Tony, I think it may be helpful to realize that any document of these types, including naturalization, passenger arrivals, etc, were often done in large groups of people, and so the person filling out the form often didn't bother to ask specific questions ..... if they knew they were Irish they just filled in what they considered the "standard" info.... usually that they were a British subject etc. So it may not actually reflect either the true situation or what the actual person said.... but more of what the transcriber put down via an assumption. I could be wrong of course... but imagine the job those people had to do..... I"d get confused eventually too! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Maura Petzolt mpetzolt2@webtv.net <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> SHAMROCK ROOTS homepage http://community.webtv.net/shamrockroots/SHAMROCKROOTS Helpful Hints for Successful Searching http://community.webtv.net/mpetzolt2/helpfulhints

I have gotten quite a few requests for information on how to get US Citizenship documents on Irish ancestors who became US citizens. Rather than answer each individually I will refer you to the excellent essay of listowner Marua, on this very same subject. http://community-2.webtv.net/mpetzolt2/naturalization/ Using US Naturalization Records Best wishes, Tony Riordan triordan@msn.com ______________________________________________________________ THE RIORDAN FAMILY GENEALOGY PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/triordan.geo/index.html

Beverly A. Hannon <bahannon@netins.net> wrote; > WHS sent baptismal information on the parents and > their children, one of whom is my gr-grandmother, all baptized at > Portlaw & Ballyduff parish. however, the man I'm meeting, a more > immediate Houlahan descendant, says he's been to Ireland 3 times, > had his dad's birth certificate(?) so knew which parish to go > to. He talked to the priest at his father's parish, and looked > at the records. he says the Houlahans I mentioned were all > baptized in Rathgormick parish. ___________________________________________________ Hi Bev, Very few lists of RC Parishes in any given Irish diocese will exactly list another list of RC Parishes. The difference is usually attributable to which time period or year is refernced. As you know, the parishes of Rathcormuch and Portlaw & Ballyduff share a long common border. For a period of time they were the same parish. Indeed, Waterford Heritage does not even list Rathcormach ( or as you spell it, Rathgormick) - even the spelling is not fixed in stone - as one of the parishes for which they have records. See the Waterford Heritage Service Web Page; http://www.iol.ie/~mnoc/ I think you could e-mail Waterford Heritage for their take on this situation. Here is my theory; tell me if I'm wrong after you check with Waterford Heritage: Their list reflects the time when the parish had different boundaries, and probably included both churches in the same parish, called Portlaw & Ballyduff. Remember, most R.C. "Parishes" in Ireland are larger than C. of I. parishes, and have more than one church. In the US we tend to assume that a Parish has only one church and when the church is gone, so is the parish. Not so in Ireland; parish boundaries are dynamic, and may include or exclude different churches as they may come and go through history. Your Waterford Heritage records will not show the church at Rathgormuch, since the list with which Waterford Heritage identifies parishes does not have such a parish. It does not have such a parish because their frame of reference is for a period of time when there was no such separate parish of that name. Your Houlihan relative is probably ALSO right. He indeed saw the records at the "church" at Rathgormuch, but at some time in it's history it was not the synonimous with the "Parish" of Rathgormuch. They likely are the same Houlihans, and indeed they probably are the same records; only called by Waterford Heritage the Parish of Portlaw & Ballyduff. Best wishes, Tony Riordan triordan@msn.com _________________________________________________________ http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~irishchurchrecords/index.html Search Irish Church Records; Tipperary, Limerick, Waterford, Clare.

I am meeting with a distant Houlahan relative next week to compare records. I had Waterford Heritage look up my Houlahan relatives. WHS sent baptismal information on the parents and their children, one of whom is my gr-grandmother, all baptized at Portlaw & Ballyduff parish. however, the man I'm meeting, a more immediate Houlahan descendant, says he's been to Ireland 3 times, had his dad's birth certificate(?) so knew which parish to go to. He talked to the priest at his father's parish, and looked at the records. he says the Houlahans I mentioned were all baptized in Rathgormick parish. Are we mixing church and civil parishes or is one of us mistaken? could they all be the same Houlahans? any clarification will be appreciated. thanks. Bev in Iowa

Richard, I saw your post regarding lookups for M through Q. I am researching in Ireland and USA about 1860 thru 1866 for Phelan, John Edward (or Edward John) and his wife Mary Katherine (or Katherine Mary). They married in Ireland and came to settle in New Bedford, Mass. He was naturalized in 1866 (I have not yet obtained those records). Area in Ireland most probably was Kilkenny, Waterford or some southern coastal county. Thanks for any assistance you can give. Carol Phelan Researching: Phelan, Whalen (and all various spellings of same), Roe, Regan, Horan, Sullivan from Ireland and Mass/RI area.

What are you volunteering to look up Arlene. I must have missed the first message. Alice

According to Peter and Fionna Frey, A History of Ireland, p. 324: "...on Easter Monday, 1949 (an Act) created the Republic of Ireland, outside the Commonwealth." Ireland history websites Presented without evaluation or endorsement http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/93/past/famine/index.htm http://www.niceone.com/irl/subcat/28/1/0/0/Archaeology.html http://www.academicinfo.net/histirish.html http://members.tripod.com/~JerryDesmond/index-2.html http://www.emeraldgolf.com/music/history/rights.html http://www.goireland.ie/low/visitorsguide/Land.htm http://kinsella.org/history/hist18.htm http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/93/past/history/19141919.html http://www.emeraldgolf.com/music/history/vikings.html My personal favorite is www.vms.utexas.edu/~jdana/irehist.html Ellen Tony Riordan wrote: > > Today I got some documents relating to the US citizenship of my > grandfather, Daniel Baldwin, immigrant from Kilrossanty Parish, Co. > Waterford. They provided some inaccurate information, some great > information which answered some of my questions, and something which > raises another question. > > The first document is his "Declaration of Intention," dated 3 Jan 1933. > It had his address, occupation, physical description, race ("Irish"), > nationality ("British") Birthplace ("Co. Waterford Ireland") Date of > birth for himself, his wife, son and daughter (every one incorrect - he > stated that he was born 13 months after the day he was baptized). It > also included his photograph. The information I appreciated most was > that it included the date he arrived in the US, the ship's name and port > of departure. The ship "Majestic," left Queenstown and arrived in New > York City on 25 Oct. 1897. > > The second document, the "Petition for Citizenship," included much of > the same information as the Declaration of Intention, was dated 26 July > 1935. > > The third document was his signed "Oath of Allegiance" his signature, on > 18 Nov. 1935. It stated that citizenship was granted, and gave his > certificate of citizenship (which I already had) number. > > The question which these last two documents raises is that, in 1935, > long after Irish political independence, his nationality is still called > "British." In particular, his oath of allegiance included the words: > > "... I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and > fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, and > particularly to George V., by the Grace of God of Great Britain and > Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas. King, Defender of > the Faith, Emperor of India." > > Did not the US recognize that the place of his birth and the place where > he had for his entire life before coming to the US was in 1935 Ireland, > a Sovereign Republic? I believe that the Irish government was > recognized by that time by the US government, didn't it? > > Or was he considered forever a British subject because he was one when > he left Ireland in 1897? > > Best wishes, > Tony Riordan > triordan@msn.com > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > **Civil Registration began in Ireland > in 1864. Before that time, you will > need to access parish registers. See > http://community.webtv.net/mpetzolt2/helpfulhints **

Last week I joined the Archive to search the census, and paid for one months subscription.Today I found out that I can only go into one year of all states for $19.99,and if I don't call at the end of the month it will automatically be continued. So buyer BEWARE. How many days does one need to go thru the 1900 census for ones family, certainly not 30 days. Lorraine

Today I got some documents relating to the US citizenship of my grandfather, Daniel Baldwin, immigrant from Kilrossanty Parish, Co. Waterford. They provided some inaccurate information, some great information which answered some of my questions, and something which raises another question. The first document is his "Declaration of Intention," dated 3 Jan 1933. It had his address, occupation, physical description, race ("Irish"), nationality ("British") Birthplace ("Co. Waterford Ireland") Date of birth for himself, his wife, son and daughter (every one incorrect - he stated that he was born 13 months after the day he was baptized). It also included his photograph. The information I appreciated most was that it included the date he arrived in the US, the ship's name and port of departure. The ship "Majestic," left Queenstown and arrived in New York City on 25 Oct. 1897. The second document, the "Petition for Citizenship," included much of the same information as the Declaration of Intention, was dated 26 July 1935. The third document was his signed "Oath of Allegiance" his signature, on 18 Nov. 1935. It stated that citizenship was granted, and gave his certificate of citizenship (which I already had) number. The question which these last two documents raises is that, in 1935, long after Irish political independence, his nationality is still called "British." In particular, his oath of allegiance included the words: "... I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, and particularly to George V., by the Grace of God of Great Britain and Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas. King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India." Did not the US recognize that the place of his birth and the place where he had for his entire life before coming to the US was in 1935 Ireland, a Sovereign Republic? I believe that the Irish government was recognized by that time by the US government, didn't it? Or was he considered forever a British subject because he was one when he left Ireland in 1897? Best wishes, Tony Riordan triordan@msn.com

I was browsing Ebay just now on their Antiquarian Rare Books area and saw a Genealogy for McCollar, McCollough, Ireland for sale for 14.99. Interesting site. Amazing things for sale there-bibles, old cemeteries, city directories. Hope I find something for myself there one of these days. Just posted in case anyone else could use it. Linda

So many of you have helped me in the past. I am truly grateful. May I impose upon a goodhearted person to help me once again. I'm looking for any listings in Griffith's for the surname HENNESSY in County Kilkenny. Thanks again for all the generous contributions of time and energy. Fran fvolper@clinicalmkt.com

Hi! I am trying to find Thomas MULLEN/Bridget TRAIS (TRAVERS) from Ireland area of Donegal, parish Drumholm PLU:Ballyshannon time period 1848 through 1866. They had three sons Patrick,Thomas and Edward. Edward was born in Glasgow Scotland in 1881. TIA, Nan tnt403@cs.com

I am looking for a marriage date and place for Hanora O'BRIEN and John FLANAGAN I am told that my O'BRIENs came from Ballyporeen. Census records show that these children were born in IL, probably Galena, JoDaviess County Mary abt 1840 James Francis 05 Apr 1844 >From Original Land Entries book for township 86 (Butler township) of Jackson County, IA Section Number Surname First Name Date of Acquisition 24-86-le FLANAGAN John 1 Sep 1845 24-86-le CALLAHAN Joseph 1 Sep 1845 24-86-le O'BRIEN Morris 1 Sep 1845 John Flanagan was married to Hanora O'Brien and Joseph Callahan was married to Margaret O'Brien, sister of Hanora. Morris (Maurice) was their brother Thank you for your generous offer to do look-ups. Debby in MO

My great grandmother on my mother's side Mary Devlin born in Ireland in the year 1880 Got married on May 24, 1900 to Charles C Oldenquist in the US in Boston MA. Died October 1, 1918 in US in Boston MA. any information would greatly appreciated. hoppy1234@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Arlene I am looking for Luke Ratigan who came to the NY, USA from Ireland in the early 1840, I think. And I am still looking to see if he came through Canada or New York. There was a Luke Ratigan in Oswego, but wrong one. Thank You Marcena Chaparral, NM

Dear Arlene, In reponse to your offer to do a look up - I am trying to find my Great Grandmother ELLEN MOONEY born circa 1839/40. On the 1881 Census in Liverpool she gives her age as 41 (this was taken in April of that year so the chances are that she was born after April 1839 and before April 1840) and place of Birth as Dublin. I have written to St. Mary's Pro Cathedral Dublin to see if I could trace her Marriage there but with no success. I now think that it is possible that she was born in County Dublin and not neccesarily the City. I would be much obliged if you could do a look up for me. Regards, Walter Brooks

Thanks for your reply Dawn,much appreciated,I did make a mistake in my last post. But it probably won't make any difference to your Bell line. It should have read like this, BELL & ELVIDGE (Elridge). David Bell and wife Margaret Elvidge and daughter Maria Amilia aged 3 arrived in Australia on the Albatross in April 1853,a son David Henry BELL was born at sea on route to Aust. David and Margaret were married in Dublin Ireland in 1846. Parents of David Bell were David Bell and Mary Bain . Parents of Margaret Elvidge were George Elvidge (Elridge) and Catherine Morrison. I had David Henry in the wrong place..;o) Regards Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray & Dawn Pocock <raydawnp@voyager.co.nz> To: <SHAMROCK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: [SH] BELL > Kathleen - although I have not found a connection to your BELL names in > Ireland, I am also researching that name but in Co Tyrone up to about 1903, > but with a missing Robert John (or John Robert) BELL in the 1901 census. He > would have been aged 20, (or 18 if he had already changed his birth year, > which he did on his original birth certificate). Son of Richard and Martha > (nee CAMPBELL) BELL, Presbyterians who married at Pomeroy, Co Tyrone in > 1877. > If anyone out there is connected to my family - I would love to hear from > you. > Regards, Dawn, Christchurch, New Zealand > > ______________________________

I made a mistake with the following message > I am looking for someone who may be connected to or who may have any info on these families. > > BELL & ELVIDGE (Elridge). David Henry Bell and wife Margaret Elvidge and daughter Maria Amilia aged 3 arrived in Australia on the Albatross in April 1853. They were married in Dublin Ireland in 1846. Parents of David Henry Bell(b at sea about 1853) were David Bell and Mary Bain . Parents of Margaret Elvidge were George Elvidge (Elridge) and Catherine Morrison. It should read like this BELL & ELVIDGE (Elridge). David Bell and wife Margaret Elvidge and daughter Maria Amilia aged 3 arrived in Australia on the Albatross in April 1853,a son David Henry BELL was born at sea on route to Aust. David and Margaret were married in Dublin Ireland in 1846. Parents of David Bell were David Bell and Mary Bain . Parents of Margaret Elvidge were George Elvidge (Elridge) and Catherine Morrison. > > Any info would be greatly appreciated > > Regards > > Kathy > > ______________________________

Civil registration of births, deaths and marriages in Ireland names the townland that is the address in rural Ireland. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormons, has copies of almost all of the General Register Office indices and some registers, making direct access to both registers and indices possible through the local Family History Centers. You can do-it-yourself at the local Family History Centers because the FHL has acquired Irish civil registration records. There are Family History Centers scattered throughout the world, located in the LDS meeting-houses. The FHCs are generally listed in the local phonebook under Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints with its own phone number. Or, go to familysearch.org. In some communities, Family Search is in the local public library. No charge is made for using the resources at the local FHC except for a rental fee for microfilm from the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. Birth certificates include the date and place of birth; the name; the sex; the name, surname and residence of the father; the name, surname, maiden surname of the mother; the rank, profession or occupation of the father; and the name and qualifications of the informant, usually a family member. A given name was not obligatory, so some entries are Kelly, Male or Clarke, Female. The FHLC holds microfilm copies of the Birth Index 1864-1955; Records 1864-1881 and 1900-1955 (note the gaps 1882-1899 and 1913-1930 in the FHLC). Some pages are missing from 1869: p. 49-50 (gap between Carroll, John, of Dungannon and Carvill, James Richard, of Limerick; and all pages following Thompson, Elenor Jane, of Belfast. If you search the Index and can identify your target, note the name, district, volume and page. Then, determine the appropriate FHLC microfilm number. You may then complete the "Request to Photocopy" following the instructions to the letter and mail it with a check for $2.00. In addition, some parts of the early years of birth registrations appear to be included in the International Genealogical Index. A certain proportion of all three categories, births, marriages and deaths, simply went unregistered. It is impossible to be sure how much is not there, since the thoroughness of local registration depended very much on local conditions and on the individuals responsible, but experience in crosschecking from other sources such as parish and census records suggests that as much as 10 to 15 per cent of marriages and births simply do not appear in the registers. Foreign applications: Fees are payable in Irish pound currency, Draft I.E.P. or Euro checks or bank drafts drawn on an Irish Bank, made payable to the Registrar General. Sterling checks, Postal Orders, US$ checks are accepted. The minimum amount for a check drawn on a non-Irish bank is 12.70 Euro. I bundle my requests so that I meet the minimum fee. Births, Death and Roman Catholic marriages certificates are available from General Registrar Office 8-11 Lombard Street East Dublin 2 Ireland Before 1864 you must use other sources to find/verify information, see http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlwat/instruct.htm Birth certificates include the date and place of birth; the name; the sex; the name, surname and residence of the father; the name, surname, maiden surname of the mother; the rank, profession or occupation of the father; and the name and qualifications of the informant, usually a family member. A given name was not obligatory, so some entries are Kelly, Male or Clarke, Female. The FHLC holds microfilm copies of the index and certificates for 1864-1955. Marriage certificates include the date and place of marriage; groom's name, age, marital status, occupation or title, and residence; bride's name, marital status, age, occupation or title, and residence. The names of the fathers of both parties and their occupations or titles are given which makes them particularly relevant to genealogy. The church and the names of two witnesses are also listed. Witnesses to the marriage are commonly family members and may add clues to family linkages. Full age indicates that the person was at least 21 years old. A photocopy of an entry will contain the same details as a certificate but is not suitable for administrative matters. However, it is ideal for genealogical purposes. Photocopy (including search fee) is Irpunts 3.0 and Certificate (including search fee) is Irpunts 5.50. http://eurotrip.com/exchangerates.html or http://quote.yahoo.com/m3?u or http://www3.travelocity.com/converter/ to get the currency exchange rate for the day as it is changing weekly. Certificates (B, M, D) IR5.50 US$6.00 Photocopy of an entry in Register 3.00 3.30 When index reference is Supplied 1.50 1.65 Short Birth Certificate 3.50 3.85 Authentication of a certificate 1.50 1.55 Postage: United Kingdom & Ireland IRL .50 (E).63 All other countries: 1.00 1.27 Ellen Copyright Ó 2000 Ellen Naliboff All rights reserved Civil registration of births, Catholic marriages and deaths began in Ireland in 1864. The master indices for the entire country, produced at the General Register Office in Dublin, are indices now used for public research. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormons, has copies of almost all of the General Register Office indices and some registers, making direct access to both registers and indices possible through the local Family History Centers. Research in a Family History Center can often be more fruitful, and less costly, than a visit to the General Register Office itself. In addition, some parts of the early years of birth registrations appear to be included in the International Genealogical Index. A certain proportion of all three categories, births, marriages and deaths, simply went unregistered. It is impossible to be sure how much is not there, since the thoroughness of local registration depended very much on local conditions and on the individuals responsible, but experience in crosschecking from other sources such as parish and census records suggests that as much as 10 to 15 per cent of marriages and births simply do not appear in the registers. Ellen hoppy1234@juno.com wrote: > > My great grandmother on my mother's side > Mary Devlin born in Ireland in the year 1880 > Got married on May 24, 1900 to Charles C > Oldenquist in the US in Boston MA. > Died October 1, 1918 in US in Boston MA. > any information would greatly appreciated. > hoppy1234@juno.com > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > ** SHAMROCK ROOTS homepage http://community.webtv.net/shamrockroots/SHAMROCKROOTS

I am trying to find info about Caroline Clements, she was born in Ireland, possibly Dublin, and came to live in West Yorks.. She was married to William Birkin and amongst their children was my Grandfather, Percy Birkin born 1898. A kind lady on your list advised me to obtain her Death Certificate, which possibly might give me further details. This I have done, and at least it has given me her possible year of birth, 1865. Can anyone possibly help me further? I would really appreciate it. Best Wishes Janet