Thank you DAvid!...from little I have read of what I have read there is little of and it was done by Ray Smathers of the now defunct Smathers Archives, he mentions a Wm Smither I was knighted around the 11the century and again it was done to either a son or grandson also name Wm Smither II. I have tried to find more info on this but so far not much luck. At any rate, yes, you are surely correcto mungo that it was an 'individual' who rec'd the Coat of Arms and then passed thru family.So if we could find something on the lst Wm Smither that was knighted it would be most beneficial, I am thinking around 1100 then again in 1200, do not have the info in front of me. And I tend to agree with you, it sure seems the 'other' names became or could have become 'off shoots' of this Smither family, some of us have thought that for some time anyway, just trying to prove it appears more difficult, Nena [your Line is the Hill line md into Smither, correct & went to NC?] From: "L HILL" <davidandgailhill@msn.com>23 Dec 2002 15:47:54 -0500 As I know you are aware, Coats of Arms were granted to individuals for extraordinary loyalty to the king/queen as demonstrated by acts of bravery, heroism, etc., or possessing special skills or trades. The Coat of Arms was not bestowed upon a family. It is true, however, that many families carried the Coats of Arms forward through the generations as proof of their descendancy from the decorated ancestor. Coats of Arms really gained notoriety during the period of heraldry when everyone, who was anyone!, could not be anyone unless they traced their ancestry to some noble person. This is when the "concept" of "family Coats of Arms" came into play. For the most part, these early genealogist, practicing the "profession" of heraldry would make up a line of descent just to please someone who wanted to be someone. Unfortunately, these early heraldry accounts still exist and too many of we current genealogist are too quick to accept them as fact, when most are not! Again, since Coats of Arms were granted/bestowed upon individuals, not families, I would hope that there are many of our ancestors who where worthy enough to receive Coats of Arms within the Smithers/Smothers/Smathers/etc/etc families. It is possible that only one of our ancestors was worthy enough to have been awarded his own Coat of Arms and that Coat of Arms has been handed down from generation to generation to demonstrate descendancy from that worthy ancestor. If there is similarity in the Coats you have described, then, perhaps, we all can trace our descendancy to the same worthy person. Thank you,>David Hill>North Carolina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf