Just for information and adding to [email protected]'s -email: Florian comes from the Saint Florian, the catholic patron of the fireguards and is still very common in Austria I also can not think about any thing with "Gertranda" except the female name Gertraud, Gertrude. Best wishes from Styria Walter -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Pat Wood [mailto:[email protected]] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Jänner 2002 01:31 An: [email protected] Betreff: First names' translation request - Results Greetings - I want to thank everyone who replied. Very much appreciated. Significant progress has been made ... with only 2 names still challenging. Peter Majerle suggested this very helpful web site http://feefhs.org/slovenia/sidb1/si-names.html I have to agree with Cherie Gardner that it seems that the ending of a name may change ... depending on how it is used in a sentence. By that I mean ... just because it ends in 'a' does not mean it is female. [Any one who studied Latin should be able to relate to those changing endings!] Is there a fluent speaker of Slovenian out there who could set us straight?? The 2 remaining challenges on my list are Gertranda and Florjan. The context in which they appear .... in a letter written by a priest in Borovnica in 1986 ... suggest that they are male names. He provided info on several families from the church records. ... In each case he seems to have grouped the sons first and then the daughters. Gertranda and Florjan were grouped with the sons' names. So am inclined to think that the translator did not err, and that both persons were sons. Again - Thanks very much! Pat Wood Fircrest, Washington ______________________________

Tina, I think you did a wonderful job explaining this subject to us all. However, if in fact I ever knew what a substantive was, I have forgotten this very telling information. What is this thing you have so carefully elucidated? And how does it work if you were to use it in a sentence? All ready to panic, just tell me how, Ashley >A native Slovenian here. > >Slovene language, like Latin, knows the so-called declination of >substantives. Don't panic, but we know female and male gender substantives, >and also those of neutral gender. Each substantive follows one of four >patterns, so we basically have 12 patterns (3 genders x 4 patterns) for each >and every substantive there is. Panicking already? > > > >I think that all the substantives of the male gender that end in a consonant >follow the 1st male declination pattern. > >Now you can start panicking! > > T I N A --

A native Slovenian here. Slovene language, like Latin, knows the so-called declination of substantives. Don't panic, but we know female and male gender substantives, and also those of neutral gender. Each substantive follows one of four patterns, so we basically have 12 patterns (3 genders x 4 patterns) for each and every substantive there is. Panicking already? Wait a minute. Each declination has six (6!) cases (Fall in German, casus in Latin). I won't bother you with their names. Oh, yes, we also have 3 numbers - singular, dual and plural. As far as this is concerned, we're probably the only nation in the world that knows dual (or maybe there's one or two more...) And the adjective must match the substantive in gender, case and number. The four declinations that a genealogist might find useful are 1&2 female and 1&2 male. Here are the patterns, only in singular. I doubt very much you will be needing dual and plural. The first part is the root of the word, the second part (after -) is the ending that you add to the root. The patterns I'm using are the ones that are taught in Slovene schools - linden (tree), wing, step and duke, respectively. In the 5th and 6th case it is necessary to use the words pri (at) and s/z (with). I will tell you how to decide to use s or z some other time (if anyone will be interested). Enough talking, here are the patterns: 1. FEMALE 1. lip-a 2. lip-e 3. lip-i 4. lip-o 5. pri lip-i 6. z lip-o 2. FEMALE 1. perut-// 2. perut-i 3. perut-i 4. perut-// 5. pri perut-i 6. s perut-jo 1. MALE 1. korak-// 2. korak-a 3. korak-u 4. korak-// 5. pri korak-u 6. s korak-om 2. MALE 1. vojvod-a 2. vojvod-e 3. vojvod-i 4. vojvod-o 5. pri vojvod-i 6. z vojvod-o // means there is no ending. Before you ask - whether to use 1st female or 2nd male declination (though they look the same) depends on the gender of the substantive. If you're not sure whether it's male or female, feel free to ask. I think that all the substantives of the male gender that end in a consonant follow the 1st male declination pattern. Now you can start panicking! T I N A

concerning the names - i don't speak slovene, but some of the names sound familiar > Gertranda - this name is written wrong --> i suppose it should mean Gertrauda/Gertraude (short form Traude) ...female the hand-written "n" and "u" were very similar > Antona --> - Antonia (fem.) --> Anton (male) > Ursulo --> in german: ursula, female name - never heard of a similar male name, the names' endings vary in croatian (and i guess also in slovene) - they are somehow case-sensitive, e.g if a word is connected with a place/direction its ending changes. so depending on the whole sense of a sentence names ending with -a could also be male. (...Sv. Filipa i Jakoba = the holly Philipp and Jacob) > Jozefa --> Josefa ...male: josip --> Josef (joseph) > Franca --> Franziska (francis) > Jakoba --> there is the german "Jakoba or Jakobine" (fem.) --> male: Jakob (Jacob -engl.) Florjan --> in german: Florian, male name > Jernej --> could be the german "Bartholom�us" > Neza --> ?? if this is of help for you??? regards, georg (from austria) [email protected] wrote: > ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822 SLOVENIA-D Digest Volume 02 : Issue 10 Today's Topics: #1 Re: First names' translation reque ["Cherie" ] #2 First names' translation request - [Pat Wood ] #3 Re: First names' translation reque [[email protected]] Administrivia: To unsubscribe from SLOVENIA-D, send a message to [email protected] that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. To contact the list administrator, send mail to [email protected] ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:53:19 -0700 From: "Cherie" To: [email protected] Subject: Re: First names' translation request Pat: Neza is female and a rough equivalent in English would be Agnes. My ggrandmother's Slovene name was Jozefa--she was called Josephine in the U.S. I have seen Jernej -- but will have to dig in my materials since I cannot remember off the top of my head. I have never seen Florjan or Gertranda. I THINK that to some degree you can say that a name ending with "a" is female and a name ending with "o" is male. I discovered that this is NOT a hard and fast rule when having a letter translated in 1989 that I recieved from the Archives in Lublanja. Apparently the endings of a name can be changed depending on how it is used in a sentence. Having said that I will say that I will take a stab at these names: I had an Uncle Tony in the US which in Slovene was written Anton--my guess is that Antona is the feminine of Anton. I also had an Uncle Frank in the US--his name was likewise written Franc in Slovene. My guess is that Franca is the feminine form of Franc. I have other ancestors in the US of German extraction that use the names Ursula(fem) and Jakob(male). My guess is that Ursulo is male and Jakoba if female. And using the same reasoning I would say that Gertranda is female. Who can help pat with Florjan, Gertranda and Jernei? Cherie Gardner Harmon [email protected] searchingYACHISH (settled in PA), PASICH (AL), MIKLIC (MT,NV), BLATNIK (MT,NV), KOCJAN (NV,ID,OH) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Wood" To: Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: First names' translation request > Greetings, > > Am not at all familiar with the Slovenian language, and would appreciate > some help in determining the Gender and English equivalents of these > names: > > Gertranda > Antona > Ursulo > Jozefa > Franca > Jakoba > Florjan > Jernej > Neza > > The Svete / Strazisar family was from the village of Nizevec in the > parish of Borovnica. > > Thanks very much. > Pat Wood > > ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 3 message/rfc822 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:30:55 -0800 From: Pat Wood To: [email protected] Subject: First names' translation request - Results Greetings - I want to thank everyone who replied. Very much appreciated. Significant progress has been made ... with only 2 names still challenging. Peter Majerle suggested this very helpful web site http://feefhs.org/slovenia/sidb1/si-names.html I have to agree with Cherie Gardner that it seems that the ending of a name may change ... depending on how it is used in a sentence. By that I mean ... just because it ends in 'a' does not mean it is female. [Any one who studied Latin should be able to relate to those changing endings!] Is there a fluent speaker of Slovenian out there who could set us straight?? The 2 remaining challenges on my list are Gertranda and Florjan. The context in which they appear .... in a letter written by a priest in Borovnica in 1986 ... suggest that they are male names. He provided info on several families from the church records. ... In each case he seems to have grouped the sons first and then the daughters. Gertranda and Florjan were grouped with the sons' names. So am inclined to think that the translator did not err, and that both persons were sons. Again - Thanks very much! Pat Wood Fircrest, Washington ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 4 message/rfc822 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:36:51 EST From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: First names' translation request - Results In a message dated 1/22/2002 7:35:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << Gertranda and Florjan. >> Florian (same pronunciation as Florjan) is definitely a male name. I have a cousin with this name in current day Austria, province of Carinthia just north of Slovenia. There is no English equivalent. Could Gertranda supposed to be Gertrauda instead? (in Old Gothic handwriting, u and n look alike except for the "little mark" above the letter when it is supposed to be a "u" - so if someone transcribed the names and they don't know the gothic alphabet, they could have erred). Gertraud, Gertraut, etc in German, and Gertruada and alternate spellings in the Czech. is a very common name and would be equivalent to Gertrude in English. For Slovenian given names - (found with a simple search on www.google.com) http://feefhs.org/slovenia/sidb1/si-names.html http://www.kabalarians.com/male/sloven-m.htm for males http://www.kabalarians.com/female/sloven-f.htm for females Most complete given name list with alternate spellings for English, German, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, etc. Although Slovenian is not listed, I think this list is the most complete and most helpful I've seen for finding given name equivalents (names don't actually translate) http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/sc/oconee/misc/foreign-names.txt --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail.

In a message dated 1/22/2002 7:35:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << Gertranda and Florjan. >> Florian (same pronunciation as Florjan) is definitely a male name. I have a cousin with this name in current day Austria, province of Carinthia just north of Slovenia. There is no English equivalent. Could Gertranda supposed to be Gertrauda instead? (in Old Gothic handwriting, u and n look alike except for the "little mark" above the letter when it is supposed to be a "u" - so if someone transcribed the names and they don't know the gothic alphabet, they could have erred). Gertraud, Gertraut, etc in German, and Gertruada and alternate spellings in the Czech. is a very common name and would be equivalent to Gertrude in English. For Slovenian given names - (found with a simple search on www.google.com) http://feefhs.org/slovenia/sidb1/si-names.html http://www.kabalarians.com/male/sloven-m.htm for males http://www.kabalarians.com/female/sloven-f.htm for females Most complete given name list with alternate spellings for English, German, Hungarian, Czech, Slovak, etc. Although Slovenian is not listed, I think this list is the most complete and most helpful I've seen for finding given name equivalents (names don't actually translate) http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/sc/oconee/misc/foreign-names.txt

Greetings - I want to thank everyone who replied. Very much appreciated. Significant progress has been made ... with only 2 names still challenging. Peter Majerle suggested this very helpful web site http://feefhs.org/slovenia/sidb1/si-names.html I have to agree with Cherie Gardner that it seems that the ending of a name may change ... depending on how it is used in a sentence. By that I mean ... just because it ends in 'a' does not mean it is female. [Any one who studied Latin should be able to relate to those changing endings!] Is there a fluent speaker of Slovenian out there who could set us straight?? The 2 remaining challenges on my list are Gertranda and Florjan. The context in which they appear .... in a letter written by a priest in Borovnica in 1986 ... suggest that they are male names. He provided info on several families from the church records. ... In each case he seems to have grouped the sons first and then the daughters. Gertranda and Florjan were grouped with the sons' names. So am inclined to think that the translator did not err, and that both persons were sons. Again - Thanks very much! Pat Wood Fircrest, Washington

Pat: Neza is female and a rough equivalent in English would be Agnes. My ggrandmother's Slovene name was Jozefa--she was called Josephine in the U.S. I have seen Jernej -- but will have to dig in my materials since I cannot remember off the top of my head. I have never seen Florjan or Gertranda. I THINK that to some degree you can say that a name ending with "a" is female and a name ending with "o" is male. I discovered that this is NOT a hard and fast rule when having a letter translated in 1989 that I recieved from the Archives in Lublanja. Apparently the endings of a name can be changed depending on how it is used in a sentence. Having said that I will say that I will take a stab at these names: I had an Uncle Tony in the US which in Slovene was written Anton--my guess is that Antona is the feminine of Anton. I also had an Uncle Frank in the US--his name was likewise written Franc in Slovene. My guess is that Franca is the feminine form of Franc. I have other ancestors in the US of German extraction that use the names Ursula(fem) and Jakob(male). My guess is that Ursulo is male and Jakoba if female. And using the same reasoning I would say that Gertranda is female. Who can help pat with Florjan, Gertranda and Jernei? Cherie Gardner Harmon [email protected] searchingYACHISH (settled in PA), PASICH (AL), MIKLIC (MT,NV), BLATNIK (MT,NV), KOCJAN (NV,ID,OH) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Wood" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: First names' translation request > Greetings, > > Am not at all familiar with the Slovenian language, and would appreciate > some help in determining the Gender and English equivalents of these > names: > > Gertranda > Antona > Ursulo > Jozefa > Franca > Jakoba > Florjan > Jernej > Neza > > The Svete / Strazisar family was from the village of Nizevec in the > parish of Borovnica. > > Thanks very much. > Pat Wood > >

Greetings, Am not at all familiar with the Slovenian language, and would appreciate some help in determining the Gender and English equivalents of these names: Gertranda Antona Ursulo Jozefa Franca Jakoba Florjan Jernej Neza The Svete / Strazisar family was from the village of Nizevec in the parish of Borovnica. Thanks very much. Pat Wood

Looking for any one with the name Stres or related to:

I have finally reached the end of my patience with mailpuppy.com. Please send any future correspondence to me at [email protected] Thank you, Mary -- [email protected] http://genealogy2002.tripod.com http://communities.msn.com/Genealogy2000 _______________________________________________ Get your free email @ http://www.MailPuppy.com Download your HOLIDAY GREETING video card from http://www.DreamStarGroup.com/holidays.html _______________________________________________ Powered by Outblaze

>I'm forwarding this message to the Croatia-L list from GEN-Slavic >because of the close proximity of Slovene and Croatian names. The >author also doesn't seem to have posted it to the Slovene list at >Rootsweb. Appologies if this is a duplication in your box. Sherry, please note the surnames below. If these names below interest any of you or if you want more information, would you contact the author, not me. I have no connection here other than wishing for as many people as possible to find their families. In this instance, the families are not mine and I have no additional information. Good hunting in 2002, Ashley ****************************************************************************** Original-Sender: [email protected] Fri Jan 18 10:26:14 2002 >X-Loop: [email protected] >Resent-Sender: [email protected] > > Here is the latest update to the geneology project I have been >working on for nearly three years. On the Samsa side, there is a >significant recent discovery, and there are numerous updates to >dates, names, locations, and immigration information. > The ellisisland.org site now offers the opportunity to view and >order copies of the actual ships manifest for those who came through >the island. Previously, only limited information had been available >in text format. There are obviously numerous advantages to this - >most notably that one can now see who an immigrant's sponsor was. > An excellent example here is that I have discovered that Maria >Samsa had a brother, living in Chisholm, who sponsored her. I have >heard for years that she had known John, Sr., from Gora, and >travekled to marry him in the US. > This is either not the true story, or only partially true. She >was sponsored by her brother, Josef, who was living in Chisholm at >the time, and died in 1923. (His postal address was Box 423, >Chisholm, MN.) > My next task is to pursue the Josef Samsa branch, both back to to >Gora, and to research any marriage or children he may have had. > If you have any information you would like to share, >including dates and locations of births, christenings/baptism, >confirmations, first communions, adoptions, marriages, deaths/cause >of death, burials, graduations, military service, >emigration/immigration, lawful entry, ship of travel, >naturalization, illness, moves, occupations, ordination, etc., >and/or any photos of the above (or even family photos), please let >me know via email or at 952-928-3896. Photos may be either sent in >any digital format (preferably .jpeg) via email; if you do not have >a scanner available I can scan anything and return them to you >within 48 hours of receipt, by US Mail, FedEx, or otherwise. My >home address is 6405 Colony Way, #2D, Edina, MN 55435-2254. > Additionally, if you would like to assist with this project >in any way, please also let me know. All information is available >to anyone inluded in the database by request. This can be sent by >email or snail mail. I would suggest you use FamilySearch Personal >Ancestral File, version 5.1, which is available for download at no >cost at www.familysearch.org. This application uses file extensions >developed by the Mormon Church, and thus allows you to access any >ancestral files published worlwide, and also includes translation >capabilities. > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone you think might >be interested in this information, who is not included on the "Sent >to" list above. > >Until next time... > >-Ken Peterson > > > The following message has been posted to the Geneology.com >website, which is probably the most popular and one of the most >useful geneological websites available. > > I now have a collection of nearly 200 names associated with the >Gregor Samsa/Agnes Lustic (Gora, Slovenia), Charles Strand/Laura >("Jenny") Joyce (Duluth, MN), Torel (Thorwald?)/Christine Peterson >(Duluth, MN), and Vajo "Mike" and Eva Vukad/Vukadinovich (various >spellings), (Brylog, Austro-Hungaria) families. > Among these, I have recently discovered that Maria Samsa (surname >both birth and married name), who was married to Johan/John Samsa >Sr. (son of Gregor), was sponsored by her brother, named Josef, who >was living in Chisholm at the time of her immigration in 1910. This >would explain the "two Samsa families" in Chisholm, MN., long >thought to be unrelated. > Josef Samsa died in 1923, and I have not yet done any research on >his marriage or other family members, but this is my next step. > Associated names are: Baron, Bourdage, Cranston, Dehn, Doig, >Fechner, Galey, Gardner, Gersich, Gunderson, Holberg, Jacobsen, >Jane, Jankula, Jensen, Jones, Joyce, Kries, Lauzon, Lustic, >Mehelich, Nadeau, Nosen, Peterson, Powers, Rushak, Salminen, Samsa, >Smolensky, Staffaroni, Strand, Straps, Vukad, Vukadinavich, >Vukadinovich (various spellings) and Wendel. > Significant associated places are: Balnitza, Galatia, >Austria; Bear River, MN; Brylog, Austro-Hungaria; Buhl, MN; >Chisholm, MN; Crooks, SD; Detroit, MI; Duluth, MN; Florida; French >Township, MN; Gilbert, MN; Gora, Austria; Harris County, TX; >Hennepin County, MN; Hibbing, MN; Houston, TX; International Falls, >MN; Liverpool, England; Livingston, TX; Lutsen MN; Milwaukee, WI; >Minneapolis, MN; Minnehaha County, SD; Nova Scotia, Canada; Polk >County, TX; Post, TX; Racine, WI; Rauch, MN; Rochester, MN; Ronan, >MT; St. Cloud, MN; St. Louis County, MN; St. Louis Park, MN; St. >Paul, MN; Serbia; Side Lake, MN; Village of Smilnyk, Galicia, >Austria; Souix Falls, South Dakota; Sparta, MN; Triest, >Austro-Hungaria; Virginia, MN. > > --

After I visited my mother's mother's ancestral land, Slovenia, last September, I came home with the Slovenian telephone system's CD-ROM phone book of the country. It's great! I can search for ancestor surnames, then select any number of them to look at in detail, and then click on the map icon and have the location of each displayed on a map of the country. Selecting people with my grandmother's surname who presently live in the same area, I can click on "print" and get complete mailing labels correctly coded. After drawing a blank trying to find relatives when I was there, I just sent letters to 28 potential relatives with my grandmother's surname who live in villages surrounding the home she left 97 years ago. I cannot believe there won't be a few "hits" among those 28 letters. I've got mine, and after reading this, I bet a lot of you will want one for yourselves. Maybe we can talk the Slovenian Genealogy Society International into figuring out how to make them available to everyone. I paid about $25 for the CD in Slovenia. Maybe the SGSI can make a few bucks reselling them. Mike Fox

Looking for any one with the name Stres or related to:

Found some listings at FEEFHS which might be of interest to this list which I hadn't noticed before. I don't know if the hotlinks will work, as I cut and pasted this information for the posting. If you are interested in the databases and the links do not work, I've posted the main address immediately below. Hope this helps, Ashley http://www.feefhs.org/index/indexsur.html San Francisco Call (Newspaper) Vital Records extraction restoration project - currently about 121,500 persons (1869, 1875-1884). The civil records from about 1868-1969 until mid 1905 were destroyed in the 1906 earthquake and are just now beginning to be replaced by this major extraction project. This website is the only place that this database appears. This extraction project adds 13,000 or more new names (one year of vitals) to this database every six to eight weeks. It will eventually be about 400,000 persons when it is completed. It will take several more years to complete. Many residents were born in Central or Eastern Europe. San Francisco was the "New York of the West" as the major immigration port in California after the 1849 gold rush. Extractions are by Jim Faulkinbury, C.G.R.S. Foreign Born Voters of California - 1872 - 61,941 persons registered to vote, with age and birth country. Over 70% of those listed have full naturalization details, which are available for a modest fee. Birth countries include Azores, Australia, Austria, Baden, Bavaria, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Corsica, Denmark, England, France, Great Britain, Greece, Hamburg, Hanover, Heese-Darmstadt, Holland, Isle of Chris., Ireland, Italy, Mexico, New Brunswick, Norway, Nova Scotia, Oldenberg, Poland, Portugal, Prussia, Russia, Sandwich Isles, Scotland, Sweden, Switzerland, "at sea", Wales and Wurrtemberg...and many more. Extracted from California county "Great Registers" by Jim Faulkinbury, C.G.R.S. * Slovenian Marriage extractions (Forest City News, Pennsylvania) - 2000+ names - from the Slovenian Genealogy Society International, Al Peterlin, et. al. * Slovenian Surnames (Indianapolis IN) - about 825 names - From extractions of Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Parish Records by Al Peterlin, President of the Slovenian Genealogy Society International of Camp Hill, Pennsylvania * Croatia surnames in 4 Roman Catholic Parishes west of Zagreb --

I have added 4 new indexes to Genealogy2002. They are Mother Of God Births, Mother Of God 2nd Gen Marriages, St. Stephen's Births and St. Stephen's 2nd Gen Marriages. I have also updated the death index and added some other Slovenian interest articles. http://genealogy2002.tripod.com Mary -- [email protected] http://genealogy2002.tripod.com http://communities.msn.com/Genealogy2000 _______________________________________________ Get your free email @ http://www.MailPuppy.com Download your HOLIDAY GREETING video card from http://www.DreamStarGroup.com/holidays.html _______________________________________________ Powered by Outblaze

hi all, can anyone suggest a translations page which can handle translation of a letter from Slovene into English ? Thanks..Ed Interested in Eder and Bader from Ljubljana

SKRABAN, Theresa 1888-1967 Murska Sobota YUG (Slovenia)>NorthamptonCO, Bethlehem PA USA KOVACS, Joseph 1886-1965 Austria/HUN>NorthamptonCO, Bethlehem PA USA KOVACH, KOVACS: James born Veszprem Megye area in HUN, a farmer. Believe his wife's maiden name was NEMETH. There were at least two children: Joseph 1886-1965 and Mary. Mary married and stayed in Hungary.Joseph came to the USA early 1900's.He later switch surname spelling from Kovach to Kovacs. Joseph's wife: Terezija M. SKRABAN 1888-1967 Murska Sobota, YUG (Slovenia) Her mother's maiden name was SIFTAR, father was Joseph SKRABAN Theresa's birth certificate listed her parents as farmers. The certificate shows the address as Strukovci st.21. It also shows: "Krajevni ured Bodonci." If the translation from her birth certificate is correct, her godparents were Stefan GYERJEK and Lajos SINIC. I have no info on them but their names. Children of Joseph and Theresa Kovacs: 1. Joseph, Jr: 1909-1942 spouse Reiter 2. Katherine: 1912-1978 spouse Konya 3. Frank: 1915-1965 spouse Grabar 4. James: 1916-1937 5. Alex: 1919-1969 spouse Scheirer 6. Stephen: 1922-1979 spouse Schwartz 7. Mary: 1924-1937 8. John: 1926-1992 spouse Romig 9. Charles: 1928-1999 spouse Schrantz 10. William It is believed Terezija had relatives living in Carbon CO, Palmerton area. According to his birth certificate, the eldest son was born in Carbon CO. I have no paperwork but believe he was also baptized in Palmerton. ============ ADDITIONAL FAMILY MEMBERS TO GO ALONG WITH KOVACS,SKRABAN,SIFTAR ============ SCHWARTZ, Charles 1869-1932>AUT/HUN>NorthamptonCO Freemansburg,PA URBAN, Julia (Julianna) 1879-1934>AUT/HUN>Northampton CO, Freemansburg Pennsylvania SCHWARTZ, Charles: b.1869 in what looks like Eisenburg, Austria on the 1920 Census d.1932 Northampton CO, Bethlehem, PA His Naturalization certificate date: January 2, 1911 states address Freemansburg, PA Charles married Julia (Julianna) URBAN (1879-1934) in New Jersey 1895. The marriage certificate states they lived in South Bethlehem at that time. They were members of the Christ Lutheran Church in Freemansburg and are buried at Trinity Cemetery. Children and spouses of Charles and Julia: 1. Robert: spouse Bryfogle 2. Mary Julia: 1896-? Spouse Leibig 3. Charles J.: 1897-1943 spouse Lilly 4. Anthony: 1899-? Spouse Shew 5. Emil: 1902-1972 spouse Eustis 6. Elizabeth: 1903-? Spouse Weaver 7. William Francis: 1906-? Spouse Seifert 8. Frank: 1908-1924 9. Helen Theresa: 1912-? Spouse Wolfe 10. Walter Wendel: 1913-1913 11. Lillian Ethel: 1914-? Spouse Wolfe Second husband: Mohring 12. Esther May: 1917-? Spouse Rabenhold Charles was a shoemaker and had his shop on the top floor of their home. His death certificate shows his employer as Bethlehem Electric Light Co. ====================== EVANS, Margaret 1864-1949>Caernarvon Wales>Northampton CO, PA WILLIAMS, Ellis 1862-1893>Wales>Northampton CO PA EUSTIS, John 1866-1924- >Brodheadsville, PA My Margaret was born July 1864 or 1866 in Caernarvon Wales. Died October 1949 in NorthamptonCO, PA Per the 1920 census she arrived in the US in 1883 (1885 per info from a relative and 1887 from another) Margaret had a sister Jane who married into a Hughes family. They had a brother, William Evans, also. Husband #1 of Margaret Evans: Ellis Williams born in Wales and died 1893 in a slate quarry explosion in PA. . Children of Ellis and Margaret (Evans) Williams: 1. Jennie Williams: b.1885 in Wales; d. 1972; married John Rasley 1875-1938 Children of Jennie Williams: Russell and James Children of Jennie and John Rasley: John Jr, Susan, William, Charles, Phillip (Phillie), Jennie, Emma and Ethel 2. Robert Williams, Jr.: 1884 in Wales - 1917 3. Mary Ellen Williams: 1887-1937 spouse Harold Brewer: 1893-1965 Child of Mary Ellen Williams: Archie Children of Mary Ellen and Harold Brewer: Howard, Grace, George 4. John (Jack) Williams: 1890-1964 spouse: Mary Parry b. Wales 1895 d.1978 Children of John and Mary Williams: Margaret (Peggy) Husband # 2 of Margaret Evans: John EUSTIS 1866-1924 He was probably born in Brodheadsville, PA and is buried in St. John's Cemetery, Bangor PA. The family lived in Northampton CO, PA Easton (Wilson) area Children of John and Margaret Eustis: 1. Evan (Even) born 1903 2. Margaret Virginia born 3-17-1905 in Flicksville, PA died 4-1-1998 in Steele City, Northampton CO PA. Married Emil SCHWARTZ 3. William: born 6-21-1906 in Ackermansville, PA died 11-7-1984 in Newport News, Va. Married Mary Fox 4. David: 1908-October 1961, married Margaret Nemeth 5. Elizabeth: died abt 1953 6. Joseph: 1900-? Married Esther Hawk If anyone has any additional information or corrections, please e-mail me privately. Take care Genie Marie [email protected] http://www.geocities.com/geniemarie.geo Kovacs, Skraban, Siftar - Schwartz, Urban - Eustis, Evans, Williams

>to the list: I asked Frank Kurchina of the Croatia-L list at Rootsweb to comment on the out of wedlock posting. What he sent me is most interesting and informative, and I hope you'll find it useful. Please address further questions on traditional and/or religious practices to Frank or to the Croatia-L list. Don't ask me. Unlike Frank, I don't speak, read, and write 6 languages. Hint: Frank is a most useful Web resource. Vesali Nova Godina, Ashley >Subject: Re: Fwd: Pregnant out of wedlock culture? > > > >Ashley Tiwara wrote: >> >> Frank, >> An interesting story below. If possible, could you comment >> on it? If you aren't on the Slovenia list, I would then post it, if >> you send me a note. Thanks. > > > > Ashley > > > > > > > >From: Mike Fox <[email protected]> > > >Subject: Pregnant out of wedlock culture? > >>To: [email protected] > > > >It nice to know that we didn't invent sex out of wedlock here in the US. >> >Grandpa got grandma pregnant in Slovenia, and her sisters already here in >> >the US made them get married as soon as they got here in 1905. >> > >> >Great-grandpa got great-grandma pregnant in 1879 and she lived with her >> >folks until they got married in 1882. >> > >> >Two in a row is curious, and I'm wondering if this was just culturally >> >acceptable in Slovenia back then. Anyone know? >> > > > >Mike >> >************************************************************************************ >Well, not only in Slovenija and not culturally acceptable. > >If you recall Roman Catholic birth documents in Europe, whether written >in a Slavic language or Hungarian or Latin or whatever have space in >church >template which asked for a reply which was : > >legitimate (zakonit [male] or zakonita [ female] which was asking >if child was legitimate. >while nezakonit/nezakonita meant illegitimate. > >The church made it difficult to claim legitimacy in records even if >father >attested child was his although he was not married to the child's >mother. >Better to burn in hell than have an illegimate child. >Of course, some village priests also had 'housekeepers' who bore >children. >My parental GF had had two wives , whether both at same time or not, I >am not >sure. > >He had two families as well. > >When family No. 2 came calling at his door , he threw them out. >I was about 8 years old at the time and my recollection is quite hazy. >A younger brother told me recently that when he and my family were >driving through the next state, circa 1940, the remark was ' we have >some relatives living here (ha, ha) but they are only peasants (ha,ha)' > >My GPs had boarders with same surname living at their addresses >according to >1910/1920 U.S. Censuses. >According to GF words 'not related '. > > >While looking at Ellis Island records I noted a surname Kurcina bearing >my GF's >first name who had emigrated at age 17 in 1899, earlier tham my family >(who had >emigrated in 1900) >Individual was from same village as my parental GM. >Her village was ten miles distant from GF's village. >For couples who married in Europe before emigration this was about the >maximun >distance between villages since people walked back then. >This individual had been listed in a U.S. census above under my GP's >address. >My GM had 6 children, 1 died. >This was correct and the 5 living children had been my father and >siblings. >My GPs had left his village of origin soon after his marriage in 1880s >to my GM >and moved to Budapest. >This puts their ages in early twenties. >Or, perhaps they were told to move from village ? > >In another Ellis Island Record an unknown (to me) female age 16 with >same first >name as my GM and same surname arrived from Budapest in 1902. >After female's death in 1960s I obtained copy of her death certificate. >Her father was listed as my GF. >Her mother was listed as 'unknown'. > >So above is all speculative, but .... Frank Kurchina --

In Denmark it was common for a couple to have up to 4 children before they were married. Part of this was because it would take that long for the couple to save up the monies necessary to pay the Priest to perform the ceremony. I wonder what the practise was in Slovenia? Did it cost to get married? Cherie Gardner Harmon [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Urban" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 10:30 AM Subject: Pregnant out of wedlock culture? > I have found MANY babies born in the U.S. that no one knew about. Many died of influenza and dpt in the early 1900's. So this information was sealed until they changed the "freedom of information" laws. I have shocked and upset many relatives with this news as many thought their families were immune from this situation. Also found many born who were sired by a brother of the husband. So there was hanky panky going on then among sibblings too. This can probably partially be attributed to the fact that in the early years there were so many men and so few women. > -- > > > [email protected] > http://genealogy2002.tripod.com > http://communities.msn.com/Genealogy2000 > > > _______________________________________________ > Get your free email @ http://www.MailPuppy.com > A Service of: http://www.DreamStarGroup.com > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Powered by Outblaze > >

I have found MANY babies born in the U.S. that no one knew about. Many died of influenza and dpt in the early 1900's. So this information was sealed until they changed the "freedom of information" laws. I have shocked and upset many relatives with this news as many thought their families were immune from this situation. Also found many born who were sired by a brother of the husband. So there was hanky panky going on then among sibblings too. This can probably partially be attributed to the fact that in the early years there were so many men and so few women. -- [email protected] http://genealogy2002.tripod.com http://communities.msn.com/Genealogy2000 _______________________________________________ Get your free email @ http://www.MailPuppy.com A Service of: http://www.DreamStarGroup.com _______________________________________________ Powered by Outblaze