Hi Listers, This was known as a'Sumptuary Law', or belonging to cost or expense and often addressed what was then seen as excess or waste, in this case food. An extract from the online 'Classic Encyclopedia' describes the background to the 1433 act. ......Already in the reign of Edward II. a proclamation had been issued against the " outrageous and excessive multitude of meats and dishes which the great men of the kingdom had used, and still used, in their castles," as well as " persons of inferior rank imitating their example, beyond what their stations required and their circumstances could afford "; and the rule was laid down that the great men should have but two courses of flesh meat served up to their tables, and on fish days two courses of fish, each course consisting of but two kinds. In 1336 Edward III. attempted also to legislate against luxurious living, and in 1363, at the same time when costumes were regulated, it was enacted that the servants of gentlemen, merchants and artificers should have only one meal of flesh or fish in the day, and that their other food should consist of milk, butter and cheese. Similar acts to those above mentioned were passed in Scotland also. In 1433 (temp. James I.), by an act of a parliament which sat at Perth, the manner of living of all orders in Scotland was prescribed, and in particular the use of pies and baked meats, which had been only lately introduced into the country, was forbidden to all under the rank of baron. In 1457 (temp. James II.) an act was passed against " sumptuous cleithing." A Scottish sumptuary law of 1621 was the last of the kind in Great Britain.... The wonders of Google!! Cannot find what 'cleithing' is however, any academics out there?? Malcolm >From: "Maisie Egger" <campsiehills@sbcglobal.net> >To: "T & J Agnew" <agnewtj@xtra.co.nz>, <dianahhenry@btinternet.com>, > <"'sct-wigtownshire@roots'"@mail.rootsweb.com>, >"sct-wigtownshire@rootsweb.com" <sct-wigtownshire@rootsweb.com> >Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Why Pies? Why providing? >Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 14:39:26 -0700 > > > I dunno, but I'd like to hazard a guess that the "peasants" very rarely >had meat, as only the upper crust could afford it, plus they were not >allowed to hunt on land that they did not own. The highlanders, for >example, kept scrawny cows, got the milk from same, then curds and whey, >thence to cheese. They also lived on kale and cabbage. If the crofter >helped himself to the land's bounty for rabbit and deer, for example, the >consequences could be dire. > > Like meat, potatoes were considered to be a scarce commodity for the >poor, >but by the mid-1700s they were very much a part of the diet. >Unfortunately, >the Irish did not seem to have such a diverse "table," and when the blight >hit in the mid-to-late 1800s it was disastrous. It is seldom mentioned >that >this blight also affected Britain and parts of Europe. > > I stand corrected on the above as I am not an agrarian and am just >picking >my brains as to why the barons and lords and ladies ate pies and the >hoi-polloi did not. > > Maisie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T & J Agnew" <agnewtj@xtra.co.nz> > To: "'DIANA HENRY'" <dianahhenry@btinternet.com>; >"'sct-wigtownshire@roots'" <Sct-Wigtownshire@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Why Pies? Why providing? > > > > Dear Listers, > > I love the little Scottish history snippets but reading "A Scottish >law >of > > 1433 prohibited provision of pies to anyone under the rank of baron." >Left > > me writhing with curiosity. > > What was so special about pies that only barons and above could have >them? > > [Today we regard them as a handy way of using up odd bits of meat, >etc. >Were > > they different in 1433?] > > "Provision": Was it providing them that was illegal i.e. anybody could >eat > > them but it was illegal to provide them to non-nobles? > > That law raises so many questions. > > > > Can anybody shine light on this odd little corner, please? > > > > Regards > > > > Trevor Agnew, Christchurch, New Zealand [or Brisbane, Queensland >perhaps] > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sct-wigtownshire-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:sct-wigtownshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DIANA >HENRY > > Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2007 5:12 a.m. > > To: sct-wigtownshire@roots > > Subject: [WIG LIST] WFP 23 FEBRUARY 1888 > > > > LINDA has pointed out that of course Brisbane ,Queensland is not in >New > > Zealand. It was in the original copy. Sorry I did not notice this, I >am > > more concerned with getting the names correct! these copies are very > > black. > > Diana > > > > ------------------------------- > > == Scottish History == > > A Scottish law of 1433 prohibited provision of pies to anyone under >the >rank > > of baron. > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > == Scottish History == > > A Scottish law of 1433 prohibited provision of pies to anyone under >the >rank of baron. > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >------------------------------- >== Scottish History == >A Scottish law of 1433 prohibited provision of pies to anyone under the >rank of baron. >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >SCT-WIGTOWNSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Play your part in making history - Email Britain! http://www.emailbritain.co.uk/

V.G. to you and Google, Malcolm! I looked up the cheap-o The Consice Scots Dictionary I have for a definition of cleithing, but the closest I can find is clied -- to clothe: cf. cleed, which is variously cled (clad, clothed) cleed. Maisie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Malcolm Lockerbie" <malcolmlockerbie@hotmail.com> To: <campsiehills@sbcglobal.net>; <agnewtj@xtra.co.nz>; <dianahhenry@btinternet.com>; <sct-wigtownshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [WIG LIST] Why Pies? Why providing? > Hi Listers, > > This was known as a'Sumptuary Law', or belonging to cost or expense and > often addressed what was then seen as excess or waste, in this case food. > In 1457 (temp. James II.) an act > was passed against " sumptuous cleithing." A Scottish sumptuary law of 1621 was the last of the kind in Great Britain.... > > The wonders of Google!! Cannot find what 'cleithing' is however, any > academics out there?? --- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> forbidden to all under the rank of baron. In 1457 (temp. James II.) an act > was passed against " sumptuous cleithing." A Scottish sumptuary law of 1621 > was the last of the kind in Great Britain.... > > The wonders of Google!! Cannot find what 'cleithing' is however, any > academics out there?? No claim to be an academic, but my two cents would say that it's a variant of "claithing" which Warrack's Scots dictionary says is clothing. Crawford.