Thank you Caroline. I shall follow those links. At least I know the address I am looking for. Christopher Richards On 23/02/2014 22:04, Caroline Gurney wrote: > Christopher, > > There was a national census taken in France every 5 years from 1836 to 1936 > (with a couple of wartime exceptions). For the most part it is not indexed. > The following links give more details: > > http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2013/04/upper-alsace-and-an-index-to-the-census-of-1836.html > > http://genealogy.about.com/od/france/a/french_ancestry_5.htm > > https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/France_Census > > I had to smile at the statement in the Family Search Wiki that: "Because > French censuses are not indexed, it is not easy to find a name in them". > Some of us remember when searching the census meant doing it the hard way > in Portugal Street. > > Caroline > > Caroline Gurney > [image: Caroline Gurney's Visual > Thumbprint]<https://www.vizify.com/es/5025c0a448d185000200004f> > > > On 23 February 2014 20:03, genealogy <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > > Thank you Caroline for that hint. It enabled me to find the death > registration of an xgreat aunt who died in Versailles in 1865. As always > one answer leads to a new question. In this case a son in law who is new to > me. So did the French have censuses - and have they survived? Or are there > any other ways I might discover which of her many daughters was he married > to! > > Christopher Richards > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 23 Feb 2014, at 17:48, Caroline Gurney < > caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >> Don, >> >> After sending my previous message I read the home page of the Departmental >> Archives for Indre-et-Loire. You are in luck - civil registration of >> births, marriages and deaths went online three weeks ago: >> http://archives.cg37.fr/Actualite.php?theme=2&idactualite=240. The French >> Genealogy Blog entry has obviously not yet been updated to reflect this. >> >> Caroline >> >> Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> >> >> >> On 23 February 2014 17:32, Caroline Gurney < > caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk >>> wrote: >> The French Genealogy Blog: >> http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogieis my first stop for >> answers to questions like this. Down the left hand >> side of the page are links to the websites of the Departmental Archives. >> Wikipedia tells me that Tours is in the Department of Indre-et-Loire. The >> French Genealogy Blog gives a link to the Departmental Archives of >> Indre-et-Loire: http://archives.cg37.fr/index_archive.php and states >> that: "Parish >> registers have just gone up! Also: Ten-year indices, land records, old > post >> cards and records of wills filed (Tables de successions - very useful, >> these), military conscription lists." Civil registrations are not >> mentioned, so it would seem those are not yet online for Indre-et-Loire, >> but you would need to check the Departmental Website. >> >> I have had excellent results using the online archives of Ille-et-Vilaine, >> to which I found a link from The French Genealogy Blog. The civil >> registration entry for my 2x great grandfather's death in Dinard was >> extremely informative, including details of his son and widow. The latter >> was his third wife and I would never otherwise have known that she > existed. >> I subsequently found that she was English and that he had sneaked back to >> London to marry her, despite being wanted by the police. (See >> > http://cmgurney.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/black-sheep-sunday-rev-frederick-davis.htmlfor >> the back story.) >> >> You will obviously need a good working knowledge of French to negotiate > the >> website of the Departmental Archives and the records themselves. Good luck >> with your search! >> >> Caroline >> >> Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> >> >> >> On 23 February 2014 16:39, Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> wrote: >> >> Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I >> might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said >> to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? >> Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there >> too many clustered round that city!? >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Christopher, There was a national census taken in France every 5 years from 1836 to 1936 (with a couple of wartime exceptions). For the most part it is not indexed. The following links give more details: http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2013/04/upper-alsace-and-an-index-to-the-census-of-1836.html http://genealogy.about.com/od/france/a/french_ancestry_5.htm https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/France_Census I had to smile at the statement in the Family Search Wiki that: "Because French censuses are not indexed, it is not easy to find a name in them". Some of us remember when searching the census meant doing it the hard way in Portugal Street. Caroline Caroline Gurney [image: Caroline Gurney's Visual Thumbprint]<https://www.vizify.com/es/5025c0a448d185000200004f> On 23 February 2014 20:03, genealogy <cmr1ch6rd7@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: Thank you Caroline for that hint. It enabled me to find the death registration of an xgreat aunt who died in Versailles in 1865. As always one answer leads to a new question. In this case a son in law who is new to me. So did the French have censuses - and have they survived? Or are there any other ways I might discover which of her many daughters was he married to! Christopher Richards Sent from my iPad > On 23 Feb 2014, at 17:48, Caroline Gurney < caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > > Don, > > After sending my previous message I read the home page of the Departmental > Archives for Indre-et-Loire. You are in luck - civil registration of > births, marriages and deaths went online three weeks ago: > http://archives.cg37.fr/Actualite.php?theme=2&idactualite=240. The French > Genealogy Blog entry has obviously not yet been updated to reflect this. > > Caroline > > Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> > > > On 23 February 2014 17:32, Caroline Gurney < caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk >> wrote: > > The French Genealogy Blog: > http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogieis my first stop for > answers to questions like this. Down the left hand > side of the page are links to the websites of the Departmental Archives. > Wikipedia tells me that Tours is in the Department of Indre-et-Loire. The > French Genealogy Blog gives a link to the Departmental Archives of > Indre-et-Loire: http://archives.cg37.fr/index_archive.php and states > that: "Parish > registers have just gone up! Also: Ten-year indices, land records, old post > cards and records of wills filed (Tables de successions - very useful, > these), military conscription lists." Civil registrations are not > mentioned, so it would seem those are not yet online for Indre-et-Loire, > but you would need to check the Departmental Website. > > I have had excellent results using the online archives of Ille-et-Vilaine, > to which I found a link from The French Genealogy Blog. The civil > registration entry for my 2x great grandfather's death in Dinard was > extremely informative, including details of his son and widow. The latter > was his third wife and I would never otherwise have known that she existed. > I subsequently found that she was English and that he had sneaked back to > London to marry her, despite being wanted by the police. (See > http://cmgurney.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/black-sheep-sunday-rev-frederick-davis.htmlfor > the back story.) > > You will obviously need a good working knowledge of French to negotiate the > website of the Departmental Archives and the records themselves. Good luck > with your search! > > Caroline > > Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> > > > On 23 February 2014 16:39, Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> wrote: > > Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I > might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said > to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? > Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there > too many clustered round that city!? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Caroline for that hint. It enabled me to find the death registration of an xgreat aunt who died in Versailles in 1865. As always one answer leads to a new question. In this case a son in law who is new to me. So did the French have censuses - and have they survived? Or are there any other ways I might discover which of her many daughters was he married to! Christopher Richards Sent from my iPad > On 23 Feb 2014, at 17:48, Caroline Gurney <caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > > Don, > > After sending my previous message I read the home page of the Departmental > Archives for Indre-et-Loire. You are in luck - civil registration of > births, marriages and deaths went online three weeks ago: > http://archives.cg37.fr/Actualite.php?theme=2&idactualite=240. The French > Genealogy Blog entry has obviously not yet been updated to reflect this. > > Caroline > > Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> > > > On 23 February 2014 17:32, Caroline Gurney <caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk >> wrote: > > The French Genealogy Blog: > http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogieis my first stop for > answers to questions like this. Down the left hand > side of the page are links to the websites of the Departmental Archives. > Wikipedia tells me that Tours is in the Department of Indre-et-Loire. The > French Genealogy Blog gives a link to the Departmental Archives of > Indre-et-Loire: http://archives.cg37.fr/index_archive.php and states > that: "Parish > registers have just gone up! Also: Ten-year indices, land records, old post > cards and records of wills filed (Tables de successions - very useful, > these), military conscription lists." Civil registrations are not > mentioned, so it would seem those are not yet online for Indre-et-Loire, > but you would need to check the Departmental Website. > > I have had excellent results using the online archives of Ille-et-Vilaine, > to which I found a link from The French Genealogy Blog. The civil > registration entry for my 2x great grandfather's death in Dinard was > extremely informative, including details of his son and widow. The latter > was his third wife and I would never otherwise have known that she existed. > I subsequently found that she was English and that he had sneaked back to > London to marry her, despite being wanted by the police. (See > http://cmgurney.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/black-sheep-sunday-rev-frederick-davis.htmlfor > the back story.) > > You will obviously need a good working knowledge of French to negotiate the > website of the Departmental Archives and the records themselves. Good luck > with your search! > > Caroline > > Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> > > > On 23 February 2014 16:39, Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> wrote: > > Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I > might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said > to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? > Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there > too many clustered round that city!? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Don, Civil registration records for Tours are online.   http://cg37.oxyd.net/   First, access the 10-year indexes by selecting “Collection des tables décennales de l’état civil numerisées”. Select the appropriate decade, and click the icon “Accès au Document Numérisé” -- Décès (Deaths). The images are browsable, but not searchable.   If you find an entry of interest, note the day and month. To access the entry in the death register, return to the above link, then select “Collection des registres d’état civil numérisés”, and drill down through the registers to find the relevant date.   The process is cumbersome but can be worthwhile, as French civil registration often provides a great deal more information than English.   HTH   Judy London, UK ________________________________ From: Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2014, 16:39 Subject: [SOG-UK] Death & Burial in Tours, France, 1850s Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there too many clustered round that city!? 

Don, After sending my previous message I read the home page of the Departmental Archives for Indre-et-Loire. You are in luck - civil registration of births, marriages and deaths went online three weeks ago: http://archives.cg37.fr/Actualite.php?theme=2&idactualite=240. The French Genealogy Blog entry has obviously not yet been updated to reflect this. Caroline Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> On 23 February 2014 17:32, Caroline Gurney <caroline.gurney@blueyonder.co.uk > wrote: The French Genealogy Blog: http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogieis my first stop for answers to questions like this. Down the left hand side of the page are links to the websites of the Departmental Archives. Wikipedia tells me that Tours is in the Department of Indre-et-Loire. The French Genealogy Blog gives a link to the Departmental Archives of Indre-et-Loire: http://archives.cg37.fr/index_archive.php and states that: "Parish registers have just gone up! Also: Ten-year indices, land records, old post cards and records of wills filed (Tables de successions - very useful, these), military conscription lists." Civil registrations are not mentioned, so it would seem those are not yet online for Indre-et-Loire, but you would need to check the Departmental Website. I have had excellent results using the online archives of Ille-et-Vilaine, to which I found a link from The French Genealogy Blog. The civil registration entry for my 2x great grandfather's death in Dinard was extremely informative, including details of his son and widow. The latter was his third wife and I would never otherwise have known that she existed. I subsequently found that she was English and that he had sneaked back to London to marry her, despite being wanted by the police. (See http://cmgurney.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/black-sheep-sunday-rev-frederick-davis.htmlfor the back story.) You will obviously need a good working knowledge of French to negotiate the website of the Departmental Archives and the records themselves. Good luck with your search! Caroline Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> On 23 February 2014 16:39, Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> wrote: Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there too many clustered round that city!?

The French Genealogy Blog: http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogieis my first stop for answers to questions like this. Down the left hand side of the page are links to the websites of the Departmental Archives. Wikipedia tells me that Tours is in the Department of Indre-et-Loire. The French Genealogy Blog gives a link to the Departmental Archives of Indre-et-Loire: http://archives.cg37.fr/index_archive.php and states that: "Parish registers have just gone up! Also: Ten-year indices, land records, old post cards and records of wills filed (Tables de successions - very useful, these), military conscription lists." Civil registrations are not mentioned, so it would seem those are not yet online for Indre-et-Loire, but you would need to check the Departmental Website. I have had excellent results using the online archives of Ille-et-Vilaine, to which I found a link from The French Genealogy Blog. The civil registration entry for my 2x great grandfather's death in Dinard was extremely informative, including details of his son and widow. The latter was his third wife and I would never otherwise have known that she existed. I subsequently found that she was English and that he had sneaked back to London to marry her, despite being wanted by the police. (See http://cmgurney.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/black-sheep-sunday-rev-frederick-davis.htmlfor the back story.) You will obviously need a good working knowledge of French to negotiate the website of the Departmental Archives and the records themselves. Good luck with your search! Caroline Caroline Gurney <http://www.carolinegurney.com> On 23 February 2014 16:39, Don Montague <don.montague@virgin.net> wrote: Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there too many clustered round that city!?

Can anyone point me in the right direction, i.e. suggest where I might start looking for the records of the death of a kinsman, said to have taken place in Tours in the 1850s? Would it be worthwhile writing to the Mairie at Tours - or are there too many clustered round that city!?

Perhaps the Corporation of Newbury contributed to the voyage or provision of the 'Northington' and the bowls were John Sealy's acknowledgement and thanks for their help? From Merryl Wells of Luton, Beds. E-Mail: merryl.wells@one-name.org GOONS Mem. No. 1757 Reg. ONS: Bawtree; Gullick/ock, Moist/Moyst. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holt" <floating@talktalk.net> To: <SOG-UK@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:30 PM Subject: [SOG-UK] John Seeley and Captain Sealy > Among other bequests in his will of 1678, John SEELEY, a draper of > Newbury, > Berkshire, left money for the poor of the town. > In 1774, John SEALY, Captain of the East Indiaman Northington, presented > the > Corporation of Newbury with two painted China Bowls. > > Walter Money FSA, in his "History of Newbury" (1887), asserts that Captain > SEALY was a descendant of SEELEY the draper. > The Newbury Corporation Records confirm the Captain's gift, but make no > mention of a relationship between the two men, and so far I've failed to > discover any sons born to SEELEY the draper. No sons appear in the 1678 > will. > If Walter Money's assertion is simply a guess, and the two SEELEY's are > not > related, could anyone please suggest a reason for the Captain's gift to > the > Corporation? > > Richard Holt > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Among other bequests in his will of 1678, John SEELEY, a draper of Newbury, Berkshire, left money for the poor of the town. In 1774, John SEALY, Captain of the East Indiaman Northington, presented the Corporation of Newbury with two painted China Bowls. Walter Money FSA, in his "History of Newbury" (1887), asserts that Captain SEALY was a descendant of SEELEY the draper. The Newbury Corporation Records confirm the Captain's gift, but make no mention of a relationship between the two men, and so far I've failed to discover any sons born to SEELEY the draper. No sons appear in the 1678 will. If Walter Money's assertion is simply a guess, and the two SEELEY's are not related, could anyone please suggest a reason for the Captain's gift to the Corporation? Richard Holt

For those with Dorset ancestors, you might wish to know about a non-commercial, free-to-use website where partial transcripts of the admission records of Dorset County Hospital are being published, along with lots of other information about staff and patients. The website address is www.historydch.com Best way to receive updates on progress is to follow on Twitter @historydch Mark @ Yetminster

In addition to copyright, there are terms of use. The various websites allow you access under certain conditions. Most would not allow you to publish thier images elsewhere, even regardless of whether they own the copyright. They might agree to license you to use thier images, perhaps for a fee. Ask them directly. Put your case for how it may benefit them (e.g. attribution gives them good publicity), and justify your publication. Note, I'm not a lawyer. Sue Adams Family Folk Blog: http://familyfolklore.wordpress.com/ On 30/01/2014 22:46, Hugh Ainsley wrote: > Copyright is unfortunately a minefield. You have to remember that not > only is there the copyright associated with the original documents - ie > the paper buried deep in the TNA's basement - but there also exists > copyright associated with the copies and/or the presentation of them. > > Coyright will (probably) have expired on the ORIGINAL documents - but > we neither get to see nor to copy them - what we look at is Ancestry's > (or <whoever>'s reproduction - and even if WHAT is reproduced is > copyright free, the manner in which the reproduction is presented > carries its own copyright should the "authors" choose to exercise it. > > Simply put, if i take a photo of an Egyptian wall painting, the > original art work is most certainly out of copyright (though possibly > not free of a Mummy's Curse!) - but my photo is most certainly my > copyright, and woe betide you if you reproduce it without my > permission. > > Like i said - a minefield! > > hugh > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Keith Atkinson wrote: We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload or link  the relevant census pages onto our site to show the occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. Does anyone have experience of asking for permission to do this & is it reasonably easy to obtain  (free!). I note Keith says 'or link' .  I have always assumed that linking to something on another website does not involve any copying and therefore cannot infringe copyright.  Can anybody put me right, if I am wrong? Cedric Hoptroff

Copyright is unfortunately a minefield. You have to remember that not only is there the copyright associated with the original documents - ie the paper buried deep in the TNA's basement - but there also exists copyright associated with the copies and/or the presentation of them. Coyright will (probably) have expired on the ORIGINAL documents - but we neither get to see nor to copy them - what we look at is Ancestry's (or <whoever>'s reproduction - and even if WHAT is reproduced is copyright free, the manner in which the reproduction is presented carries its own copyright should the "authors" choose to exercise it. Simply put, if i take a photo of an Egyptian wall painting, the original art work is most certainly out of copyright (though possibly not free of a Mummy's Curse!) - but my photo is most certainly my copyright, and woe betide you if you reproduce it without my permission. Like i said - a minefield! hugh

This might seem obscure but it would probably be best to contact the National Archive as the image of the census might be copyrighted (and then licenced) If I have an antique chair at home and take a photograph of it - I own the copyright to the image (in this case a photograph) of the chair. And what we download are images of one original (which was never printed an published) -----Original Message----- From: Keith Atkinson Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 9:32 PM To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Census pages Copyright The extract from TNA's Crown Copyright statement which appears to relate to Censusses states;- "The standard duration of Crown copyright is for 50 years after the year of publication or for 125 years after creation" It does not say "whichever is the longer/shorter" but in that Censusses are created when taken would imply that Censusses up to 1881 are out of Crown Copyright & 1891 will be in 2 years time. Would it be reasonable to proceed on this basis? Keith Atkinson. Please use kandn.atkinson@gmail.com & delete kandn.atkinson@tiscali.co.uk On 30 January 2014 19:14, Karen Francis <ranaridibunda@hotmail.com> wrote: > As I am in the process of publishing a family history book (specifically > on my own family, not a generic text) this condition on Ancestry's UK site > was interesting and possibly relevant to the current query also: > > "Online or other republication of Content is prohibited except as unique > data elements that are part of a unique family history or genealogy." > > This comes under the T&A connected to the link posted earlier. This seems > to suggest that individual items are not the problem so much as the > wholesale copying and reproduction of entire sets or databases. Or am I > reading this incorrectly? > > Regards > Karen Francis > >> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:00:20 +0000 >> From: drageke@ntlworld.com >> To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Census pages Copyright >> >> The following document: >> >> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/copyright-related-rights.pdf >> >> determine if copyright still exists. Crown copyright does expire, and >> section 12 of this document provides a flow diagram for determining it. >> Based on that, I am not convinced that crown copyright still exists in >> many of the censuses. >> >> Part of this depends on the term "publication" and its interpretation in >> regard to these documents - see section 3. >> >> Note also however you are dealing with three things here, not one, all >> of which you need to assess. >> >> 1) Copyright, which can expire >> 2) Any contract you have made with the provider of the information. >> (For example Ancestry does not own copyright on the images it provides, >> but you may have made a contract with Ancestry that constrains how you >> use the information you obtain from them). >> 3) Privacy. My understanding is that this only applies if it relates >> to a living individual, which would therefore not apply to the majority >> of census records. I would suggest you reassess this however if you do >> find out that an individual is still alive. >> >> regards >> >> Keith Drage >> >> On 30/01/2014 17:45, Peter Goodey wrote: >> > On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: >> >> We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online >> >> Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload >> >> or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the >> >> occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The >> >> easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably >> >> copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. >> > This page may help. >> > >> > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown-copyright.htm >> > >> > "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and >> > without formal permission. However you must give the document reference >> > number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the >> > document. >> > >> > If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National >> > Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you >> > should >> > contact the Image Library for further advice" >> > >> > If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, >> > there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. >> > >> > I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original >> > transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc. >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The extract from TNA's Crown Copyright statement which appears to relate to Censusses states;- "The standard duration of Crown copyright is for 50 years after the year of publication or for 125 years after creation" It does not say "whichever is the longer/shorter" but in that Censusses are created when taken would imply that Censusses up to 1881 are out of Crown Copyright & 1891 will be in 2 years time. Would it be reasonable to proceed on this basis? Keith Atkinson. Please use kandn.atkinson@gmail.com & delete kandn.atkinson@tiscali.co.uk On 30 January 2014 19:14, Karen Francis <ranaridibunda@hotmail.com> wrote: > As I am in the process of publishing a family history book (specifically on my own family, not a generic text) this condition on Ancestry's UK site was interesting and possibly relevant to the current query also: > > "Online or other republication of Content is prohibited except as unique data elements that are part of a unique family history or genealogy." > > This comes under the T&A connected to the link posted earlier. This seems to suggest that individual items are not the problem so much as the wholesale copying and reproduction of entire sets or databases. Or am I reading this incorrectly? > > Regards > Karen Francis > >> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:00:20 +0000 >> From: drageke@ntlworld.com >> To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Census pages Copyright >> >> The following document: >> >> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/copyright-related-rights.pdf >> >> determine if copyright still exists. Crown copyright does expire, and >> section 12 of this document provides a flow diagram for determining it. >> Based on that, I am not convinced that crown copyright still exists in >> many of the censuses. >> >> Part of this depends on the term "publication" and its interpretation in >> regard to these documents - see section 3. >> >> Note also however you are dealing with three things here, not one, all >> of which you need to assess. >> >> 1) Copyright, which can expire >> 2) Any contract you have made with the provider of the information. >> (For example Ancestry does not own copyright on the images it provides, >> but you may have made a contract with Ancestry that constrains how you >> use the information you obtain from them). >> 3) Privacy. My understanding is that this only applies if it relates >> to a living individual, which would therefore not apply to the majority >> of census records. I would suggest you reassess this however if you do >> find out that an individual is still alive. >> >> regards >> >> Keith Drage >> >> On 30/01/2014 17:45, Peter Goodey wrote: >> > On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: >> >> We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online >> >> Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload >> >> or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the >> >> occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The >> >> easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably >> >> copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. >> > This page may help. >> > >> > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown-copyright.htm >> > >> > "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and >> > without formal permission. However you must give the document reference >> > number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the >> > document. >> > >> > If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National >> > Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you should >> > contact the Image Library for further advice" >> > >> > If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, >> > there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. >> > >> > I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original >> > transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc. >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As I am in the process of publishing a family history book (specifically on my own family, not a generic text) this condition on Ancestry's UK site was interesting and possibly relevant to the current query also: "Online or other republication of Content is prohibited except as unique data elements that are part of a unique family history or genealogy." This comes under the T&A connected to the link posted earlier. This seems to suggest that individual items are not the problem so much as the wholesale copying and reproduction of entire sets or databases. Or am I reading this incorrectly? Regards Karen Francis > Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 19:00:20 +0000 > From: drageke@ntlworld.com > To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Census pages Copyright > > The following document: > > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/copyright-related-rights.pdf > > determine if copyright still exists. Crown copyright does expire, and > section 12 of this document provides a flow diagram for determining it. > Based on that, I am not convinced that crown copyright still exists in > many of the censuses. > > Part of this depends on the term "publication" and its interpretation in > regard to these documents - see section 3. > > Note also however you are dealing with three things here, not one, all > of which you need to assess. > > 1) Copyright, which can expire > 2) Any contract you have made with the provider of the information. > (For example Ancestry does not own copyright on the images it provides, > but you may have made a contract with Ancestry that constrains how you > use the information you obtain from them). > 3) Privacy. My understanding is that this only applies if it relates > to a living individual, which would therefore not apply to the majority > of census records. I would suggest you reassess this however if you do > find out that an individual is still alive. > > regards > > Keith Drage > > On 30/01/2014 17:45, Peter Goodey wrote: > > On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: > >> We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online > >> Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload > >> or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the > >> occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The > >> easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably > >> copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. > > This page may help. > > > > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown-copyright.htm > > > > "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and > > without formal permission. However you must give the document reference > > number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the > > document. > > > > If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National > > Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you should > > contact the Image Library for further advice" > > > > If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, > > there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. > > > > I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original > > transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The following document: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information-management/copyright-related-rights.pdf determine if copyright still exists. Crown copyright does expire, and section 12 of this document provides a flow diagram for determining it. Based on that, I am not convinced that crown copyright still exists in many of the censuses. Part of this depends on the term "publication" and its interpretation in regard to these documents - see section 3. Note also however you are dealing with three things here, not one, all of which you need to assess. 1) Copyright, which can expire 2) Any contract you have made with the provider of the information. (For example Ancestry does not own copyright on the images it provides, but you may have made a contract with Ancestry that constrains how you use the information you obtain from them). 3) Privacy. My understanding is that this only applies if it relates to a living individual, which would therefore not apply to the majority of census records. I would suggest you reassess this however if you do find out that an individual is still alive. regards Keith Drage On 30/01/2014 17:45, Peter Goodey wrote: > On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: >> We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online >> Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload >> or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the >> occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The >> easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably >> copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. > This page may help. > > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown-copyright.htm > > "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and > without formal permission. However you must give the document reference > number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the > document. > > If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National > Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you should > contact the Image Library for further advice" > > If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, > there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. > > I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original > transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The commercial companies don't, I think, own the copyright to the digital images - after all these are just scans of TNA's microfilms (except for the 1911 census where there is only one set of official images). But when you use a commercial site you are bound by its terms and conditions, which will almost certainly limit re-use of the material. If you have access to Ancestry, there is way to do it without asking permission from anyone or bothering about any terms and conditions: Ancestry has a 'share this record' option -it places the census image in a publicly accessible location and gives you a link to tell you where it is, a link which you can share with anyone. I've no idea precisely how long such pages remain visible, i.e. how long the URL remains valid, but in my experience it is at least several months. Here's an example: http://sharing.ancestry.co.uk/3640213?h=37a526 Peter -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter Goodey Sent: 30 January 2014 17:45 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Census pages Copyright On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: > We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online > Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload > or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the > occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The > easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably > copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. This page may help. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown -copyright.htm "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and without formal permission. However you must give the document reference number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the document. If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you should contact the Image Library for further advice" If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3684/7045 - Release Date: 01/30/14

On Thu, 2014-01-30 at 14:08 +0000, Keith Atkinson wrote: > We are a not-for-profit Local Amenity Society compiling an online > Directory of historic buildings in our area. We would like to upload > or link the relevant census pages onto our site to show the > occupants/occupations etc of these buildings over the decades The > easiest way is to use the TNA Census pages. These are presumably > copyrighted but of course widely available online and at TNA. This page may help. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/crown-copyright.htm "You may quote or transcribe from Crown copyright documents freely and without formal permission. However you must give the document reference number and acknowledge The National Archives as custodian of the document. If you wish to publish an image of a document held at The National Archives (including readers' own photographs of records) then you should contact the Image Library for further advice" If you want to display images downloaded from a commercial company, there may be other copyright issues which you'll have to explore. I suspect that transcriptions would have to be your own original transcriptions and not copied from Ancestry or FMP etc.

Small correction to this. The RAOGK group in the Guild of One Name Studies organisation is not the one in question. I was referring to that run from the USA. Peter Amsden On 30 Jan 2014, at 16:09, Peter Amsden wrote: > Some members may find this of interest. A fairly new, to me, site that in many respects replaces the now defunct RAOGK (Random Acts of Genealogical KIndness) one. > > They can be found at: > > http://gengathering.com/ > > US based, but they have no desire to keep it to that continent. > > Peter Amsden > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message