Great, guess who will be sitting reading the one in Golspie? Christine -----Original Message----- From: SheilaMMackay@aol.com [mailto:SheilaMMackay@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 3:05 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Sutherland Estate Papers Hi Christine, There's bound to be copy in the National Library and there's definitely a copy in Inverness Library. I should think there will be one in Golspie. Sheila ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01

A very big thankyou Malcolm. Only when time allows. Christine -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 3:07 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Have copy of Golspie list and will transcribe for general consumption Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Christine Stokes [mailto:chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 04 April 2001 14:49 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm I wonder where we could see the Golspie list? I have a copy of your Farr list and have found it absolutely fascinating. Spent ages trying to make out if any of those patrynomics meant Mackenzie!! Any idea? Christine -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:59 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Pre 1841 Census returns Before I mislead you completely, let me emphasise that only a very small number of the original manuscript Scottish returns for 1801 to 1831 have survived. I have published small booklets including the 1811 returns for the parishes of Assynt and Farr. There is a return for Golspie but that is it as far as Sutherland is concerned. I know of no returns for Ross and Cromarty, for instance. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ian Morrison [mailto:ianmorrison@msn.com] Sent: 03 April 2001 17:20 To: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk; Sutherland-List Subject: Re: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm, Very interesting! I was previously under the impression that censuses prior to 1841 did not record names. How does one gain access to censuses prior to 1841? Ian Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:16 AM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a few miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland estate. There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald households: George and William. No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John Macdonald. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hi list I am new to the list but would like some direction if possible Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret children so far listed are Mary born 1806 Grace born 1810 William born 1816 Jane born July 12 1817 There could be and probably is more children but I have not yet found them. does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all Cathy ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB _____ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com <http://www.hotmail.com> . ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate your heritage! http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01

1891 Census - ROGART Donald GUNN marr. age 60 - ag.lab. born CLYNE Alexander MACPHERSON Unm. age 42 - ret.shep. b.KILDONAN Henrietta - sister Unm. age 62 - b KILDONAN Alexander RAE - Mar. age 45 - shepherd - b. TONGUE Thomas ANDERSON - Unm. age 27 - Boarder/Shepherd b. FARR 1851 Census - ROGART William ROSS - Unm. Teacher of English age 17 b. LAIRG Children of Walter ORMISTON - shepherd Esthrina age 17 born FARR Elizabeth age 9 born DURNESS Robert, son, age 25 - born FARR Isabella Ormiston - servant - age 26 born ASSYNT William ORR age 49 shepherd - born DURNESS Merrion ORR age 56 wife born LAIRG Mary ORR age 21 dau born LAIRG Catherine age 19 dau born CREICH George age 16 son born CREICH William age 13 son born FARR

Hi Christine, Thanks for explaining that "SCR" is short for "Scottish Church Records". It's always a bonus to know which source is being quoted when a kind soul such as yourself posts family details to the list. We rely so heavily on the kindness of strangers. It would be great if everyone who shares information would tell us where they found the details they're quoting - and we did the same in return. That way, everyone would learn more about which sources are actually available. For instance, when baptismal or marriage information is posted to the list, a source note such as "OPR" or "old parish/parochial records" and the LDS film number, if applicable, could be added. I'm willing to get into the habit, when/if I am fortunate enough to have news of this kind to contribute <grin>. Most members of this list already indicate information that was taken from readily accessible sources such as the IGI, Scots Origins, the Family History Library Catalogue at www.familysearch.org and so on - for which I thank them! The Internet is a blessing, but sooner or later most of us must resort to doing our own research (those endless "hours in research rooms" that you mentioned <grin>). Sometimes we share information of unknown origins -- usually because we forgot to record the source when we were making our notes. To increase its value to fellow researchers, we could attach the words: "Source unknown". "Family Story" and "Personal Correspondence" would cover personal sources, which are inaccessible to fellow researchers (generally speaking). "Speculation" or a similar warning should be used for queries in which rough dates are given. Mind you, it's only a problem if someone else chooses to take the dates at face value, enter those dates into a database, then distribute them as fact. (Imagine the brick walls in store for the unwary!) Well, enough of my 'bright ideas' -- and a very long post. With best wishes to all, Frances ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Original message (FROM SCT-SUTHERLAND-D Digest: Volume 01 : Issue 74) >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:45:21 +0100 >From: "Christine Stokes" <chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk> >To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: RE: SUT - RE: Sutherland, MacKay, Matheson - "SCR" > >SCR = Scottish Church Records >These were what the LDS issued in the days before the IGI became >international. These were in the days when we had to sit for hours and >hours in research rooms hunting! Great days. >Christine > >-----Original Message----- >From: Frances Bishop [mailto:bishad@direct.ca] >Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:37 PM >To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: SUT - RE: Sutherland, MacKay, Matheson - "SCR" > >Hello, Christine > >It's always good to see source details on genealogical mailing lists, but >sometimes I need help in deciphering abbreviations. > >In this case I recognize "OPR" as old parish/parochial records, but what is >"SCR"? > >Many thanks, >Frances >

Hello Margaret Have you tried the GENUKI Gazetteer? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/#Gazetteers Buccleuch appears to be in Selkirkshire, Scotland. There is a place called "Ridsdale" in Northumberland, England - which, of course, is near the Scottish border. Best wishes, Frances ------- original message >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:00:25 EDT >From: RFinnigan@aol.com >To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: BUCCLEUCH ESTATES ?? > > In researching my family RIDSDALE I found the name mentioned in "The Great >Historic Families of Scotland on page 188,The Scotts of BUCCLEUCH, page 212. >The time period is 1643 quote" The same Symon Armstrong, and his partners, >did steal out of Rukin in RIDSDALE, fourscore of sheep. > >Would someone know what "out of Rukin in Ridsdale" meant.? Also where would >these places/? be located in Scotland? > >Margaret Ridsdale > >______________________________ >------------------------------

***************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. ***************************************************************************** The two volumes are available on the open shelves in the National Library of Scotland, National Archives of Scotland, also the Inverness Reference Library, and probably Dornoch. They turn up quite frequently in second hand shops. Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Christine Stokes [mailto:chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 04 April 2001 14:47 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Sutherland Estate Papers ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hello I know we touched on this subject before but did anyone manage to find a copy in the UK? Sutherland Estate Papers by R J Adam? Would be interested to know if there is a copy in the National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh or is there a copy in Sutherland? Many thanks Christine --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

***************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. ***************************************************************************** Have copy of Golspie list and will transcribe for general consumption Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Christine Stokes [mailto:chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 04 April 2001 14:49 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm I wonder where we could see the Golspie list? I have a copy of your Farr list and have found it absolutely fascinating. Spent ages trying to make out if any of those patrynomics meant Mackenzie!! Any idea? Christine -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:59 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Pre 1841 Census returns Before I mislead you completely, let me emphasise that only a very small number of the original manuscript Scottish returns for 1801 to 1831 have survived. I have published small booklets including the 1811 returns for the parishes of Assynt and Farr. There is a return for Golspie but that is it as far as Sutherland is concerned. I know of no returns for Ross and Cromarty, for instance. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ian Morrison [mailto:ianmorrison@msn.com] Sent: 03 April 2001 17:20 To: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk; Sutherland-List Subject: Re: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm, Very interesting! I was previously under the impression that censuses prior to 1841 did not record names. How does one gain access to censuses prior to 1841? Ian Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:16 AM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a few miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland estate. There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald households: George and William. No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John Macdonald. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hi list I am new to the list but would like some direction if possible Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret children so far listed are Mary born 1806 Grace born 1810 William born 1816 Jane born July 12 1817 There could be and probably is more children but I have not yet found them. does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all Cathy ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB _____ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com <http://www.hotmail.com> . ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate your heritage! http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com

Sorry it's taken so long to reply on this one, but I have only just discovered this source myself. I was looking for The Northern Ensign newspapers and have discovered two places , which may be of interest. The first is the Northern Highland Archives in Wick, the web -site is http://www.caithness.org/community/museums/nha/index.html the contact there is:- Brenda.Lees@highland.gov.uk, She was very helpful, they have the John O Groats Journal there also. You could also try the National Library of Scotland who also hold various newspapers at http://www.nls.uk/ The enquiry service will tell you if they have what you are looking for. Good Luck in your quest Carole McBeath (Glasgow) -----Original Message----- From: John McKay <jomac@ansonic.com.au> To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com <SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Date: 22 March 2001 10:21 Subject: SUT Newspaper articles By accident found in a lecture transcript that my ancestor's brother Wm Paterson Mackay sent a letter from Adelaide Australia back to the "northern papers". When I went to check these for a full version, the letter could not be found, as the dates may have been incorrectly transcribed. Has anyone seen this and can they advise? Per below: - Prof Richards: WP Mackay sent a letter to papers in the north of Scot., (John O'Groats Journal, Inverness Courier), espousing the virtues of the new colony. (ref Prof Eric Richards article Highland Emigrants to SA in the 1850's which cites this letter of W.P.'s pg 8 & 9). Prof Richards states ... "Most of the attractions of the antipodes to a prospective Highland migrant, even before the gold fever, were encompassed in a letter written from Adelaide in 1847 by W.P. Mackay who had left Sutherland two years before. His letter was widely publicised in the northern newspapers. He wrote: The time has now arrived when emigrants from Caithness, Sutherland, Ross, Orkney and Zetland, may get a free passage from their own country if they choose ... [to] this country, which is replete with plenty. Here is no starvation, no seizing your goods for taxes, no begging for work, but plenty of good meat at 2d. per lb., bread 6d per loaf. The poorest Zetland fisherman, were he here, could actually live more sumptuously than the best gentry in these islands; for here, on 30s. per week (labourer's wages) a man may have meat every meal, bread cheaper and better than in all Scotland. He spoke glowingly, and for his readers incredibly, of peaches, figs, grapes, melons and wine in profusion. He spelt out the dream further: To the mechanics and farmers of Caithness I would say, take your ploughs, harrows, and farming implements, and tools and come here as quickly as possible. You, in a few years, will be independent. You may buy a section of 80 acres for £80, fence it in, build a house, plough, sow and reap. In a few years, yes, in one year, you may pay your family's expenses with the growth of wheat and potatoes. "You can worship as you think proper here. Religious sects of all kinds and persuasions are on an equal footing. Government will give them aid, if they petition, either for building churches or schools, and also aid teachers. Here are no taxes, the taxes being raised on goods imported." To the Highland Scot in the midst of famine, it must have sounded like paradisiacal music. But in reality it was a description rose-tinted by the current conditions of boom in South Australia, by a man who had landed on his feet and had some capital to give him a start. &c." Prof Richards. (Richards dates this letter as 1849 but says it appeared in 1848? Anyone come across this or know how I might find the full "letter". John McKay in Australia ______________________________

Malcolm I wonder where we could see the Golspie list? I have a copy of your Farr list and have found it absolutely fascinating. Spent ages trying to make out if any of those patrynomics meant Mackenzie!! Any idea? Christine -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:59 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Pre 1841 Census returns Before I mislead you completely, let me emphasise that only a very small number of the original manuscript Scottish returns for 1801 to 1831 have survived. I have published small booklets including the 1811 returns for the parishes of Assynt and Farr. There is a return for Golspie but that is it as far as Sutherland is concerned. I know of no returns for Ross and Cromarty, for instance. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ian Morrison [mailto:ianmorrison@msn.com] Sent: 03 April 2001 17:20 To: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk; Sutherland-List Subject: Re: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm, Very interesting! I was previously under the impression that censuses prior to 1841 did not record names. How does one gain access to censuses prior to 1841? Ian Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:16 AM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a few miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland estate. There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald households: George and William. No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John Macdonald. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hi list I am new to the list but would like some direction if possible Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret children so far listed are Mary born 1806 Grace born 1810 William born 1816 Jane born July 12 1817 There could be and probably is more children but I have not yet found them. does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all Cathy ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB _____ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com <http://www.hotmail.com> . ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate your heritage! http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01

Hello I know we touched on this subject before but did anyone manage to find a copy in the UK? Sutherland Estate Papers by R J Adam? Would be interested to know if there is a copy in the National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh or is there a copy in Sutherland? Many thanks Christine --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01

For the Sutherland Estate Papers they are in two volumes; the ISBN number for the SET is as follows: #9500260 3 4. They cover the period 1802-1816 of the Sutherland Estate. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk [mailto:Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:09 AM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: Sutherland Estate Papers **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * The two volumes are available on the open shelves in the National Library of Scotland, National Archives of Scotland, also the Inverness Reference Library, and probably Dornoch. They turn up quite frequently in second hand shops. Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Christine Stokes [mailto:chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 04 April 2001 14:47 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Sutherland Estate Papers ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hello I know we touched on this subject before but did anyone manage to find a copy in the UK? Sutherland Estate Papers by R J Adam? Would be interested to know if there is a copy in the National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh or is there a copy in Sutherland? Many thanks Christine --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ______________________________

***************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. ***************************************************************************** Pre 1841 Census returns Before I mislead you completely, let me emphasise that only a very small number of the original manuscript Scottish returns for 1801 to 1831 have survived. I have published small booklets including the 1811 returns for the parishes of Assynt and Farr. There is a return for Golspie but that is it as far as Sutherland is concerned. I know of no returns for Ross and Cromarty, for instance. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ian Morrison [mailto:ianmorrison@msn.com] Sent: 03 April 2001 17:20 To: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk; Sutherland-List Subject: Re: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Malcolm, Very interesting! I was previously under the impression that censuses prior to 1841 did not record names. How does one gain access to censuses prior to 1841? Ian Morrison ----- Original Message ----- From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:16 AM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: MCDONALD **************************************************************************** * This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. **************************************************************************** * Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a few miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland estate. There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald households: George and William. No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John Macdonald. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hi list I am new to the list but would like some direction if possible Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret children so far listed are Mary born 1806 Grace born 1810 William born 1816 Jane born July 12 1817 There could be and probably is more children but I have not yet found them. does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all Cathy ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB _____ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com <http://www.hotmail.com> .

These estate papers that i'm reading on e-mail?. Iam going to write a little story that my mother told her children back about 1938, I was 12 yr's old and said quote; If we could trace our Sutherland ancestors back to Scotland you children would not have to work for the rest of your life. Then when I was 18 yrs old and in the Navy, I asked my mom about what she had said about not working the rest of our lives, she told me to forget about it because it would cost to much money to find out about it and that some of the relatives [That had money] weree going over to Scotland after the war to find what the story was on this matter. Now! I dont know if this story rings any bell's out there. I am 75 yrs old, just interested in my background not moola. We can talk about N.Z. My mothers first cousin Angus Sutherland now gone to the heavens, but was at the time living in N.S. Was writing to a Sutherland in N.Z. to try and trace some of the family in that area. His folks did'nt like the idea of him doing this because it would cost a lot of money [He had a few schecels,] But all I found was an enevelope, no address, no nothing. So their could be relatives in N.Z. Beg my pardon please for sending this, but some times little things become big things. Frank In Nova Scotia

Hi Malcolm, Why it just so happens that Golspie is the exact spot where 7 of the Stephen Clark kids were born between 1820 and 1831! It just couldn't be possible that the 1821 Golspie census could list Steve! Could it? Given my luck Steve probably lived 100 feet outside the town limits. These little bits of info are why I continue to check your new Sutherland website, but my batting average will not ever be very high. Thanks, Bob Eckerman. On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:58:54 +0100 Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk writes: > ************************************************************************* **** > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely > for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are > addressed. > ************************************************************************* **** > > Pre 1841 Census returns > Before I mislead you completely, let me emphasise that only a very > small > number of the original manuscript Scottish returns for 1801 to 1831 > have > survived. I have published small booklets including the 1811 > returns for > the parishes of Assynt and Farr. There is a return for Golspie but > that is > it as far as Sutherland is concerned. I know of no returns for Ross > and > Cromarty, for instance. > Malcolm Bangor-Jones > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Morrison [mailto:ianmorrison@msn.com] > Sent: 03 April 2001 17:20 > To: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk; Sutherland-List > Subject: Re: MCDONALD > > > ******************************************************************* > This email has been received from an external party and > has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. > ******************************************************************* > > > > Malcolm, > Very interesting! I was previously under the impression > that > censuses prior to 1841 did not record names. How does one gain > access to > censuses prior to 1841? > Ian Morrison > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 4:16 AM > To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: MCDONALD > > ************************************************************************* *** > * > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely > for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. > ***************************************************** > * > > Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a > few > miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland > estate. > > There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald > households: > George and William. > > No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John > Macdonald. > > Malcolm Bangor-Jones > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] > Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 > To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: MCDONALD > > > ******************************************************************* > This email has been received from an external party and > has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. > > ******************************************************************* > > Hi list > > I am new to the list but would like some direction if > possible > > Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place > called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... > > I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what > I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret > children so far listed are > Mary born 1806 > Grace born 1810 > William born 1816 > Jane born July 12 1817 > > There could be and probably is more children but I have not > yet found them. > does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here > I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all > > Cathy > > > ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== > You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to > this list. You can do this at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access > to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > > > ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== > You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. > You > can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the > #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > > > > > > > _____ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com > <http://www.hotmail.com> . > > > > > > ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== > You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. > You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ > > ============================== > Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & > Celebrate > your heritage! > http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog > >

Hi All These Estate papers you speak of.....is this like a "will" of someone deceased?? Are wills or estate papers common for anyone or just people considered to be important?? Cathy

Hi Christine, There's bound to be copy in the National Library and there's definitely a copy in Inverness Library. I should think there will be one in Golspie. Sheila

SCR = Scottish Church Records These were what the LDS issued in the days before the IGI became international. These were in the days when we had to sit for hours and hours in research rooms hunting! Great days. Christine -----Original Message----- From: Frances Bishop [mailto:bishad@direct.ca] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:37 PM To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: SUT - RE: Sutherland, MacKay, Matheson - "SCR" Hello, Christine It's always good to see source details on genealogical mailing lists, but sometimes I need help in deciphering abbreviations. In this case I recognize "OPR" as old parish/parochial records, but what is "SCR"? Many thanks, Frances ------------SCT-SUTHERLAND-D Digest V01 #73------------------ X-Message: #1 Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:00:30 +0100 From: "Christine Stokes" <chris@northants26.freeserve.co.uk> To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: Sutherland, MacKay, Matheson Hello Franklin Is this your family? CHRISTIAN MACKAY married ALEXANDER MATHESON Christian and Alexander had the following children (MATHESON) born in Dornoch parish: John, born 19 December 1784; Thomas, born 10 March 1787; John, born 10 January 1791; James, born 1 September 1793; Catherine, born 24 November 1796 Proncie [married Alexander Sutherland]; Alexander, born 5 May 1799. MARGARET MACKAY married ALEXANDER SUTHERLAND Margaret of Torboll, Dornoch, and Alexander of Skelbo, married in Dornoch on 14 November 1784 (OPR). They had a son: Alexander SUTHERLAND, born 8 March 1789 Dornoch (SCR). Catherine Matheson of Proncie daughter of Christian Mackay and Alexander Matheson, married Alexander Sutherland, son of Alexander Sutherland and Margaret Mackay. Alexander Sutherland and Catherine Matheson had Margaret, born 1864; Marion, born 1867; John, born 1874 and Elizabeth, born 1876 - all born at Birichen. There is another researcher working on this family. By private email I will send you her address. Christine ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 3/7/01

Malcolm, do tell about the 1811 Census, I always thought the first one was in 1841? Mary Young ----- Original Message ----- From: <Malcolm.Bangor-Jones@scotland.gsi.gov.uk> To: <SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 3 April 2001 08:55 Subject: RE: MCDONALD ***************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. ***************************************************************************** Kirtomy is in the parish of Farr on the north coast of Sutherland a few miles east of Bettyhill. It was a township on the Sutherland estate. There were 20 households in 1811 (Census return). Two Macdonald households: George and William. No less than 25 families living there in 1819, including a John Macdonald. Malcolm Bangor-Jones -----Original Message----- From: Ron and Cathy Wagner [mailto:rwagner@xcelco.on.ca] Sent: 03 April 2001 04:56 To: SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: MCDONALD ******************************************************************* This email has been received from an external party and has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ******************************************************************* Hi list I am new to the list but would like some direction if possible Does anyone know how I would get transcriptions of a place called Kirtomay/Kirktome, Farr, Sutherlandshire...... I am looking for my MCDONALD family from there, so far what I have is John MCDONALD b unknown wife Margaret children so far listed are Mary born 1806 Grace born 1810 William born 1816 Jane born July 12 1817 There could be and probably is more children but I have not yet found them. does anyone have any suggestions as to where I go from here I cannot find this place called Kirtomay/Kirtome at all Cathy ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ ============================== Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 Source for Family History Online. Go to: http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB

Dear Lizzi, I see you have a ".com.au", address. If you happen to be in reach of Melbourne, Genealogical Society of Victoria at 179 Queen St. have 1841, 1851 and 1881 census' on microfiche or CD Rom. They don't have 1861. Regards, Geoff Anderson ----- Original Message ----- From: lizzi bell <lizzibell@bigpond.com.au> To: <SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2001 04:32 Subject: SUT-MUNRO of GOLSPIE > Just wondering if any new list members were related to the following MUNRO's around Golspie, particularly Drummuie. > > John MUNRO b.c. 1795 Golspie m Eliza SUTHERLAND c.1815 -no records of both these dates. John is listed as a shoemaker then labourer. > issue; > > 1816-1895- Catherine, died spinster at Drummuie > 1820- - John, shoemaker of Golspie, m. Ann SUTHERLAND dau of Donald. > 1822-1876- Hugh m Christina McLEAN in 1852 at Loth-dau of John & Flora > came to Aus 1853. > 1823- -James - no info-not in 1881 census-where did he go? > 1828-1864- Joseph-to Aus 1852 m. Maria ELLIS > 1829- -Jean- no info-did she die? > 1833- -Jane m. Gilbert MITCHELL 1859 Golspie > > I am unable to find John MUNRO's parentage, so I have come to a dead end. > > Eliza (Elspat) SUTHERLAND was born c. 1797 and died at Drummuie in 1876. She was the dau of James SUTHERLAND and Jane nee SUTHERLAND who were married at Golspie in 1796. > > Does anyone have a copy of the 1841,1851,1861 census for Golspie? > > Christine found the MUNRO family were in Drummuie as far back as 1760's but I cannot link my John to them. > ANY help would be most appreciated. > > Lizzi > > ______________________________

Margaret, I am only hazarding a guess but it could possibly be a corruption of the word Redesdale. This dale runs from Reidswire on the scottish border along the river Rede south through Otterburn to Bellingham in England. Hope this helps ----- Original Message ----- From: <RFinnigan@aol.com> To: <SCT-SUTHERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:00 PM Subject: BUCCLEUCH ESTATES ?? > In researching my family RIDSDALE I found the name mentioned in "The Great > Historic Families of Scotland on page 188,The Scotts of BUCCLEUCH, page 212. > The time period is 1643 quote" The same Symon Armstrong, and his partners, > did steal out of Rukin in RIDSDALE, fourscore of sheep. > > Would someone know what "out of Rukin in Ridsdale" meant.? Also where would > these places/? be located in Scotland? > > Margaret Ridsdale > > > ==== SCT-SUTHERLAND Mailing List ==== > You may, at times, wish to check out previous messages to this list. You can do this at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/SCT-SUTHERLAND-L/ > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > >