Not always Frances. My husband's Irish grandmother was Francis - we have her signature on her marriage certificate (and she was quite literate). The officiating minister had filled in the document as Frances, though. Regards, Margery in Australia

The names and spellings has generated a great deal of interest and comment. I am a retired teacher and can give you three rules to follow, particularly in the southern US: 1. You will find exceptions if you think of ALWAYS in the spelling of a name. I have the middle name Francis, and have had girls spell their name with an I. 2. The same rule applies when you assume that EVERYONE does it-such as using the maiden Name, as the middle name by married women. If you want to have fun, try tracking a Hspanic tree where the son's take the MOTHERS maiden name, and in recent times the Fathers. 3. Common pronunciation of a name will not always be the way the family pronouces THEIR name-Jordan, in this area is pronounced Jerdan. Keep a good sense of humor. You will need it. Michael Francis Harkins ( which should be Harkin)

Dear Friends, I've just spent years chasing the wrong surname because I believed that the name listed in a Christening was the mother's maiden name. It turns out it was her MOTHER'S maiden name, and the entry did not have the young woman's maiden name listed. She was married to a Clark, but the 'Mother's maiden name" question which refers to the present mother, was answered giving the baby's grandmother's maiden name. Perhaps the young mother misunderstood the question. This case involved a young girl from Ireland coming to Canada. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: [SH] middle names and "maiden" names > In a message dated 10/18/2002 7:02:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > > > (who'd *really* confuse people if she wrote "Leslie Allen > > HARTTEN" > > in the files instead of "Leslie Marie ALLEN"!) > > -- > > That's true, you would! Especially with names that can be either a forename or a surname. I am currently working on a database of marriage and death records for the local history library in NY where I work, and it is confusing in a death notice to know whether the woman was given a listed middle name at birth to honor someone in the family or whether it is her maiden name. > > Janet C-S > > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > **Civil Registration began in Ireland > in 1864. Before that time, you will > need to access parish registers. See > http://community.webtv.net/mpetzolt2/helpfulhints ** > >

Interesting, my 2G Grandmother was Abigail Gertrude and was called Gertrude. Her sister was Sarah Rebecca, known as Rebecca. Their brother was William Emmett, called Emmett. Another brother was Charles Ferren, for awhile he was called Fern. Best wishes, Dennis Reiley [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 3:47 PM Subject: [SH] another name use > Have just read somewhere that women were commonly called by their middle name > not first name. Therefore when married, their maiden name would be used as > their middle name with married name last. > > Always been that way here. > ANN > > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > ** To contact the listowner send a > message to [email protected] ** >

I agree you cannot count on spellings being proper for the sex of the person. I have a female cousin who spells her name Beverley, normally the male spelling. She had a great uncle whose name was spelled Beverly, normally the female spelling. Errors tend to continue because they cause a mind set. Even today you'll find given names misspelled because the parents didn't know how it was spelled and spelled it how they thought it sounded. You can probably even find someone who will argue that I've got the spelling reversed. Best wishes, Dennis Reiley [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: [SH] Frances/Francis > In a message dated 10/18/2002 7:02:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > > > My apology for misspelling the female version of Frances.> > > The female form is not ALWAYS Frances. I have a woman friend who spells her name Francis. She said the name (either spelling) is not common where she comes from (Arkansas) and that is just the way her parents spelled it. So you never know! > > Janet C-S > > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > ** To unsubscribe from this list send > unsubscribe to > [email protected] for > regular mode, or > [email protected] for > digest ** >

Here is an easy way to remember which is correct. Frances- e is for her Francis- i is for him Another Frances Retired teacher

Hi everyone! My homepage URL is listed at the end of this post. So far I am researching 2 Irish surnames. As far as I know, they are from Northern Ireland. I'm not sure exactly where in Northern Ireland. The first name...BAIRD. I have my gg grandparents as John and Margaret BAIRD. They were both born in Ireland about 1845. I find them living on Prime (Ellsworth) Street in the 1880 Philadelphia, PA. census. According to 1900 Phila., PA. census info, widow Margaret, who's maiden name I don't know, came to the USA in 1867. My BAIRD family tree is as follows...I'm still looking through census images to find spouses and cousins.     1      John Baird    1845 - Unknown                + Margaret ?    1845 - Unknown     ...    2      Thomas Baird    1871 - ...    2      Annie Baird    1872 - ...    2      Margaret Baird    1874 - .......        +Frederick Kircher    1875 - ........    3      Mary Kircher    1900 - ........    3      Margaret Kircher    1902 - ............        +Louis Moore     ........    3      Frederick Kircher    1904 - ........    3      Anna Kircher    1906 - ............        +William Bowen     ........    3      John Kircher    1908 - ............        +Cassy Beatty     ........    3      Catherine Kircher    1910 - ............        +John / Jake Cusack     ........    3      Louis Robert Kircher    1913 - 1982 ............        +Ella Margaret Jordan    1919 - ...    2      Robert Baird    1877 - ...    2      Martha Baird    1878 - The 2nd family is JORDAN. The 1880 Philadelphia census is the only census I found so far on him and his wife Josephine. Thomas was born in Ireland about 1835 and his wife Josephine was born in PA. about 1857. Both of my gg grandparents had died before 1900 while 2 of their children were still pretty young. I find most of the children living with Josephine's mother Matie RICKERTON/RICHARDSON (writing is hard to understand) at 316 Oregon Avenue. My JORDAN family tree is as follows...     1      Thomas Jordan    1835 according to 1880 Phila., PA. census ..        +Josephine Richardson/Rickerton    1853 according to 1880 Phila.,PA. census...            2      Florence Jordan    1873 - .......        +Joseph McClellan    1875 - Unknown ...        *2nd Husband of Florence Jordan:     .......        +? Farrell     ........    3      child Farrell     ........    3      child Farrell     ...    2      Thomas W. Jordan    1875 - Unknown .......        +Emily    1880 - Unknown ........    3      Thomas Jordan    1909 - Unknown ............        +Ella    1909 - Unknown .............    4      Iris Jordan    1926 - .............    4      Thomasina Jordan    1927 - ...    2      William Jordan    1877 - .......        +Margaret Weikel    1881 - ........    3      John Jordan    1905 - 1910 ........    3      William Jordan    1906 - ............        +Louise McWilliams     ........    3      Thomas Jordan    1908 - ............        +Ann Dilesse     ........    3      Joseph Jordan    1911 - ............        +Marie Shea     .............    4      Joseph Jordan     .............    4      John Jordan     ........        *2nd Wife of Joseph Jordan:     ............        +Catherine ?     .............    4      Diane Jordan     .............    4      Patrick Jordan     .............    4      George Jordan     .............    4      William Jordan     .............    4      Joanne Jordan     ........    3      Margaret Jordan    1913 - ........    3      Louis Jordan    1915 - ............        +Cass McGoghlin     ........    3      Earl Jordan    1916 - ............        +Emma Younger     .............    4      Earl Jordan Jr.     ........    3      Ella Margaret Jordan    1918 - ............        +Louis Robert Kircher    1913 - 1982 .............    4      Ella Marguerite Kircher    1939 - .................        +James Joseph Coleman    1940 - 1988 .......................    5    Ella Coleman  1966 (Me!)   .............    4      Louis Kircher    1948 - .................        +Maureen Coco    about 1948 ........    3      Roy Jordan    1924 - ...    2      Sloan Jordan    1879 - ...    2      Howard Jordan    1881 - Unknown .......        +Mary    1886 - Unknown ........    3      Howard Jordan    1915 - ........    3      Edna Jordan    1917 - ...    2      Anna May Jordan    1885 - If anyone has a connection or any info, I'd love to hear from you. Take care and good luck, Ella http://members.aol.com/ella12866/index.html

Have just read somewhere that women were commonly called by their middle name not first name. Therefore when married, their maiden name would be used as their middle name with married name last. Always been that way here. ANN

In a message dated 10/18/2002 7:02:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > (who'd *really* confuse people if she wrote "Leslie Allen > HARTTEN" > in the files instead of "Leslie Marie ALLEN"!) > -- That's true, you would! Especially with names that can be either a forename or a surname. I am currently working on a database of marriage and death records for the local history library in NY where I work, and it is confusing in a death notice to know whether the woman was given a listed middle name at birth to honor someone in the family or whether it is her maiden name. Janet C-S

In a message dated 10/18/2002 7:02:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > My apology for misspelling the female version of Frances.> The female form is not ALWAYS Frances. I have a woman friend who spells her name Francis. She said the name (either spelling) is not common where she comes from (Arkansas) and that is just the way her parents spelled it. So you never know! Janet C-S

I believe it depends on the purpose of the correspondence. For social purposes, Emily Post says Sarah Ann Jones who marries John Smith becomes Sarah Jones Smith (Mrs. John Smith). (That's how my mother -- a very proper lady -- always signed my report cards!) For genealogical purposes, I think the custom is to use just the woman's birth name e.g. Sarah Ann Jones married to John Smith. I notice that my kids' birth certificates carry only mother's maiden name. (And we were very much married, thank you very much.) Candace McCarthy King

Steve B.--I was taught way back in my younger days in New England that the only proper way would be: Francis Johnson Wrixon, i.e., a woman drops her middle name when she gets married. However, for gen purposes I would opt to include the middle name as well. -- polly -- Polly Shaw Office: 703-549-9292 x259 Northern Virginia MailTo:[email protected] Web: http://www.pollyshaw.com Outgoing mail scanned by Norton 2002

For genealogical purposes, I list all women by their maiden names (so my great-aunt is Mildred Agnes KIELY, not Mildred Agnes LHUILLIER or some permutation of that). The marriage relationship shows up elsewise in the files. If I don't know a woman's maiden name, I usually give her a last name of UNKNOWNx (where x=1,2,3, ...) until I figure it out. I think I'm up to UNKNOWN20 or so. I find this method actually makes it easier to think of blood lines, since I'm always refering to people by the last name they were born with. As an aside, Aunt Mil (who gave me most of the genealogical info that I know about my mother's family) always referred to her nieces by their maiden names. Somewhere in the last year or so, perhaps even on this list, I read that it's an Irish Thing to do that. Maybe, maybe not ... Cheers, Leslie (who'd *really* confuse people if she wrote "Leslie Allen HARTTEN" in the files instead of "Leslie Marie ALLEN"!) -- Leslie M. Hartten CIRES, Univ. of Colorado email: [email protected] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Researching family names Allen, Glennon, Kiely, Luce, Morgan, Murray, Supple Hartten, Hrasar, Majdec, Sarc, Schwettman, Vidensek

The many responses were appreciated. My apology for misspelling the female version of Frances. Steve B

Hi Nancy; I obtained my Irish citizenship through Grandparent but was told that only I could do this, my children could not get theirs through me. Regards, Mary

The female spelling of the name is usually "Frances". As for maiden name usage, (nee Johnson) would be an alternative. Joe Mansfield ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Balsbaugh" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:58 PM Subject: [SH] Maiden Name Format > What is the preferred format for including a maiden name in correspondence? > > For example my ggg-grandmother was Francis Anne Johnson before she married James Charles Wrixon. > > Is "Francis Anne (Johnson) Wrixon" correct? Are there better alternatives? > > Steve B > > > ==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== > ** Visit TIARA for many helpful links > http://www.tiara.ie ** > >

In a message dated 10/16/2002 3:58:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: << Is "Francis Anne (Johnson) Wrixon" correct? Are there better alternatives? >> I'd include "Francis Anne(Nee Johnson) Wrixon" Bob

What is the preferred format for including a maiden name in correspondence? For example my ggg-grandmother was Francis Anne Johnson before she married James Charles Wrixon. Is "Francis Anne (Johnson) Wrixon" correct? Are there better alternatives? Steve B

Registration of non-Catholic marriages began in 1845 in Ireland. Registration of births, marriages and deaths, regardless of religion, began January 1, 1864. Certificates for births, marriages and deaths for all of Ireland until 1922 and for the Republic since 1922 are housed in Dublin. Belfast has the records for Northern Ireland from 1922 to present in addition to the all Ireland records from 1864-1922. Civil registration of births, deaths and marriages in Ireland names the townland that is the address in rural Ireland. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, the Mormons, has copies of almost all of the General Register Office indices and some registers, making direct access to both registers and indices possible through the local Family History Centers. Louth County Library, Roden Place, Dundalk, Co. Louth Ireland has the index to parish sacramental registers. I suggest an e-mail to [email protected] When you know the townland, you can search the 1901 and 1911 Census of Ireland for the same place where he had lived. Ellen [email protected] wrote: >I am looking for information on my great grandfather (William Alexander) >Smartt (Smart) and my great-great grandparents John Smart and Margaret Anne >Prott. > >William A. Smart (later Smartt, somehow an extra 't' was added) b. 8/22/1876 >-Old Bridge, Meath, Ireland . Arrived in USA 1894. d. 8/30/59. He had 10 >children: Arthur, Charles, William George, Edith, Nellie, Florence, >Catherine, Isabella, Ira, Edward. > >I have a copy of his birth certificate which shows John Smart and Margaret >Anne Prott as parents. Birth was registered in the district of Saint Mary's >in the Superintendent Registrar's District of Drogheda in the County of >Meath. > >I've been told that William had a sister who also came to the US and >eventually married and moved to Canada. > >I haven't been able to find out any information on either of them. Can >anyone help or point me in the right direction? > >Thanx for your help in advance. > > >Kate Sandoval > >"I used to waste my time, now I golf" > > >==== SHAMROCK Mailing List ==== >** SHAMROCK ROOTS homepage http://community.webtv.net/shamrockroots/SHAMROCKROOTS > > __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

Looking for information/connections of Patrick FEE. Appears Patrick was born Co Mayo, Ireland 1829-1835 possibly immigrated to Canada where some of the family may still live in the Hamilton area. Patrick FEE enlisted in Co D 67th Ohio Infantry Volunteers in Toledo Ohio, was wounded in South Carolina 1863 and was discharged in Richmond, Virginia in 1865. His pension papers indicate that he might have been born March 11, 1829 somewhere in County Mayo, Ireland. Although throughout the papers his age changes. In one place he states he was 27 when he enlisted in 1862 which would indicate he was born in 1835. He was wounded in the charge at Ft..Wagner Morris Island, SC and suffered considerably for the rest of his life. His leg was shattered below right knee, he limped and had considerable difficulty in walking. He could not stand and could not do manual labor. He also had lumbago, rheumatism in both arms and shoulders, impaired vision and heart disease. It appears his only income was the military pension which was $6 to 15 a month. He resided at National Military Soldiers Home in Leavenworth Kansas and in Columbus, Montgomery County, Ohio. He also resided at 521 Franklin Ave and 839 South Ewing Ave, St. Louis, Missouri. He visited with his sister Ann FEE LAW WALTON 603 Luzerne St. Scranton, PA. The pension papers indicate that 1876-1886 he resided with relatives in the Southern part of Arkansas living off their charitable efforts. It appears he might have spent his final years at the National Military Home in Ohio living to at least 1907 when he claimed to be 78 years old. Patrick sister Ann FEE m LAW in Canada c 1845; m Robert WALTON c 1848 in Hawley, PA they lived in Scranton, PA. His sister Helen FEE m William BRENNAN c 1852 in Hawley, PA. Walton J. Sullivan at [email protected] Paternal - SULLIVAN, COLEMAN, CUMMINGS, O'BRIEN, BOLD, BLACK, BRENNAN, CAFFREY, CAVENEY, CARROLL, CORBETT, CROWE, DISKIN, DONEGAN, FEE, GABRIEL, GIBLIN, GORMAN, GERRITY, GREP, JENKINS, JENNINGS, LAW, LYNCH, MC GREEVEY, MC NALLY, O'CONNOR, PHILBIN, REGAN, ROLAND, SHEA, SHIELDS, STAFFORD, STANTON, STEINHAUSER, WALTON, WEISS, PA-Old Forge, Minooka, Taylor, Scranton, Hawley, Mt. Pleasant, Pittsburgh; NY-Kingston, New Amsterdam; Wales-Rhymney, Tredegar PA-Old Forge, Minooka, Taylor, Scranton, Hawley, Mt. Pleasant, Pittsburgh; NY-Kingston, New Amsterdam http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=wsullivw http://www.gencircles.com/users/wsullivw http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/s/u/l/Walton--J-Sullivan/index.html