Hi Bruce, Thanks for your kind comments, like you I find family history seaching much easier if you do things in a logical order and have a good filing system. Easier said than done, however I was fortunate enough to have been a project engineer before retiring and this was part of the job!! The informant on James death certificate was his son James who had lived at home with step mother Elizabeth in 1861. You are probably right, a case of disapproval or non-acceptance of a second wife. Regards, Malcolm >From: Bruce McDowall <Bruce_McDowall@huntsman.com> >To: SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE@rootsweb.com >CC: <malcolmlockerbie@hotmail.com> >Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Kellys of Penninghame >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:46:21 +1100 > > >Hi Malcolm, > >You have set out this information very well. Rather than clumsy text, this >is a good example for other listers. >I see that you have not only already resolved the matter of the >coincidental couples, but much more. That simplifies my task in looking up >the appropriate OPR records, although not as much fun :-) > >It is interesting that although you have established your James KELLY >indeed married a second wife, she is not mentioned on his death >registration. Was the informant one of his children, or perhaps someone who >was unaware of his second marriage? If one of his children, maybe he/she >didn't think much about his/her stepmother. > >As for wives being recorded in the cernsus under their maiden name, this is >not unusual. It depended a lot on the attitude of the enumerator, and so >the incidence of it is found in clusters in some enumeration districts. >That being said, the enumerator was also limited in what he recorded by the >information supplied by the head of household, or whoever else filled in or >assisted with the filling in of the household schedule. In Scotland, >married women continued to be known by their maiden names for many >purposes, and in some records, this was the norm. Baptism records in the >OPRs are such an instance. > >Regards, >Bruce > >__________________ > > >Hi Bruce, > >Firstly, apologies for giving the impression that you had loked at the >Penninghame OPRs for me. I knew that you hadn't, a case of clumsy text!! > >Re Elizabeth McLellan (various spellings). The sequence of my find was: > >1) An Elizabeth Kelly 44 b. Ireland appears on the 1861 census as James >wife >at Ivy Bank Cottages, Minnigaff along with his children William 24, Joseph >20, James 17 and Jane 12. James was a widower on the 1851 census. > >2) Elizabeth Clellan married James Kelly 31 May 1851 Minnigaff (IGI). > >3) James Kelly(ie) 61, 'widower' on 1871 census Creebridge, Minnigaff >living >with daughter Margaret Neilson and her family plus James Kelly 5, grandson >b, Kirkmabreck (child of his son William/ Margaret Hyslop?) > >4) Found death cert. 14 October 1868 Creebridge, Minnigaff for Elizabeth >Kelly 52, married to James Kelly, parents William McLellan/MaryDunlop, both >deceased. > >5)James own death cert 8 March 1878 at Creebridge gives widower of Margaret >Hannah, no mention of Elizabeth!! > >6)Later found James and Elizabeth had their own daughter Mary chr.22 August >1854(IGI) and died 1859 Minnigaff (Scot. People) > >7)Going back to the 1851 census I found Elizabeth McLelland 34 b. Ireland >living alone with her mother Mary 58 b.Ireland a pauper living at Newton >Stewart Cotton Mill. > >8) McLelland family living in Newton Stewart on 1841 census. >William53 ag. lab. b.Ireland >Mary 50 b. Ireland >Elizabeth 25 b. Ireland >James22 ag. lab. b.WGT >William 18 h.l.w. b.WGT >Robert 15 h.l.w. b. WGT >Alexander 9 b. WGT >The only other McLelland in NS was Margaret 20 b.WGT servant High Street. > >9)The Elizabeth McClellan 47 you mention in Kirkcowan in 1851 was born in >P'hame and I have now found the other in 1851 b. Ireland with the right >parents. The Kirkcowan one was married to James Kelly on 25 March 1839 in >Kirkcowan(IGI) and appears as his wife there in 1841 and 1861, so being >referred to by her maiden name in 1851 is strange- a typical census error!! >In fact she was chr. >13 October 1803 Penninghame parents John McClellan/Elizabeth Simpson who >were married 9Sept 1792 P'hame(all IGI). I think therefore that James age 9 >Kirkcowan in 1851 is an entirely different person to my relative. > >Great pity, as like you, I enjoy a convoluted family tree. Many thanks for >the idea. > >Regards, >Malcolm > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail is evolving – check out the new Windows Live Mail http://ideas.live.com

Hi, I tried this message before so I have erased all http links I believe this is what caused it to crash before. Might get struck off the wig list. No No. Anyway just an ancient tale of the Kelly in Galloway taken from another list dna-genealogy. By the way if you are into dna and genealogy this line may be R1b1c7-that is the type of male or y chromosome just guessing from the by line on the original email. In a message from l merle @comcast.net writes: "In any case the Irish one asked the Scots about his roots. The Scots said his family 'recalled' that they had come from Ireland with Saint Ninian about 700 AD to convert the Scots. The Irish Kelly told him that they had oral history of them leaving in 700 AD with St. Ninian to convert the Scots. So 1000 years later, they return. That's not long for DNA." St Ninian was in Whithorn, Galloway in early 400s and long dead by the 700s. St Patricks arrive late 400s. St Columba went to Iona in 563 so he is too early as well. In 700 Synod of Whitby gave Galloway/England to Roman Church and the Celtic Church retreated from England and Galloway- taking some saxain priests with them see Tysaxon in Mayo. Careful though saxain means foreign rather than just anglo saxon http= //homepage.eircom.net/~foregan/history/tysaxon (get rid of = and space) I would say under the story is some truth- I would guess that the Irish Kelly? may have returned from St Ninian's "Casa Candida- or seminary/monastery in Whithorn in 700 after it became Roman Catholic rather than Celtic Christian and the locals replaced by Bernicians(?). I wonder if your guys are the foreigners like the ones who went to Tysaxon. Many must also have gone to Co Down and Downpatrick etc where the Celtic Church had centres and continued on for a few hundred years. The Scots Kelly relating that they too had gone to Whithorn likely earlier than 700. Interesting even in Viking times the Christians from all over were still doing pilgrimage to Whithorn. They had a big trade in souvenirs- including the Whithorn comb and a fine trade in cat fur that they farmed. http= //www.itvregions.com/NR/rdonlyres/A7E5DC6A-9B3F-4807-BE14-5D1F7ADFD31D/0/vik ing0505 It may well be that many people after the Synod of Whitby in 700 CE wishing to remain within the Celtic Church left Bernicia, Galloway etc and went to Co Down, etc. The religious themselves dispersing further to their Monasteries or Houses eg Tysaxon. There is plenty of precedence for immigration following religious persecution. Brian Quinn