There is a firestorm raging in England concerning the admission of migrants. (for England, understand it is the portion of the island below Scotland)* I thought the following might be interesting to the list, considering some of us are trying to find our "English" ancestry. I've also been reading a book "The English A Portrait of a People" by Jeremy Plaxman. The author says in so many words that the Englishman lives in a world of fantacy about who he is and what is typical of England. * From: Elizabeth Vear, Cranbrook, Kent Re: Do Not duck the debate on migrants Date: 2 April 2001 "SIR - Daniel Defoe wrote in The Trueborn Englishman (1701): "The Romans first with Julius Caesar came, including all the nations of that name, Gauls, Greeks and Lombards; and by computation, auxiliaries or slaves of every nation. With Hengist, Saxons; Danes with Sueno came, in search of plunder, not in search of fame. Scots, Picts and Irish from th' Hibernian shore, and conqu'ring William brought the Normans o'er. All these their barb'rous offspring left behind, the dregs of armies, they of all mankind; Blended with Britains, who before were here, of whom the Welsh have blest the character. From this amphibious ill-born mob began that vain ill-natured thing, an Englishman. . ." A trueborn Englishman is a contradiction; in speech an irony, in fact a fiction.

I have friends who claim "english" should be spelled with a small E because it is a language, not a people (he argues the same foe "hispanic"). But if the modern day Englishman is not a part of a people, then what are we Americans? QUOTE OF THE DAY "There are several good protections against temptations, but the surest is cowardice." --Mark Twain ----- Original Message ----- From: Eugene Hubbard <hubfam@earthlink.net> To: <SHAW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 3:25 PM Subject: [SHAW] England and Migration Debate > > There is a firestorm raging in England concerning the admission of > migrants. > (for England, understand it is the portion of the island below > Scotland)* > > I thought the following might be interesting to the list, considering > some of us > are trying to find our "English" ancestry. > > I've also been reading a book "The English A Portrait of a People" by > Jeremy Plaxman. > The author says in so many words that the Englishman lives in a world of > fantacy about who he is and what is typical of England. > > > * From: Elizabeth Vear, Cranbrook, Kent > Re: Do Not duck the debate on migrants > Date: 2 April 2001 > > "SIR - Daniel Defoe wrote in The Trueborn Englishman (1701): > > "The Romans first with Julius Caesar came, > including all the nations of that name, > Gauls, Greeks and Lombards; and by computation, > auxiliaries or slaves of every nation. > With Hengist, Saxons; Danes with Sueno came, > in search of plunder, not in search of fame. > Scots, Picts and Irish from th' Hibernian shore, > and conqu'ring William brought the Normans o'er. > All these their barb'rous offspring left behind, > the dregs of armies, they of all mankind; > Blended with Britains, who before were here, > of whom the Welsh have blest the character. > From this amphibious ill-born mob began > that vain ill-natured thing, an Englishman. . ." > > A trueborn Englishman is a contradiction; in speech an irony, in fact a > fiction. > > > > ==== SHAW Mailing List ==== > > > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com > > >

To those following this thread, I think this thread has gotten off the path it took. It sounds to me as some are confusing nationality with race, or vice versa. Us humans really like labels and tend to choose the ones that suit us best. Nationality: Wouldn't an Englishman, or rather English person, be one who was born and raised in England? Just as an American is one who was born and raised in America, a Scottish person is one born and raised in Scotland, and an Irish person is one who was born and raised in Ireland? The nationality of your ancestors does not matter! My father was the first of his namesake lineage to be born in the States (the rest are "English"), it would be silly to say he wasn't an American because of his parents wouldn't it? Race: Biologically, there really is no such thing as race, but us humans like to think so that we can discriminate against others. The only true "race" that could call themselves American's are the Indians. It is too difficult to categorize humans by pure race unless you go back hundreds of years in history before humans were so mobile. Even then it may be difficult. The travel and interbreeding between different populations makes race a difficult concept. Regarding the term Hispanic... What is a hispanic? I would argue that it is neither race nor nationality. It is a culture that developed in America among Americans born to Mexican or Spanish ancestry, that didn't want to be labeled as either three. In our discriminating times, Hispanic sounds a lot less offensive than "Mexican" There is no nation called "Hispania" nor is their an Hispanic language. My wife's ancestry is from Mexico, but she considers herself and American, and her second language is Mexican, not Spanish or Hispanic! Something else I wondered... do those living in Mexico or Spain call themselves Hispanic? I doubt it. I have so many Nationalities in my lineage I could claim to be just whatever I wanted, but when I comes right down to it I'm just a plain old American. One could even go as far as to call me a Californian, for where I was born and raised, but that might be a different arguement entirely. Mike Gregory Bakersfield, California genealogy@bak.rr.com http://home.bak.rr.com/mg/

Mike, You aroused my curiosity with the Hispanic argument, so I called my husband's parents and asked them. Mexicans living in Mexico do call themselves Mejicanos...Mexicans...however, there is no Mexican language. Mexicans speak Espanol...Spanish. My father in law proudly refers to himself as American, although their primary language continues to be Spanish..He was born in Durango, Mexico. Personally, I like the way Bill Murray explained it in Stripes...We're MUTTS! And, yes, I'm a California girl myself, born and raised in So.Cal, transplated to the northern Caribbean...New Orleans. Thanks for all the food for thought! Marci Marci Shaw Peralez "If you can't get rid of the family skeleton, you may as well dance with it." - George Bernard Shaw ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Gregory To: SHAW-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [SHAW] England and Migration Debate To those following this thread, I think this thread has gotten off the path it took. It sounds to me as some are confusing nationality with race, or vice versa. Us humans really like labels and tend to choose the ones that suit us best. Nationality: Wouldn't an Englishman, or rather English person, be one who was born and raised in England? Just as an American is one who was born and raised in America, a Scottish person is one born and raised in Scotland, and an Irish person is one who was born and raised in Ireland? The nationality of your ancestors does not matter! My father was the first of his namesake lineage to be born in the States (the rest are "English"), it would be silly to say he wasn't an American because of his parents wouldn't it? Race: Biologically, there really is no such thing as race, but us humans like to think so that we can discriminate against others. The only true "race" that could call themselves American's are the Indians. It is too difficult to categorize humans by pure race unless you go back hundreds of years in history before humans were so mobile. Even then it may be difficult. The travel and interbreeding between different populations makes race a difficult concept. Regarding the term Hispanic... What is a hispanic? I would argue that it is neither race nor nationality. It is a culture that developed in America among Americans born to Mexican or Spanish ancestry, that didn't want to be labeled as either three. In our discriminating times, Hispanic sounds a lot less offensive than "Mexican" There is no nation called "Hispania" nor is their an Hispanic language. My wife's ancestry is from Mexico, but she considers herself and American, and her second language is Mexican, not Spanish or Hispanic! Something else I wondered... do those living in Mexico or Spain call themselves Hispanic? I doubt it. I have so many Nationalities in my lineage I could claim to be just whatever I wanted, but when I comes right down to it I'm just a plain old American. One could even go as far as to call me a Californian, for where I was born and raised, but that might be a different arguement entirely. Mike Gregory Bakersfield, California genealogy@bak.rr.com http://home.bak.rr.com/mg/ ==== SHAW Mailing List ==== ============================== Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2