Thank you, Carolyn, April On 27 Feb 2014, at 22:14, Carolyn McCartney wrote: > April > > There are plenty of French bmds and 'census' (resencements) available online > but all the ones I have looked at so far are not indexed so it is a question > of trawling through them all year by year! When you do find the one you are > looking for though there is often a lot of extra information given. > > I don't know which 'departmental archives' you want to look for but have a > look at: > http://en.geneanet.org/first-step/search-your-french-ancestors/online-depart > mental-archives which explains how their records are organised and gives you > links to them all. > > I have spent many an hour scouring the Oise archives with fantastic results. > My French is not great but with a little help from Google translate, you can > get by! > > I cannot tell you about WW1 records as I have not looked for any French ones > before. > > I hope this helps a little. > > Carolyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Ashton April > Sent: 27 February 2014 20:27 > To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SOG-UK] France > > Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on > line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? > > Thank you, > April Wood Ashton > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Judith April On 27 Feb 2014, at 22:06, JUDITH wrote: > Many departments have actual images on line and most are free. Here is a summary of what's available, in French but easily figured out or translated: > http://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Archives_en_ligne > > There are also pay sites www.geneanet.org with many user-submitted family trees, and genealogie.com. > > > Judith Werner > Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashton April" <ahashton@focalplane.com> > To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 1:26:51 PM > Subject: [SOG-UK] France > > Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? > > Thank you, > April Wood Ashton > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Having just gone back into Scotlands People (and > found "en passant" that > my 84 credits had expired - drat!) ...but happily, they are revived when you buy more credits! Adrian -- Adrian Bishop-Laggett London, England

April You could also try the WiKi on family search https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Main_Page there are many tips about French research as well as what is available via the LDS church You could also try Cyndi's List http://cyndislist.com/ Regards John Hanson -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of JUDITH Sent: 27 February 2014 22:06 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] France Many departments have actual images on line and most are free. Here is a summary of what's available, in French but easily figured out or translated: http://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Archives_en_ligne There are also pay sites www.geneanet.org with many user-submitted family trees, and genealogie.com. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashton April" <ahashton@focalplane.com> To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 1:26:51 PM Subject: [SOG-UK] France Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? Thank you, April Wood Ashton ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

April There are plenty of French bmds and 'census' (resencements) available online but all the ones I have looked at so far are not indexed so it is a question of trawling through them all year by year! When you do find the one you are looking for though there is often a lot of extra information given. I don't know which 'departmental archives' you want to look for but have a look at: http://en.geneanet.org/first-step/search-your-french-ancestors/online-depart mental-archives which explains how their records are organised and gives you links to them all. I have spent many an hour scouring the Oise archives with fantastic results. My French is not great but with a little help from Google translate, you can get by! I cannot tell you about WW1 records as I have not looked for any French ones before. I hope this helps a little. Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ashton April Sent: 27 February 2014 20:27 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOG-UK] France Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? Thank you, April Wood Ashton ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many departments have actual images on line and most are free. Here is a summary of what's available, in French but easily figured out or translated: http://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Archives_en_ligne There are also pay sites www.geneanet.org with many user-submitted family trees, and genealogie.com. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashton April" <ahashton@focalplane.com> To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 1:26:51 PM Subject: [SOG-UK] France Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? Thank you, April Wood Ashton ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anyone tell me whether there are any French records are available on line - ie French BMD's, ie French WW1 records? Thank you, April Wood Ashton

You may find that the Federation of Family History Societies and also the Scottish Federation may be interested in taking this up. Jeanne Bunting Sent from my iPhone 5 > On 27 Feb 2014, at 09:11, Geoff Young <geoffyoung101@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Might an foi request be worth a punt in any event ? > > The only grounds for withholding a copy or access to the original must surely be economic and that ought to be something that could be overcome on a case by case basis, as you say, for a fee ? > > This is an interesting area and as more records are digitised and cost cutting bites I can see more of these sort of restrictions applying. > > I do feel it is something for ASGRA, AGRA and SOG to ponder. > > Geoff > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 27 Feb 2014, at 00:43, "Ann Cossar" <cossar@one-name.org> wrote: >> >> For Scotland you need a member of ASGRA. We are a separate nation, you know! >> Ann >> >> On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:15 AM, >> John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> wrote: >> | I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting >> somebody. >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you for that, Rosemary. I too have lost credits but not that much! I have confused people over this issue. What I am looking for (I suspect) is the original church record. The statutory registers say e.g. signed James Ferguson witness. For the Registrar to put signed on the certificate there must be a piece of paper that the witness actually signed. I appreciate that this is not part of the Statutory registers but it must have appeared somewhere... possibly a church copy? This would be the case in England. What I am seeking is that record. I understand how a different practice could grow up in birth or death registration. The informant is sitting in an office giving the details, the registrar writes them down and then offers the paper for signature, 15 minutes a time say but is a registrar going to leave the office and sit through a whole marriage ceremony? I think not. I suspect that the minister recorded the information from his own church register and returned it to New Register House. If I am right I want to find the original church record. I fully accept that the secular record will not assist me. I would just add that James Ferguson to my knowledge never registered a birth or a death, certainly, not his mother's and he was in England by 1876. I contacted two AGRA members yesterday but neither has come back tome. if I hear nothing I will contact Kirsty Wilkinson John On 27/02/2014 15:49, Rosemary Morgan wrote: > I've followed this topic with interest as I have in the past compared the > signature of an informant on a Scottish death record (c. 1925), with that > on an English Will, to prove to a client that I had found her grandmother. > > Having just gone back into Scotlands People (and found "en passant" that > my 84 credits had expired - drat!), it does look like the marriage witness > signatures are not recorded, while those of the death informants are. It > would interesting to know why, but it may have something to do with the > way that marriage details were recorded at the time of marriage. > > I would definitely suggest an email to an ASGRA member, and would > recommend Kirsty Wilkinson, a very knowledgeable Scottish genealogist, and > colleague of mine. If she doesn't know, she can probably help you find > out. > > Here is the ASGRA link: http://www.asgra.co.uk/listofmembers.php > > I hope this helps. > > Rosemary > > > On 27/02/2014 14:08, "Adrian Bruce" <abruce@madasafish.com> wrote: > >> <<snipped>> >> Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on >> the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella >> White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of >> certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be >> in >> New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. >> <<snipped>> >> >> OK - the reference to church register clarifies the matter. >> >> As for what happened to them, I'm not that surprised no-one seems to quite >> know. The talk in Scotland is always about the OPRs - the Old Parish >> Registers, i.e. pre-1855. What never seems to be mentioned are the New >> Parish Registers, i.e. post-1855. I can't remember whether I asked but I >> have the impression that any NPRs (and the term is mine, not an official >> one) could be anywhere with the local RO being favourite. No - hang on - >> I've just found my reference, I did ask and people cast doubt on whether >> such things were even kept - PR legislation north of the Border being very >> different to that South. >> >> So - not much help there either, other than agreeing no-one seems to >> know... >> Slightly cautiously, slightly cynically, I still remain to be convinced >> the >> originals were ever kept. >> >> Best of luck.... >> >> Adrian B >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I've followed this topic with interest as I have in the past compared the signature of an informant on a Scottish death record (c. 1925), with that on an English Will, to prove to a client that I had found her grandmother. Having just gone back into Scotlands People (and found "en passant" that my 84 credits had expired - drat!), it does look like the marriage witness signatures are not recorded, while those of the death informants are. It would interesting to know why, but it may have something to do with the way that marriage details were recorded at the time of marriage. I would definitely suggest an email to an ASGRA member, and would recommend Kirsty Wilkinson, a very knowledgeable Scottish genealogist, and colleague of mine. If she doesn't know, she can probably help you find out. Here is the ASGRA link: http://www.asgra.co.uk/listofmembers.php I hope this helps. Rosemary On 27/02/2014 14:08, "Adrian Bruce" <abruce@madasafish.com> wrote: ><<snipped>> >Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on >the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella >White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of >certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be >in >New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. ><<snipped>> > >OK - the reference to church register clarifies the matter. > >As for what happened to them, I'm not that surprised no-one seems to quite >know. The talk in Scotland is always about the OPRs - the Old Parish >Registers, i.e. pre-1855. What never seems to be mentioned are the New >Parish Registers, i.e. post-1855. I can't remember whether I asked but I >have the impression that any NPRs (and the term is mine, not an official >one) could be anywhere with the local RO being favourite. No - hang on - >I've just found my reference, I did ask and people cast doubt on whether >such things were even kept - PR legislation north of the Border being very >different to that South. > >So - not much help there either, other than agreeing no-one seems to >know... >Slightly cautiously, slightly cynically, I still remain to be convinced >the >originals were ever kept. > >Best of luck.... > >Adrian B > > > > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks you cynic!! Will keep you posted. John On 27/02/2014 14:08, Adrian Bruce wrote: > <<snipped>> > Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on > the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella > White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of > certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be in > New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. > <<snipped>> > > OK - the reference to church register clarifies the matter. > > As for what happened to them, I'm not that surprised no-one seems to quite > know. The talk in Scotland is always about the OPRs - the Old Parish > Registers, i.e. pre-1855. What never seems to be mentioned are the New > Parish Registers, i.e. post-1855. I can't remember whether I asked but I > have the impression that any NPRs (and the term is mine, not an official > one) could be anywhere with the local RO being favourite. No - hang on - > I've just found my reference, I did ask and people cast doubt on whether > such things were even kept - PR legislation north of the Border being very > different to that South. > > So - not much help there either, other than agreeing no-one seems to know... > Slightly cautiously, slightly cynically, I still remain to be convinced the > originals were ever kept. > > Best of luck.... > > Adrian B > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

<<snipped>> Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be in New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. <<snipped>> OK - the reference to church register clarifies the matter. As for what happened to them, I'm not that surprised no-one seems to quite know. The talk in Scotland is always about the OPRs - the Old Parish Registers, i.e. pre-1855. What never seems to be mentioned are the New Parish Registers, i.e. post-1855. I can't remember whether I asked but I have the impression that any NPRs (and the term is mine, not an official one) could be anywhere with the local RO being favourite. No - hang on - I've just found my reference, I did ask and people cast doubt on whether such things were even kept - PR legislation north of the Border being very different to that South. So - not much help there either, other than agreeing no-one seems to know... Slightly cautiously, slightly cynically, I still remain to be convinced the originals were ever kept. Best of luck.... Adrian B

Thanks for that Adrian. I am sorry that my loose terminology has confused the issue. What I should perhaps have said is that what I want are copies of the original entries in the two church registers for comparison. To clarify the position - a James Ferguson was born in 1852 . According to his baptismal record this James was the bastard son of James Ferguson of Arbroath and Isabella White (unmarried) of Weemys. Isabella raises her son whilst living with her great aunt and eventually marries one Hally Martin in Weemys in the Church of Scotland and a James Ferguson (most probably her son but not necessarily so) is a witness. My great grandfather, James Ferguson marries in Warrington in 1877. The marriage took place in St Elphin's church and the church register for that marriage is held at Cheshire record Office. His signature is available in that register . Quite simply I want to examine the signature made by great grandfather on the St Elphin's register with the signature of the witness to Isabella White's marriage in the kirk in Weemys. Nobody can, with any degree of certainty tell me where that signed piece of paper is. I believe it to be in New Register House Edinburgh but even the staff do not seem sure. I have written to New Register House and also to AGRA members in Edinburgh to see if they can help. If, of course the original record , signed by the participants, has been lost or destroyed then that is the end of the matter, but if it is in New Register House somewhere then I should be able to see a copy of it. I have been tracing the elusive James Ferguson for 30 years and this seemed to be a chance of possibly identifying where the man came from in Scotland. No other certificates I am afraid. I will post the result of my avenues of research. Regards John 7/02/2014 10:41, Adrian Bruce wrote: > <<snipped>> > I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s > People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I > can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own > English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they > are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage > certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office > <<snipped>> > > Actually, strictly speaking no it's not. Cheshire RO can only supply a copy > of the entry in the church's register. The version that went to the local > registrar is much less accessible. In some cases you can get a photocopy, in > other cases it's a hand-written transcript. If it was a register office > marriage, you are entirely dependent on the methods of reproduction in > today's register office. > > > <<snipped>> > but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever > view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. > <<snipped>> > > This is, in effect, exactly the same case as in England & Wales. The > Registrar gives you a copy of their own document. > > > <<snipped>> > This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or > digitised copy) on the Scottish document. .... I understand, again from > Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that > copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or > the Fife FHS. > <<snipped>> > > I would be wary of accepting the idea that "this is a relatively recent > restriction." Bear in mind that Scottish marriages are registered AFTER the > event - not at the same time as the ceremony. I would like a concrete > statement that the originals were retained first before progressing further > - I can imagine a minister filling in a form at the marriage (often in a > domestic setting, of course), then transcribing the details at the register > office. Would anyone keep those originals? The registrars wouldn't need them > - they'd just be piles of loose sheets of paper. It could be rather like > Coroners' Reports in England - their (the minister's) personal property. I > could be wrong in my suspicions... > > Is there by any chance a Scots birth certificate? Those (and death certs) > have the original signatures? > > Adrian B > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

<<snipped>> I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office <<snipped>> Actually, strictly speaking no it's not. Cheshire RO can only supply a copy of the entry in the church's register. The version that went to the local registrar is much less accessible. In some cases you can get a photocopy, in other cases it's a hand-written transcript. If it was a register office marriage, you are entirely dependent on the methods of reproduction in today's register office. <<snipped>> but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. <<snipped>> This is, in effect, exactly the same case as in England & Wales. The Registrar gives you a copy of their own document. <<snipped>> This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. .... I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. <<snipped>> I would be wary of accepting the idea that "this is a relatively recent restriction." Bear in mind that Scottish marriages are registered AFTER the event - not at the same time as the ceremony. I would like a concrete statement that the originals were retained first before progressing further - I can imagine a minister filling in a form at the marriage (often in a domestic setting, of course), then transcribing the details at the register office. Would anyone keep those originals? The registrars wouldn't need them - they'd just be piles of loose sheets of paper. It could be rather like Coroners' Reports in England - their (the minister's) personal property. I could be wrong in my suspicions... Is there by any chance a Scots birth certificate? Those (and death certs) have the original signatures? Adrian B

Hi John I read your email with interest as I have Scottish ancestry which I've done a fair bit of research on. The marriage record you see via Scotland's People is an exact copy of the original entry in the register, so there would be no point in looking at the original as it wouldn't tell you anything further. The original record books are held in a vault for prosperity - but all have been copied exactly as they were produced, in their entirety. Its very odd that there are no witnesses shown, however. I have 3 Scottish Marriage certificates myself from the 19th century (downloaded from SP) and they all show witnesses. If I were you I would telephone the National Registry Office for Scotland on: 0131 314 4411 who I have found to be very helpful in the past when I have had questions. Hope that helps and I'd be interested to hear what the registry office say? 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Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of sog-uk-request@rootsweb.com Sent: 27 February 2014 08:01 To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Subject: SOG-UK Digest, Vol 9, Issue 17 Today's Topics: 1. Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 (John Stoneley) 2. Re: Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 (John Hanson) 3. Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland (John Stoneley) 4. Re: Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland PS (Ann Cossar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:05:28 +0000 From: John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 To: SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <530E1ED8.8050204@stoneley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland?s People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland?s People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar?s copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland?s archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions ? perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:31:26 -0000 From: "John Hanson" <john.hanson@one-name.org> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 To: <john@stoneley.com>, <sog-uk@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001101cf3318$949ad340$bdd079c0$@one-name.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Stoneley Sent: 26 February 2014 17:05 To: SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland's People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland's People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar's copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland's archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions - perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:15:23 +0000 From: John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland To: sog-uk@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <530E839B.4000300@stoneley.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed John, Thanks for your very speedy and constructive response. I have not emailed Else Churchill but I have already spoken to her over the phone. It was at her suggestion that I contacted the appropriate registrar. To be perfectly frank I did not find that Ms Churchill was much interested in the problem I posed nor was she able to make any comment upon whether or not representations had been made to anybody responsible for this decision. I got, rightly or wrongly, the strong impression, as I often have when dealing with the Society, that unless the issue relates to the "great and good " or those living in the 1600s or earlier it merits little attention. My level of genealogy is much more mundane, My concern here is that it seems those who control the original marriage certificates in Scotland have made no arrangements to provide on request (and for a suitable fee) a photo-copy or other digitised copy of an original marriage certificate. Further, as I understand it, they will not allow inspection of the original .They have it but are withholding it. It is, as if Whitehall called in every marriage register post 1837 in England, refused to allow anybody to make a photo copy fiche or other direct copy and said that henceforth you could see nothing but the copy issued by the General Register Office. I was hoping that a member of the Society might be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the position and if I am correct might know of a work around. I have decided to short-circuit matters and have therefore already written to the National Registers of Scotland to see what they have to say. If this does not work I shall be contacting my Member of the Scottish Parliament to see whether he can bring about a change of policy. I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting somebody. However as I live in Scotland not far from Edinburgh if I can get an open sesame it is something that I can deal with myself. Many thanks for your interest John John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 00:39:03 -0000 From: "Ann Cossar" <cossar@one-name.org> Subject: Re: [SOG-UK] Viewing an original marriage certificate in Scotland PS To: <john@stoneley.com>, <sog-uk@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <1FB0EECFC4BF4937A2AA01F7A8C05B27@Thrimsa> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" For Scotland you need a member of ASGRA. We are a separate nation, you know! Ann On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:15 AM, John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> wrote: | I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and | will be contacting somebody. ------------------------------ To contact the SOG-UK list administrator, send an email to SOG-UK-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the SOG-UK mailing list, send an email to SOG-UK@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of SOG-UK Digest, Vol 9, Issue 17 *************************************

Might an foi request be worth a punt in any event ? The only grounds for withholding a copy or access to the original must surely be economic and that ought to be something that could be overcome on a case by case basis, as you say, for a fee ? This is an interesting area and as more records are digitised and cost cutting bites I can see more of these sort of restrictions applying. I do feel it is something for ASGRA, AGRA and SOG to ponder. Geoff Sent from my iPhone > On 27 Feb 2014, at 00:43, "Ann Cossar" <cossar@one-name.org> wrote: > > For Scotland you need a member of ASGRA. We are a separate nation, you know! > Ann > > On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:15 AM, > John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> wrote: > | I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting > somebody. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For Scotland you need a member of ASGRA. We are a separate nation, you know! Ann On Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:15 AM, John Stoneley <joka@stoneley.com> wrote: | I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting somebody.

John, Thanks for your very speedy and constructive response. I have not emailed Else Churchill but I have already spoken to her over the phone. It was at her suggestion that I contacted the appropriate registrar. To be perfectly frank I did not find that Ms Churchill was much interested in the problem I posed nor was she able to make any comment upon whether or not representations had been made to anybody responsible for this decision. I got, rightly or wrongly, the strong impression, as I often have when dealing with the Society, that unless the issue relates to the "great and good " or those living in the 1600s or earlier it merits little attention. My level of genealogy is much more mundane, My concern here is that it seems those who control the original marriage certificates in Scotland have made no arrangements to provide on request (and for a suitable fee) a photo-copy or other digitised copy of an original marriage certificate. Further, as I understand it, they will not allow inspection of the original .They have it but are withholding it. It is, as if Whitehall called in every marriage register post 1837 in England, refused to allow anybody to make a photo copy fiche or other direct copy and said that henceforth you could see nothing but the copy issued by the General Register Office. I was hoping that a member of the Society might be able to confirm or refute my understanding of the position and if I am correct might know of a work around. I have decided to short-circuit matters and have therefore already written to the National Registers of Scotland to see what they have to say. If this does not work I shall be contacting my Member of the Scottish Parliament to see whether he can bring about a change of policy. I do take on board your suggestion of approaching an AGRA member and will be contacting somebody. However as I live in Scotland not far from Edinburgh if I can get an open sesame it is something that I can deal with myself. Many thanks for your interest John John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson

John Bearing in mind that this list has never been an official means of contacting the society can I suggest that you email Else Churchill genealogy@sog.org.uk about the Society's response. You could try asking one of the AGRA members based in Scotland as they may have better knowledge than someone based in England. Regards John Hanson -----Original Message----- From: sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sog-uk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Stoneley Sent: 26 February 2014 17:05 To: SOG-UK@rootsweb.com Subject: [SOG-UK] Viewing Statutory Marriage Certificates in Scotland Post 1855 Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland's People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland's People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar's copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland's archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions - perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SOG-UK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Please post the following message I have recently viewed a marriage certificate (1868) at the Scotland’s People website. I now wish to see the original or a copy thereof so that I can compare the signature of the witness to that marriage with his own English marriage certificate to ascertain (hopefully) whether or not they are the same people. A photo-copy of the original English marriage certificate (1877) is readily available from the Cheshire Records Office but I am advised by Scotland’s People that there is no way that I can ever view other than the Registrar’s copy of the Scottish marriage. This means that I cannot ever see the actual signatures (even on a photo or digitised copy) on the Scottish document. This seems to be the case for all marriage certificates since the commencement of civil registration in Scotland. I understand, again from Scotland People, that this is a relatively recent restriction. It seems that copies are not kept by The Fife Records Office or the Church of Scotland or the Fife FHS. Is there any work around? If not, and the originals have been lost forever to the vaults of the National Registers of Scotland’s archive, was any objection lodged by the Society or any other body when this was introduced? It seems a travesty of the principles of record keeping and of freedom of information if the original signed document is forever inaccessible. Before I try to take this further through the National Registers of Scotland or my MSP have any other members run up against this problem? If so have they (or anybody else) any suggestions – perhaps, even a freedom of information application? Thank you