation papers etc, they don't have William's as they didn't start collecting that information until about 6 months after William signed up in 1789. I will join the "forum" and see if I can have a look what they have there, and thanks for that. Your time is really appreciated. Thank you. Theresa ----------------------------- This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. ----------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Blair Southerden [mailto:blairsou@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: 19 December 2013 11:00 To: Theresa Green; SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: Query re Pension Records Theresa The 25th Foot later became the King's Own Scottish Borderers which has now amalgamated to become one of the battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. I think it is unlikely that their museum will have details of his service, these records were typically destroyed when a soldier was discharged. However, pension records do exist, for out Pensioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea and may be found online at Find My Past. There is also ongoing correspondence about the family name Tennant on an email forum for the Dales Family History Group which covers the dales area of North Yorkshire. See www.upperdalesfhg.org.uk Best regards Blair ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 12:29:37 +0000 From: Peter Bennett <pkbennett@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Query re Pension Records To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CAAJawuYwuYwGtBOyUTyz=62ZaYmhWtEhKdFA-BjSDSxn4SpnEQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Theresa, What you need are the Regimental Registers in WO120, which run to 1857. They are duplicated and extended to 1876 in WO23. Either is likely to give you an idea where a pensioner is living. There are also District Pension Returns in WO22, 1842 to 1862, but these are arranged by pension district. Good luck. Peter Bennett On 19 December 2013 11:06, Theresa Green <t.green@britglass.co.uk> wrote: > > Many thanks Blair - I've actually got a copy of his Chelsea Pension > record from "findmypast" - which tells me he was entitled to a > pension, and not much more. I am trying to ascertain the town/village > he drew his pension from and when it ceased to be paid. I also have > details from the KOSB museum as to which conflicts he served in, but > although they do have full records for many of these old soldiers, > including attestation papers etc, they don't have William's as they didn't start collecting that information > until about 6 months after William signed up in 1789. I will join the > "forum" and see if I can have a look what they have there, and thanks > for that. Your time is really appreciated. Thank you. > Theresa > > > > ----------------------------- > > This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use > of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes > a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby > notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this > message, or files associated with this message, is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify > us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your > computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. > > > Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or > error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, > arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept > responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this > message, or > any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If > verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent those of the company. > > ----------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Blair Southerden [mailto:blairsou@globalnet.co.uk] > Sent: 19 December 2013 11:00 > To: Theresa Green; SOG-UK@rootsweb.com > Subject: Query re Pension Records > > Theresa > > The 25th Foot later became the King's Own Scottish Borderers which has now > amalgamated to become one of the battalions of the Royal Regiment of > Scotland. I think it is unlikely that their museum will have details of his > service, these records were typically destroyed when a soldier was > discharged. However, pension records do exist, for out Pensioners of the > Royal Hospital, Chelsea and may be found online at Find My Past. > > There is also ongoing correspondence about the family name Tennant on an > email forum for the Dales Family History Group which covers the dales area > of North Yorkshire. See www.upperdalesfhg.org.uk > > Best regards > > Blair > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 17:43:28 -0000 From: "Else Churchill" <genealogy@sog.org.uk> Subject: [SOG-UK] Mick Mason's To: <sog-uk@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <00bc01cefce1$d3e98220$7bbc8660$@sog.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" ?----- A funeral service for Mick Mason will take place on 30 December 2013 12:00 midday at Breakspear Crematorium Breakspear Rd, Ruislip, Middlesex HA4 7SJ (https://goo.gl/maps/g70Cu) Instead of flowers a donation to Cancer UK would be preferred. Mick was a humanist and in respect of his beliefs there will be no gathering afterwards. Just remember him as the friend he was A good friend of ours and great friend of the family history community Mick Mason has sadly passed away after a battle with cancer. He was 65. Mick spent many years behind the counter of the Society of Genealogists bookstall at many family history fairs up and down the country with long time friend Tom.... After this time Mick and Tom joined with S and N Genealogy and presented their wares at these family history events. His efforts for both organisations and with his local family history societies was very much appreciated. He will be missed by many. All of our thoughts are with Tom in this difficult time. Else Churchill Society of Genealogists direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society?s library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. 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----- A funeral service for Mick Mason will take place on 30 December 2013 12:00 midday at Breakspear Crematorium Breakspear Rd, Ruislip, Middlesex HA4 7SJ (https://goo.gl/maps/g70Cu) Instead of flowers a donation to Cancer UK would be preferred. Mick was a humanist and in respect of his beliefs there will be no gathering afterwards. Just remember him as the friend he was A good friend of ours and great friend of the family history community Mick Mason has sadly passed away after a battle with cancer. He was 65. Mick spent many years behind the counter of the Society of Genealogists bookstall at many family history fairs up and down the country with long time friend Tom.... After this time Mick and Tom joined with S and N Genealogy and presented their wares at these family history events. His efforts for both organisations and with his local family history societies was very much appreciated. He will be missed by many. All of our thoughts are with Tom in this difficult time. Else Churchill Society of Genealogists direct phone 020 7702 5488 visit the Society of Genealogists' Website <http://www.sog.org.uk/> www.sog.org.uk WOULD YOU LIKE ADVICE ON YOUR FAMILY HISTORY? >From beginners onwards: all queries and problems welcomed. Phone our dedicated family history advice line on 020 7490 8911 Thursdays 6pm - 7.45 pm; Saturdays 11 am - 1pm and 2pm - 4 pm The Society also runs regular one-to-one advice half hour advice sessions with experts at the Society’s library on alternate Saturdays from 2pm. Telephone the library direct on 020 7702 5485 to book an advice session or library tour. This email and any attachments are confidential and intended for the addressee only. You must not use, disclose, reproduce, copy or distribute the contents of this communication unless explicitly permitted to do so. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system without further distribution or use. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message and attachments that do not relate to the official business of The Society of Genealogists are neither given nor endorsed by it. Registered Charity No. 233701. Company limited by guarantee. Registered No. 115703. Registered office as above

Theresa, What you need are the Regimental Registers in WO120, which run to 1857. They are duplicated and extended to 1876 in WO23. Either is likely to give you an idea where a pensioner is living. There are also District Pension Returns in WO22, 1842 to 1862, but these are arranged by pension district. Good luck. Peter Bennett On 19 December 2013 11:06, Theresa Green <t.green@britglass.co.uk> wrote: > > Many thanks Blair - I've actually got a copy of his Chelsea Pension record > from "findmypast" - which tells me he was entitled to a pension, and not > much more. I am trying to ascertain the town/village he drew his pension > from and when it ceased to be paid. I also have details from the KOSB > museum as to which conflicts he served in, but although they do have full > records for many of these old soldiers, including attestation papers etc, > they don't have William's as they didn't start collecting that information > until about 6 months after William signed up in 1789. I will join the > "forum" and see if I can have a look what they have there, and thanks for > that. Your time is really appreciated. Thank you. > Theresa > > > > ----------------------------- > > This message (and any associated files) is > intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is > addressed > and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or > constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are > hereby > notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, > or > files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have > received > this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the > message > and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be > monitored. > > > Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or > error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, > arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept > responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this > message, or > any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If > verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or > opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent those of the company. > > ----------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Blair Southerden [mailto:blairsou@globalnet.co.uk] > Sent: 19 December 2013 11:00 > To: Theresa Green; SOG-UK@rootsweb.com > Subject: Query re Pension Records > > Theresa > > The 25th Foot later became the King's Own Scottish Borderers which has now > amalgamated to become one of the battalions of the Royal Regiment of > Scotland. I think it is unlikely that their museum will have details of his > service, these records were typically destroyed when a soldier was > discharged. However, pension records do exist, for out Pensioners of the > Royal Hospital, Chelsea and may be found online at Find My Past. > > There is also ongoing correspondence about the family name Tennant on an > email forum for the Dales Family History Group which covers the dales area > of North Yorkshire. See www.upperdalesfhg.org.uk > > Best regards > > Blair > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Many thanks Blair - I've actually got a copy of his Chelsea Pension record from "findmypast" - which tells me he was entitled to a pension, and not much more. I am trying to ascertain the town/village he drew his pension from and when it ceased to be paid. I also have details from the KOSB museum as to which conflicts he served in, but although they do have full records for many of these old soldiers, including attestation papers etc, they don't have William's as they didn't start collecting that information until about 6 months after William signed up in 1789. I will join the "forum" and see if I can have a look what they have there, and thanks for that. Your time is really appreciated. Thank you. Theresa ----------------------------- This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. ----------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Blair Southerden [mailto:blairsou@globalnet.co.uk] Sent: 19 December 2013 11:00 To: Theresa Green; SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: Query re Pension Records Theresa The 25th Foot later became the King's Own Scottish Borderers which has now amalgamated to become one of the battalions of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. I think it is unlikely that their museum will have details of his service, these records were typically destroyed when a soldier was discharged. However, pension records do exist, for out Pensioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea and may be found online at Find My Past. There is also ongoing correspondence about the family name Tennant on an email forum for the Dales Family History Group which covers the dales area of North Yorkshire. See www.upperdalesfhg.org.uk Best regards Blair