Hi Elizabeth, Re your comment 'I could not find one McNaughton, of any spelling, on Mull or Iona'. Did did a quick census check and found the following. There are even more entries under the Surname index. Regards, Ian 1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902180>McNaughtanNeil42 (1737) Workman1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanArchibald3(1776) His son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanDonald30(1749) Cottar1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanHugh1(1778) His son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanJohn5(1774) His son1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> McNaughtonCathrine13(1828) Female ServantY1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> McNaughtonWidow50(1791) Female ServantY1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> MacNaughtenCatherine23(1828) Ud Tobermory1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> MacNaughtenCatherine65(1786) w sewerArdnarnurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187121650> McNaughtonDuncan25(1846) Visitor Assistant Minister *****Ardnamurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> McNaughtonIsabella21(1850) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760>McNaughtonJames 23(1848) Head Farmer**** of Argyll Cowal1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> McNaughtonMargaret28(1843) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230>McNaughton Alexander2(1869) Son ScholarTobermory Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonBell4(1867) Dau ScholarTobermory Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonMary10(1861) Dau ScholarArgyleshire Torosay1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonSarah33(1838) Wife Isla Bowmore1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188112070><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=189121790> McNaughtonJemima48(1833) Head HousekeeperKilfinichen, Argyll, Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> McNaughtJames12(1869) Boarder Herd BoyIrvine, Ayr, Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> McNaughtWilliam38(1843) Boarder (Head) Joiner JourneymanStevenson, Ayr, Scotland1881 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188151040>NaughtonColl D.9(1872) Grandson ScholarGlasgow, Lanark, Scotland1891<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=189121790><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=188112070> McNaughtonJemima58(1833) Sister DressmakerKilfinichen, Argyllshire On 12 December 2011 19:57, elizabeth mcdonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Ted, Louise and Ida, > Further to my e-mail below of Saturday I have some more info. > > The Mary and Marion below were born in the village of > Torranachtrach and Murdoch and Ann in Killunaig. (I am doing this from > memory and may have them reversed). Whether the parents of all four are > the same couple, or of the two couples, needs a look at the microfilm to > determine (and may not even then straighten it our). My info above is from > Jo Currie's handwritten notes in the Mull Museum archives in which she has > pulled out all births and marriages either from the microfilm, or, (living > in Edinburgh herself,) from the primary source, the original book, in the > New Register House in Edinburgh. > > In collating Jo's work in 2009, I recorded some 8 McDougall > couples in Torranachtrach and some 6 in Killunaig - thus leading to > suppositions that all these folk (both genders) in each farm and born in > the 1780's and 1790's, could be siblings. Killunaig is on the coast just > sw of Pennyghael and Torrans is the next farm sw with Torranachtrach the > village back of it in the hills above the coast. > > On first look I could not find the two marriages which > suggests only that the two couples were not married in Torranachtrach or > Killunaig or Pennyghael, the three villages' records I photocopied from > Jo's notes. > > My Neil and Marion/Sarah's marriage is there, he as from > Torranachtrach and she from Killunaig. So are 'my' kids' christenings. > > Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new > to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would > think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'? > > Could it be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of > Torranachtrach on Mull is yours and that later in life he moved to > Islay/Kildalton to work and listed the latter as his abode on emigration? > > For example, this happened to one of my great-grandfathers. > He was born and raised in Saddell and Skipness on Kintyre on the Skipness > Estate. When his parents died, within two weeks of each other (cause to > date unknown - cholera? Irish potato famine?) he was only 11 and the > second youngest of 11. His elder brother became head of the family and > took the four kids still at home to Islay when he took up a job there > teaching school. They all are on the Kildalton 1851 census and the whole > family with parents in the 1841 Skipness census. At least 6 of the 11 > emigrated at different times to Ontario, but from where I don't yet know, > as I have yet to find ships' lists. > > So it could be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Islay > is also the Murdoch McDougall of Mull. > > Would you like to have me look up the microfilm to check on > these two John McDougall marriages and the four baptisms to check out the > estates/villages/farms, Ted? Our local Mormon Church's Family History > Centre is very handy and the microfilm might still be there. > > Thank you, Louise, for the offer to help me with Flora > McNaughton. That would be fantastic! I could not find one McNaughton, of > any spelling, on Mull or Iona. Her husband's record on the obelisk > tombstone in Maple says he is from Iona (Icolcom) but hers on the stone > does not. I think I found one McNaughton on Tiree at one time but did not > follow it up. > > So far I have her the daughter, Euphan, of John McNaughton > and Isabella Caddell, of Dowally, Perthshire!!! A long way from Iona!! > And absolutely no cross-references to date. Only that Flora names two > different daughters by the same name of Isabella, and has a son John. And > the age fits. Also that her husband Archibald McDonald is on the > 'conscription' list for Iona in the late 1790's at the beginning of the > Napoleonic Wars. If he were in the army he could have been garrisoned at > Stirling Castle or somewhere in Perthshire and that could have been how > they met. All speculation to date. I have not yet ventured into the realm > of military history by way of Kew: it's on my mental list. So any help > with Flora would be very much appeciated. > > Drop a line Ted, if you wish me me to pursue the Murdoch > McDougall of The Ross of Mull. > > All the best. > > > Elizabeth McDonald. > > > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:19:59 +0000 > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] McDougall/McKillop marriage > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ted, > > I have my McDougall binders with me to-day and have been doing some > computer research. > > > > Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, > is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch > baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? > > > > John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John > McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. > > > > There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who > knows. (A trip to the microfilm should give the farm/village, and thus > possibly answer that question). > > > > They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c > 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. > This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage. > > > > Since the KandK OPR starts only in 1804, knowing the relationship of the > fathers born in the 1790's is a guessing game. But it is possible that my > Neil born circa 1790 and your John, married 1815, are brothers. > > > > My records show Johns this side as: John McDugal/McLucais and Jane > Thoburn of Pennyghael and Mariposa who have three kids in the OPR the first > two baptized as McLucais and that last, a John, baptized as McDougal. No > Murdoch. > > > > John and Jane are late arrivals. My Neil and Sarah arrive with children > 1832-3. He is listed in the tax assessments for Mariposa in the early > 1830's. Unfortunately Mariposa is not in the 1837 Home District Directory > though Brock to the west is. > > > > It is possible that your Murdoch who says on marriage he is 32 (born > 1834) but in the 1871 census and death is listed as > > 42 and 46 respectively (1829, 1828), lied about his age to his > 20-year-old bride so he would not appear to be at his real age - 37. > > I've seen this before. > > > > My Neil's first son is a John suggesting that, as per Scottish naming > custom, his father is a John. > > > > In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period > with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings > and parents > > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John > born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was > surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled > 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in > the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). (Even > as late as the 1870's the top of the Bruce Peninsula was still Indian > Country. Tobermory at the top is named after the main town on Mull.) > > > > We will need a lot more cross-references to prove the above as fact. > Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the > original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm > names. > > > > If Neil is your Murdoch's uncle then Murdoch is a first cousin to my > ggrandmother Christina born to Neil and Sarah on this side in 1833, and we > are fourth cousins. > > > > My Neil and Sarah's first four children are in the OPR - born in > Scotland - Mary 2.1.1816, John 13.4.1817, Murdoch 7.7.1827 and Marion > 8.1.1830 all in Killunaig. Others are Donald, and Allan born in Scotland > and Isabella and Christina born on this side. I know the lines down of > Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not > familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion. > > > > All the best. > > Elizabeth > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Ian, Many many thanks. I obviously was mistaken. Though I have the total 1779 census I must never have bothered to look up McNaughton, it being a name which appears in my tree only in the 32-surname generation, of which I do less. I must have limited my searches to IGI/familysearch. Another excuse is, probably, that there is a Rev. Peter McNaughton who miinisters in Vaughan to the Scots community in Gallic in the 1830's and 1840's and he is from Perthshire. Well documented and I always suspected related. Also Flora is a very early pioneer, in 1820, and so I hadn't bothered to make any correlations based on later British censi. I'll try some connecting using your data and my 1779 census and see if there is progress. Thank you so very much. Elizabeth. > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:09:19 +0000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] FW: McDougall/McKillop marriage > > Hi Elizabeth, > > Re your comment 'I could not find one McNaughton, of any spelling, on Mull > or Iona'. > > Did did a quick census check and found the following. There are even more > entries under the Surname index. > > Regards, > > Ian > > 1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902180>McNaughtanNeil42 > (1737) Workman1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanArchibald3(1776) His > son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanDonald30(1749) > Cottar1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanHugh1(1778) His > son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanJohn5(1774) His > son1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> > McNaughtonCathrine13(1828) Female > ServantY1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> > McNaughtonWidow50(1791) Female > ServantY1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> > MacNaughtenCatherine23(1828) Ud > Tobermory1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> > MacNaughtenCatherine65(1786) w > sewerArdnarnurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187121650> > McNaughtonDuncan25(1846) Visitor Assistant Minister > *****Ardnamurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> > McNaughtonIsabella21(1850) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal > 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760>McNaughtonJames > 23(1848) Head Farmer**** of Argyll > Cowal1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> > McNaughtonMargaret28(1843) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal > 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230>McNaughton > Alexander2(1869) Son ScholarTobermory > Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonBell4(1867) Dau ScholarTobermory > Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonMary10(1861) Dau ScholarArgyleshire > Torosay1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonSarah33(1838) Wife Isla > Bowmore1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188112070><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=189121790> > McNaughtonJemima48(1833) Head HousekeeperKilfinichen, Argyll, > Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> > McNaughtJames12(1869) Boarder Herd BoyIrvine, Ayr, > Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> > McNaughtWilliam38(1843) Boarder (Head) Joiner JourneymanStevenson, Ayr, > Scotland1881 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188151040>NaughtonColl > D.9(1872) Grandson ScholarGlasgow, Lanark, > Scotland1891<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=189121790><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=188112070> > McNaughtonJemima58(1833) Sister DressmakerKilfinichen, Argyllshire > On 12 December 2011 19:57, elizabeth mcdonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Ted, Louise and Ida, > > Further to my e-mail below of Saturday I have some more info. > > > > The Mary and Marion below were born in the village of > > Torranachtrach and Murdoch and Ann in Killunaig. (I am doing this from > > memory and may have them reversed). Whether the parents of all four are > > the same couple, or of the two couples, needs a look at the microfilm to > > determine (and may not even then straighten it our). My info above is from > > Jo Currie's handwritten notes in the Mull Museum archives in which she has > > pulled out all births and marriages either from the microfilm, or, (living > > in Edinburgh herself,) from the primary source, the original book, in the > > New Register House in Edinburgh. > > > > In collating Jo's work in 2009, I recorded some 8 McDougall > > couples in Torranachtrach and some 6 in Killunaig - thus leading to > > suppositions that all these folk (both genders) in each farm and born in > > the 1780's and 1790's, could be siblings. Killunaig is on the coast just > > sw of Pennyghael and Torrans is the next farm sw with Torranachtrach the > > village back of it in the hills above the coast. > > > > On first look I could not find the two marriages which > > suggests only that the two couples were not married in Torranachtrach or > > Killunaig or Pennyghael, the three villages' records I photocopied from > > Jo's notes. > > > > My Neil and Marion/Sarah's marriage is there, he as from > > Torranachtrach and she from Killunaig. So are 'my' kids' christenings. > > > > Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new > > to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would > > think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'? > > > > Could it be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of > > Torranachtrach on Mull is yours and that later in life he moved to > > Islay/Kildalton to work and listed the latter as his abode on emigration? > > > > For example, this happened to one of my great-grandfathers. > > He was born and raised in Saddell and Skipness on Kintyre on the Skipness > > Estate. When his parents died, within two weeks of each other (cause to > > date unknown - cholera? Irish potato famine?) he was only 11 and the > > second youngest of 11. His elder brother became head of the family and > > took the four kids still at home to Islay when he took up a job there > > teaching school. They all are on the Kildalton 1851 census and the whole > > family with parents in the 1841 Skipness census. At least 6 of the 11 > > emigrated at different times to Ontario, but from where I don't yet know, > > as I have yet to find ships' lists. > > > > So it could be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Islay > > is also the Murdoch McDougall of Mull. > > > > Would you like to have me look up the microfilm to check on > > these two John McDougall marriages and the four baptisms to check out the > > estates/villages/farms, Ted? Our local Mormon Church's Family History > > Centre is very handy and the microfilm might still be there. > > > > Thank you, Louise, for the offer to help me with Flora > > McNaughton. That would be fantastic! I could not find one McNaughton, of > > any spelling, on Mull or Iona. Her husband's record on the obelisk > > tombstone in Maple says he is from Iona (Icolcom) but hers on the stone > > does not. I think I found one McNaughton on Tiree at one time but did not > > follow it up. > > > > So far I have her the daughter, Euphan, of John McNaughton > > and Isabella Caddell, of Dowally, Perthshire!!! A long way from Iona!! > > And absolutely no cross-references to date. Only that Flora names two > > different daughters by the same name of Isabella, and has a son John. And > > the age fits. Also that her husband Archibald McDonald is on the > > 'conscription' list for Iona in the late 1790's at the beginning of the > > Napoleonic Wars. If he were in the army he could have been garrisoned at > > Stirling Castle or somewhere in Perthshire and that could have been how > > they met. All speculation to date. I have not yet ventured into the realm > > of military history by way of Kew: it's on my mental list. So any help > > with Flora would be very much appeciated. > > > > Drop a line Ted, if you wish me me to pursue the Murdoch > > McDougall of The Ross of Mull. > > > > All the best. > > > > > > Elizabeth McDonald. > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:19:59 +0000 > > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] McDougall/McKillop marriage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ted, > > > I have my McDougall binders with me to-day and have been doing some > > computer research. > > > > > > Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, > > is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch > > baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? > > > > > > John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John > > McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. > > > > > > There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who > > knows. (A trip to the microfilm should give the farm/village, and thus > > possibly answer that question). > > > > > > They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c > > 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. > > This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage. > > > > > > Since the KandK OPR starts only in 1804, knowing the relationship of the > > fathers born in the 1790's is a guessing game. But it is possible that my > > Neil born circa 1790 and your John, married 1815, are brothers. > > > > > > My records show Johns this side as: John McDugal/McLucais and Jane > > Thoburn of Pennyghael and Mariposa who have three kids in the OPR the first > > two baptized as McLucais and that last, a John, baptized as McDougal. No > > Murdoch. > > > > > > John and Jane are late arrivals. My Neil and Sarah arrive with children > > 1832-3. He is listed in the tax assessments for Mariposa in the early > > 1830's. Unfortunately Mariposa is not in the 1837 Home District Directory > > though Brock to the west is. > > > > > > It is possible that your Murdoch who says on marriage he is 32 (born > > 1834) but in the 1871 census and death is listed as > > > 42 and 46 respectively (1829, 1828), lied about his age to his > > 20-year-old bride so he would not appear to be at his real age - 37. > > > I've seen this before. > > > > > > My Neil's first son is a John suggesting that, as per Scottish naming > > custom, his father is a John. > > > > > > In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > > > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period > > with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > > > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings > > and parents > > > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John > > born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > > > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was > > surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled > > 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in > > the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). (Even > > as late as the 1870's the top of the Bruce Peninsula was still Indian > > Country. Tobermory at the top is named after the main town on Mull.) > > > > > > We will need a lot more cross-references to prove the above as fact. > > Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the > > original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm > > names. > > > > > > If Neil is your Murdoch's uncle then Murdoch is a first cousin to my > > ggrandmother Christina born to Neil and Sarah on this side in 1833, and we > > are fourth cousins. > > > > > > My Neil and Sarah's first four children are in the OPR - born in > > Scotland - Mary 2.1.1816, John 13.4.1817, Murdoch 7.7.1827 and Marion > > 8.1.1830 all in Killunaig. Others are Donald, and Allan born in Scotland > > and Isabella and Christina born on this side. I know the lines down of > > Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not > > familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion. > > > > > > All the best. > > > Elizabeth > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message