Hi Bruce, Firstly, apologies for giving the impression that you had loked at the Penninghame OPRs for me. I knew that you hadn't, a case of clumsy text!! Re Elizabeth McLellan (various spellings). The sequence of my find was: 1) An Elizabeth Kelly 44 b. Ireland appears on the 1861 census as James wife at Ivy Bank Cottages, Minnigaff along with his children William 24, Joseph 20, James 17 and Jane 12. James was a widower on the 1851 census. 2) Elizabeth Clellan married James Kelly 31 May 1851 Minnigaff (IGI). 3) James Kelly(ie) 61, 'widower' on 1871 census Creebridge, Minnigaff living with daughter Margaret Neilson and her family plus James Kelly 5, grandson b, Kirkmabreck (child of his son William/ Margaret Hyslop?) 4) Found death cert. 14 October 1868 Creebridge, Minnigaff for Elizabeth Kelly 52, married to James Kelly, parents William McLellan/MaryDunlop, both deceased. 5)James own death cert 8 March 1878 at Creebridge gives widower of Margaret Hannah, no mention of Elizabeth!! 6)Later found James and Elizabeth had their own daughter Mary chr.22 August 1854(IGI) and died 1859 Minnigaff (Scot. People) 7)Going back to the 1851 census I found Elizabeth McLelland 34 b. Ireland living alone with her mother Mary 58 b.Ireland a pauper living at Newton Stewart Cotton Mill. 8) McLelland family living in Newton Stewart on 1841 census. William53 ag. lab. b.Ireland Mary 50 b. Ireland Elizabeth 25 b. Ireland James22 ag. lab. b.WGT William 18 h.l.w. b.WGT Robert 15 h.l.w. b. WGT Alexander 9 b. WGT The only other McLelland in NS was Margaret 20 b.WGT servant High Street. 9)The Elizabeth McClellan 47 you mention in Kirkcowan in 1851 was born in P'hame and I have now found the other in 1851 b. Ireland with the right parents. The Kirkcowan one was married to James Kelly on 25 March 1839 in Kirkcowan(IGI) and appears as his wife there in 1841 and 1861, so being referred to by her maiden name in 1851 is strange- a typical census error!! In fact she was chr. 13 October 1803 Penninghame parents John McClellan/Elizabeth Simpson who were married 9Sept 1792 P'hame(all IGI). I think therefore that James age 9 Kirkcowan in 1851 is an entirely different person to my relative. Great pity, as like you, I enjoy a convoluted family tree. Many thanks for the idea. Regards, Malcolm >From: Bruce McDowall <Bruce_McDowall@huntsman.com> >To: SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE@rootsweb.com >CC: <malcolmlockerbie@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Kellys of Penninghame >Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 12:27:54 +1100 > > >Hi Malcolm, > >You have misinterpreted something I wrote, in that I haven't yet looked for >your records in the Penninghame OPR. I have only looked at the IGI, to see >what can be anticipated from the OPRs. >The IGI marriage record for James KELLY & Margaret HANNAY has been >extracted from the Penninghame OPR, so we know that record is there to >check. I can do that for you on my next visit to the library. >As the IGI has no baptism record for the birth of James abt 1843, or abt >1810, it is most unlikely there is a record of them in the OPR. I see that >there are such records for John 1834, William 1837, Joseph 1841, Margaret >1846, and Jane 1849, so I can check those for you. > >I really love problems with a special twist . . . . >Whilst looking at the IGI, I noted that 1851 marriage of James KELLY & >Elizabeth McCLELLAN, and wondered if it was the same James KELLY. I also >noted that a James KELLY was baptised in Kirkcowan parish to James KELLY & >Elizabeth McCLELLAN in 1841. Although I didn't mention this in my off-list >message, I had intended to look at the Kirkcowan OPR to see if this was an >illegitimate birth. It could be just coincidence that another couple were >involved, but I wondered if it could be the same James, and he eventually >married Elizabeth when free to do so. > >Now that you have said that your James KELLY is the one who married >Elizabeth McCLELLAN, I am wondering if you already have proof of this? >Does James' death registration name both wives? >Do you have the 1861 and 1871 census details? >If so, does either show children of both Margaret HANNAY and Elizabeth >McCLELLAN in the same household? >James KELLY born Penninghame abt 1843, and James KELLY born Kirkcowan 1841, >both appear in the 1851 census. I wonder if you have them both in 1861 >and/or 1871? (I had wondered if they were the same person, as although not >a good age match, could have explained the lack of baptism record for the >one born abt 1843. The 1851 census seems to have resolved this, although I >do want to look at the original of that record also.) > >If it was your James KELLY who fathered the James KELLY in 1841, there >should be mention of it in the Kirkcowan Kirk Session Records, which are >held in National Archives, Edinburgh. If you can't vist Edinburgh, it may >be best to get a professional researcher to do a lookup. >First, I need to take a look see what that Kirkcowan baptism record has to >say. That may be at the coming weekend, but could be later. > >Regards, >Bruce > >__________________ >Extract from original listing referred to by Bruce.... >>'James father was James Kelly b.1810/11 in Penninghame (from census data >only), to William Kelly/Margaret McKay,according to his 1878 death >certificate. James married 5.10.1834 in Penninghame(IGI) to Margaret >Hannah/y b. 1815/6 Penninghame? > >Margaret died between the birth of her last child Jane b.18.2.1849 >Penninghame and the 1851 Census in Minnigaff where James was a 'WIdower'. >James remarried to Elizabeth McLellan 31.5.1851 in Minnigaff. She died in >1868.' > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows Live Mail http://ideas.live.com