I would like to just add that my Neil McNeil was an Elder at the church in Sonya, Mariposa Township. Neil was the one who gave the cemetery land for the McNeil/Wick Cemetery on the Wick Road in Brock. Also the Ferguson family lived in this area too. They didn't seem to go to the Wick Church but to the Sonya Church which is at the east end of the Wick Road. The Presbyterian Archives have the Sonya Church records in Toronto, Ontario. Jacqueline ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louise MacDougall" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] [SCT-ARL-TIREE] Marriages found in Mariposa Victoria Co., Ont that have Mull and Tiree as birthplaces > Hi Ida, > > This is a good point you have raised in general about Mariposa Township, > Victoria County marriages for Tiree and Mull folk who emigrated to Canada > and settled in Ontario. > > What I would like to add is that the bride and groom may never have > actually lived in Mariposa Township, despite it being the place of > marriage for many of them. > > It took me a long time to figure this out, mainly thanks to Betty > MacKinnon who first pointed it out to me by finding my Mary McDougall's > marriage to my Donald Clark (yes I'm related to both of them, it was a > first cousin marriage). They were married 03 Feb 1852 in the town of > Manilla, Mariposa Township, Victoria County where I would have never > considered looking because they lived in a different jurisdiction: Brock > Township, (old) Ontario County. > > I then found out that, at the time, Manilla had a population of over 700 > and boasted of 5 (FIVE!) churches. Logically then, Manilla was likely > where most of the Tiree folk, who were concentrated around the 7th and 8th > concessions of Brock township, attended church, since the Manilla churches > would have been the closest ones to them even though they were in the a > different county. > > It was a confusing situation because these Tiree folk would be married in > Mariposa Township,Victoria County where they never resided (except for a > few who settled just over the border of the two townships, in Mariposa). > But then they would be buried in the Scotch Cemetery in Brock Township > where they actually lived. The reason of course was that, though the > Tiree folk had had their own cemetery in Brock on the 8th Concession since > the 1830's, to my knowledge there was likely never a church associated > with that cemetery. > > I don't think that the Mull folk in Brock Township were in the same > predicament. I understand that the main Mull settlement in Brock township > was around the Wick/McNeill cemetery which did have a church associated > with it. That is the more usual scenario i.e. a cemetery grows up around > the church which the people attend and so they are married and buried as > part of that same congregation. > > Of course, both Tiree and Mull folk living closer to the the town of > Sunderland, Brock Township would have been married and buried there. > > I would say that a researcher is quite likely to find Tiree folk from > Brock Township being married in the neighbouring township and county of > Mariposa, Victoria. And possibly also a few Mull folk from Brock Township > might have married across the border in Mariposa for a variety of reasons > too. > > If someone else can add more to this description please do, > > Louise MacDougall > Vancouver, BC > ________________ > webmaster: > http://www.tireegathering.com > > . > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle & Ida King <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 9:29 am > Subject: [SCT-ARL-TIREE] Marriages found in Mariposa Victoria Co., Ont > that have Mull and Tiree as birthplaces > To: [email protected] > Cc: [email protected] > >> Hi All >> >> Sorry for the duplication on both list but it so the Archives >> will get a copy of the posting >> >> Matheson Donald, 24 Mariposa, Islay Sct s/o Neil & Martha >> (Morrison) married 1 Oct 1868 Catherine McKinnon, 24, Mariposa, >> Tiree Sct, d/o John & Grace (Campbell) Co Marriage Register >> Victoria Co., Ont. Marriages 1858-1868 vol 25 >> >> From the IGI in Tyree/Tiree John McKinnon & Grace Campbell marry >> Mar 29 1837 Tyree. Have the following children Mary Jun 15-Jul >> 13 1838, Donald Dec 16-22 1839, Catherine Feb 20 1842, Hector >> Nov 7-Dec 14 1845, Archibald Nov 7-Dec 14 1845, another >> Catherine May 12-30 1847, Flora May 12 1847, another Catherine >> May 27-Jun 23 1850. Any additional information is always appreciated >> >> 　 >> >> McQuarrie John, 24 Mariposa, Scotland, s/o Donald & Margaret >> (McFadden) married 26 Jan 1860 Catherine McDougall 20, Mariposa, >> Scotland, d/o Archibald & Margaret Co Marriage Register Victoria >> Co., Ont. Marriages 1858-1868 vol 25 These appear to be Donald >> McQuarrie his wife Margaret McFadden/McFadyen who were in 1841 >> at Tiregoil KLF who emigrated on the Barlow for Montreal Jun >> 1849 I haven’t figured out who the McDougall family is yet. Any >> additional information is always appreciated >> >> 　Ida >> >> 　 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SCT-ARL- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could be. Three of the Campbell brothers settled in Lochaber, P.Q.,(near Thurso) possibly after spending a while in Locheil on the Ontario side. John went to Lanark, Ontario. They crossed in 1822. I didn't have my records with me for the last message. Best wishes, Jean

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Dear Margaret, I don't think so, from memory. Though I don't have my binders with me to-day. He was called and served at St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Vaughan Township in the village of Maple, now part of Greater Toronto. He did leave and return to Scotland for a year or two where he had one more child. They returned, continued to serve, retired, and are buried in Vaughan. He is on line with a biography including even a photograph. Maybe a google should find him for you. eg "Canadian biographies" "Peter McNaughton". As an aside, I joined the Clan McNaughton Society at the McNaughton tent during the 'Homecoming Scotland' in 2009 and get the quarterlies. The editor and treasurer is a Peter McNaughton in the US west whose family hails originally from Ontario. Another thing on my mental list, is to contact him personally, to check out, as I'm sure there's a relationship there. Will check my notes when I get home. Elizabeth. > Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:03:17 -0800 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] rev McNaughton > > sorry, I hit send with my pinkie before I finished my message. I was asking Elizabeth McDonald if she knew if the Rev McNaughton from Perthshire was a baptist. > > Margaret > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Jean, Thanks very much for this. Every little bit helps. Pure speculation - could it be that your bride and groom are siblings or cousins of mine? That is Isabella is a sister of my Neil McDougall and James is a brother of my Sarah/Marion Campbell. The most important lead that makes this a question is that my McDougall oral family history is that the family - Neil McDougall and Sarah Campbell with children lived in Quebec for a short while before moving on to Mariposa. Since your family settled in the Ottawa Valley in 1821, it would be logical that my family, arriving circa 1830-32, would stay first with yours. (Though Neil is a common enough name, as are John and James, Isabella is not in my experience.) Where exactly in the Ottawa Valley did the four sons settle? Many thanks for this Jean. Elizabeth. > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:14:10 +0100 > Subject: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] TR: Macdougals > > > > > > _____ > > De : jeanetjean [mailto:[email protected]] > Envoyé : mercredi 14 décembre 2011 10:31 > À : '[email protected]' > Objet : Macdougals > > > > I have nothing very useful to offer but I am very interested in information > on the MacDougal family as I have a ggg-grandmother who was Isabella > MacDougal on the Ross of Mull. She married James Campbell and had children > in the 1790’s. Four sons, John, Neil, Donald and James settled in the Ottawa > Valley in 1821. Neil was a tenant in Shiaba before he left. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jean > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If I may suggest, you set your mail client to send and receive in plain text and make sure you have not agreed to send a mail using the same format as the sender. That way you limit the possibility of virus laden html content. Helen's address could have spoofed or its a bot sending from her address book. Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Phillips" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] question! > Hi Everyone, > > I rather suspect that the message is a hoax and I would strongly suggest > that the email is NOT opened until Helen is able to confirm this. > > I opened it to find that I was a prize winner. If you continue pass this > point I suspect that a virus (or similar) will be planted on your machine. > > Regards, > > Ian

sorry, I hit send with my pinkie before I finished my message.  I was asking Elizabeth McDonald if she knew if the Rev McNaughton from Perthshire was a baptist.   Margaret

Hi Everyone, I rather suspect that the message is a hoax and I would strongly suggest that the email is NOT opened until Helen is able to confirm this. I opened it to find that I was a prize winner. If you continue pass this point I suspect that a virus (or similar) will be planted on your machine. Regards, Ian On 15 December 2011 12:34, HEATHER BEATON <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Everybody! > I haven't had anything to ask of late but I continue reading the posts and > replies & I may have missed one or two: Helen Danes sent in "See This" - > see what? There isn't anything there and the "link" doesn't go anywhere. > > Sometimes I am technically inept..... just asking! > > Heather Beaton > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Tim and Elizabeth Just to add a bit more confusion here. Here's another child for this couple. See the family in 1841 Torran=iochdrain KLF (:-)) Jane McGilvray, married to Duncan McGilvray, tailor, died aged 63 on the 10th of January 1888 at Torrans, Kilf. & Kilv. Parents John McDougall, crofter, dec. and Mary McDougall M/S Mary McKinnon, dec. Her husband Duncan McGilvray, present, signed his X. later Ida

Hi, I have received messages of this nature in the past and immediately delete them. Don't ever click on the link. I'm pretty sure it's some kind of a virus. If not, then it's a good bet that someone has hacked into your email account. At one time, I sent a separate email to the person who sent the message and they advised me their email address had been comprised (?) and they had to change their email address. I'm not sure if this is the case here, but I don't take any chances with this sort of message. Hope all in wonderful on Mull and I really hope I can get back there sometime. I know I must have Mackinnon cousins in and around the Tobermory area, I just need more time to find them. Merry Christmas to everyone. Valeria Greenwood Nova Scotia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Phillips" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] question! > Hi Everyone, > > I rather suspect that the message is a hoax and I would strongly suggest > that the email is NOT opened until Helen is able to confirm this. > > I opened it to find that I was a prize winner. If you continue pass this > point I suspect that a virus (or similar) will be planted on your machine. > > Regards, > > Ian > > On 15 December 2011 12:34, HEATHER BEATON <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hi Everybody! >> I haven't had anything to ask of late but I continue reading the posts >> and >> replies & I may have missed one or two: Helen Danes sent in "See This" - >> see what? There isn't anything there and the "link" doesn't go anywhere. >> >> Sometimes I am technically inept..... just asking! >> >> Heather Beaton >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Everybody! I haven't had anything to ask of late but I continue reading the posts and replies & I may have missed one or two: Helen Danes sent in "See This" - see what? There isn't anything there and the "link" doesn't go anywhere. Sometimes I am technically inept..... just asking! Heather Beaton

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Hi Elizabeth:   Was the Reverend McNaughton

_____ De : jeanetjean [mailto:[email protected]] Envoyé : mercredi 14 décembre 2011 10:31 À : '[email protected]' Objet : Macdougals I have nothing very useful to offer but I am very interested in information on the MacDougal family as I have a ggg-grandmother who was Isabella MacDougal on the Ross of Mull. She married James Campbell and had children in the 1790’s. Four sons, John, Neil, Donald and James settled in the Ottawa Valley in 1821. Neil was a tenant in Shiaba before he left. Best wishes, Jean

Since the original emails on Ted's McDougall quest I must confess I have not followed these recent replies in depth(but will do ) I am a g'daughter of a male MacDougall with roots back to Neil McDougall and Effie (Gaelic Oighrig) McPhail who were in Torosay when children were born late 1700s - early 1800s as MCLULLICH. Later records show them as McDougall MacDougall. In 1841 my NEIL McDougall app 70 years is in Garmony with Effie. Some of the sons I have documented well on Mainland Scotland. Ted if we ever find a direct link from your line to mine then maybe one of my living male McDougall could test yDna. (I have had my brother tested for our Paternal line and it is such interesting stuff.) Anyone else Please if you can help me anymore with who my Neil b c 1760s was son of - would be great! Certainly in Torosay for children's births and Garmony Kinlochspelve 1841. Could he be born 1767 app to a Donald in Kilpatrick? In whic case he had a brother Archibald b c 1775. Tricia -----Original Message----- From: [email protected]tsweb.com [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ted Mills Sent: 13 December 2011 8:09 PM To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] SCT-ISLEOFMULL Digest, Vol 6, Issue 297 Dear Elizabeth, Louise, Ida: I am grateful for the attention you have given to my request and for all the information shared - the legendaryhelpfulness of the genealogy community has again been demonstrated! I have a couple of questions, and then (below) some replies to your posts. Question 1: Can you explain how a McLucais family can become a McDougall family? Are there naming conventions peculiar to Scottish families of that time? A switch from MacKinnon to McKinney makes more intuitive sense to me, if only on phonic grounds. Question 2: What is "KandK" presumably in Mull?

Dear Ian, Many many thanks. I obviously was mistaken. Though I have the total 1779 census I must never have bothered to look up McNaughton, it being a name which appears in my tree only in the 32-surname generation, of which I do less. I must have limited my searches to IGI/familysearch. Another excuse is, probably, that there is a Rev. Peter McNaughton who miinisters in Vaughan to the Scots community in Gallic in the 1830's and 1840's and he is from Perthshire. Well documented and I always suspected related. Also Flora is a very early pioneer, in 1820, and so I hadn't bothered to make any correlations based on later British censi. I'll try some connecting using your data and my 1779 census and see if there is progress. Thank you so very much. Elizabeth. > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:09:19 +0000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] FW: McDougall/McKillop marriage > > Hi Elizabeth, > > Re your comment 'I could not find one McNaughton, of any spelling, on Mull > or Iona'. > > Did did a quick census check and found the following. There are even more > entries under the Surname index. > > Regards, > > Ian > > 1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902180>McNaughtanNeil42 > (1737) Workman1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanArchibald3(1776) His > son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanDonald30(1749) > Cottar1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanHugh1(1778) His > son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> > McNaughtanJohn5(1774) His > son1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> > McNaughtonCathrine13(1828) Female > ServantY1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> > McNaughtonWidow50(1791) Female > ServantY1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> > MacNaughtenCatherine23(1828) Ud > Tobermory1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> > MacNaughtenCatherine65(1786) w > sewerArdnarnurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187121650> > McNaughtonDuncan25(1846) Visitor Assistant Minister > *****Ardnamurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> > McNaughtonIsabella21(1850) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal > 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760>McNaughtonJames > 23(1848) Head Farmer**** of Argyll > Cowal1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> > McNaughtonMargaret28(1843) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal > 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230>McNaughton > Alexander2(1869) Son ScholarTobermory > Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonBell4(1867) Dau ScholarTobermory > Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonMary10(1861) Dau ScholarArgyleshire > Torosay1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> > McNaughtonSarah33(1838) Wife Isla > Bowmore1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188112070><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=189121790> > McNaughtonJemima48(1833) Head HousekeeperKilfinichen, Argyll, > Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> > McNaughtJames12(1869) Boarder Herd BoyIrvine, Ayr, > Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> > McNaughtWilliam38(1843) Boarder (Head) Joiner JourneymanStevenson, Ayr, > Scotland1881 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188151040>NaughtonColl > D.9(1872) Grandson ScholarGlasgow, Lanark, > Scotland1891<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=189121790><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=188112070> > McNaughtonJemima58(1833) Sister DressmakerKilfinichen, Argyllshire > On 12 December 2011 19:57, elizabeth mcdonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Ted, Louise and Ida, > > Further to my e-mail below of Saturday I have some more info. > > > > The Mary and Marion below were born in the village of > > Torranachtrach and Murdoch and Ann in Killunaig. (I am doing this from > > memory and may have them reversed). Whether the parents of all four are > > the same couple, or of the two couples, needs a look at the microfilm to > > determine (and may not even then straighten it our). My info above is from > > Jo Currie's handwritten notes in the Mull Museum archives in which she has > > pulled out all births and marriages either from the microfilm, or, (living > > in Edinburgh herself,) from the primary source, the original book, in the > > New Register House in Edinburgh. > > > > In collating Jo's work in 2009, I recorded some 8 McDougall > > couples in Torranachtrach and some 6 in Killunaig - thus leading to > > suppositions that all these folk (both genders) in each farm and born in > > the 1780's and 1790's, could be siblings. Killunaig is on the coast just > > sw of Pennyghael and Torrans is the next farm sw with Torranachtrach the > > village back of it in the hills above the coast. > > > > On first look I could not find the two marriages which > > suggests only that the two couples were not married in Torranachtrach or > > Killunaig or Pennyghael, the three villages' records I photocopied from > > Jo's notes. > > > > My Neil and Marion/Sarah's marriage is there, he as from > > Torranachtrach and she from Killunaig. So are 'my' kids' christenings. > > > > Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new > > to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would > > think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'? > > > > Could it be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of > > Torranachtrach on Mull is yours and that later in life he moved to > > Islay/Kildalton to work and listed the latter as his abode on emigration? > > > > For example, this happened to one of my great-grandfathers. > > He was born and raised in Saddell and Skipness on Kintyre on the Skipness > > Estate. When his parents died, within two weeks of each other (cause to > > date unknown - cholera? Irish potato famine?) he was only 11 and the > > second youngest of 11. His elder brother became head of the family and > > took the four kids still at home to Islay when he took up a job there > > teaching school. They all are on the Kildalton 1851 census and the whole > > family with parents in the 1841 Skipness census. At least 6 of the 11 > > emigrated at different times to Ontario, but from where I don't yet know, > > as I have yet to find ships' lists. > > > > So it could be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Islay > > is also the Murdoch McDougall of Mull. > > > > Would you like to have me look up the microfilm to check on > > these two John McDougall marriages and the four baptisms to check out the > > estates/villages/farms, Ted? Our local Mormon Church's Family History > > Centre is very handy and the microfilm might still be there. > > > > Thank you, Louise, for the offer to help me with Flora > > McNaughton. That would be fantastic! I could not find one McNaughton, of > > any spelling, on Mull or Iona. Her husband's record on the obelisk > > tombstone in Maple says he is from Iona (Icolcom) but hers on the stone > > does not. I think I found one McNaughton on Tiree at one time but did not > > follow it up. > > > > So far I have her the daughter, Euphan, of John McNaughton > > and Isabella Caddell, of Dowally, Perthshire!!! A long way from Iona!! > > And absolutely no cross-references to date. Only that Flora names two > > different daughters by the same name of Isabella, and has a son John. And > > the age fits. Also that her husband Archibald McDonald is on the > > 'conscription' list for Iona in the late 1790's at the beginning of the > > Napoleonic Wars. If he were in the army he could have been garrisoned at > > Stirling Castle or somewhere in Perthshire and that could have been how > > they met. All speculation to date. I have not yet ventured into the realm > > of military history by way of Kew: it's on my mental list. So any help > > with Flora would be very much appeciated. > > > > Drop a line Ted, if you wish me me to pursue the Murdoch > > McDougall of The Ross of Mull. > > > > All the best. > > > > > > Elizabeth McDonald. > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:19:59 +0000 > > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] McDougall/McKillop marriage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ted, > > > I have my McDougall binders with me to-day and have been doing some > > computer research. > > > > > > Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, > > is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch > > baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? > > > > > > John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John > > McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. > > > > > > There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who > > knows. (A trip to the microfilm should give the farm/village, and thus > > possibly answer that question). > > > > > > They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c > > 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. > > This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage. > > > > > > Since the KandK OPR starts only in 1804, knowing the relationship of the > > fathers born in the 1790's is a guessing game. But it is possible that my > > Neil born circa 1790 and your John, married 1815, are brothers. > > > > > > My records show Johns this side as: John McDugal/McLucais and Jane > > Thoburn of Pennyghael and Mariposa who have three kids in the OPR the first > > two baptized as McLucais and that last, a John, baptized as McDougal. No > > Murdoch. > > > > > > John and Jane are late arrivals. My Neil and Sarah arrive with children > > 1832-3. He is listed in the tax assessments for Mariposa in the early > > 1830's. Unfortunately Mariposa is not in the 1837 Home District Directory > > though Brock to the west is. > > > > > > It is possible that your Murdoch who says on marriage he is 32 (born > > 1834) but in the 1871 census and death is listed as > > > 42 and 46 respectively (1829, 1828), lied about his age to his > > 20-year-old bride so he would not appear to be at his real age - 37. > > > I've seen this before. > > > > > > My Neil's first son is a John suggesting that, as per Scottish naming > > custom, his father is a John. > > > > > > In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > > > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period > > with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > > > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings > > and parents > > > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John > > born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > > > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was > > surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled > > 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in > > the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). (Even > > as late as the 1870's the top of the Bruce Peninsula was still Indian > > Country. Tobermory at the top is named after the main town on Mull.) > > > > > > We will need a lot more cross-references to prove the above as fact. > > Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the > > original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm > > names. > > > > > > If Neil is your Murdoch's uncle then Murdoch is a first cousin to my > > ggrandmother Christina born to Neil and Sarah on this side in 1833, and we > > are fourth cousins. > > > > > > My Neil and Sarah's first four children are in the OPR - born in > > Scotland - Mary 2.1.1816, John 13.4.1817, Murdoch 7.7.1827 and Marion > > 8.1.1830 all in Killunaig. Others are Donald, and Allan born in Scotland > > and Isabella and Christina born on this side. I know the lines down of > > Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not > > familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion. > > > > > > All the best. > > > Elizabeth > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Ted, Lots of questions to answer. Will do so in detail later this week. But for the moment the 1901 Canadian census is on line at/google 'automatedgenealogy' as are the 1852, 1906 (the West only) and 1911 at the same site, an effort made by volunteers who transcribed them from the microfilm over the last few years - and a wonderful gift to all of us. Unfortunately, as mentioned before, the 1852 is missing for Mariposa. KandK is short for Kilfinian and Kilvickson, the civil parish, one of three on Mull, it being the furthest south and covering The Ross peninsula and Broloss. McDougalls called themselves McLucais but I don't know why - I'm assuming as a result of the 1745 Rebellion. They appeared to have changed back circa 1822-28 as evidenced in the baptisms of both my family and of yours if we have the right one for you. Other names and spellings were also used. Louise might be able to help you with more aliases. I can check the Bruce County original land records from the Crown on the microfiche at our local Mormon Family History Centre. All the best. Elizabeth. > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:09:15 -0600 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] SCT-ISLEOFMULL Digest, Vol 6, Issue 297 > > Dear Elizabeth, Louise, Ida: I am grateful for the attention you have > given to my request and for all the information shared - the > legendaryhelpfulness of the genealogy community has again been > demonstrated! I have a couple of questions, and then (below) some > replies to your posts. Question 1: Can you explain how a McLucais > family can become a McDougall family? Are there naming conventions > peculiar to Scottish families of that time? A switch from MacKinnon to > McKinney makes more intuitive sense to me, if only on phonic grounds. > Question 2: What is "KandK" presumably in Mull? > > Are you all located in Canada? I thought at first that you were in > Scotland. My home (from which I am on winter holiday in Texas) is in > northern New York, about 60 miles south of Montreal, so I feel a certain > affinity with Canadian friends. Each year we are in PQ several times, > for a OMS concert, or to visit our veterinarian, or to buy apples, etc. > > Elizabeth, here are my responses to several of your suggestions/questions: > > You wrote: "Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'?" > > I reply: Yes, it is new to me, but no, that in itself would not explain the crossover, for the reason you suggest. But I am guessing that either a) an adoption or b) an out-of-wedlock birth or c) an out-of-family placement of a child, or d) some combination of the above led to a McDougall child being raised a McKinney or vice versa, and the propinquity of families of those names would provide opportunity for such events. Also, the crossover would have to have happened prior to 1792, since we have five McKinney menwhose yDNA is virtually identical, who areproven male descendants of James McKinney, born 1792 in Wiscasset, Maine, USA, in addition to Malcolm McDougall's yDNA which also is nearly identical to theirs. > > Thus my effort to identify Malcolm's 18th century progenitors has led me to ask these questions of you, hoping to find a likely McKinney-McDougall connection back then. This also leads me to look for a male McDougall descendant of Malcolm's ancestors today who would do yDNA testing, hoping his marker profile would be close to ours. > > You wrote: "Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who knows. . . . They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage." > > > I respond: Yes, that's a good suggestion, a worthy working > hypothesis. If a return to the mf for the village or farm would clarify > parentage, that would help. > > > You wrote: "In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings and parents > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). > Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm names." > > I reply: Where can I learn more about the clearing of the Ross by the > Duke of Argyll? And can I do the land registry records via Internet? > Where to start? > > In speaking about your Neil and Sarah McDougall's children, you wrote: " > > In speaking about your Neil and Sarah McDougall's children, you wrote: "I know the lines down of Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion." > > I reply: It is possible that the Mary whom you mention is the woman who > became my Murdoch's wife - can any more be known of her marriage and > descendants? > > And finally, you wrote: "Ted, here is another possibility. I have found > that sometimes when the bride is already pregnant, the couple leave the > community and marry in Toronto, thus preferring the anonymity. I find > that in most early marriages there are just men, the fathers, as > witnesses. Before 1878 women had no legal rights, even to guardianship > of their own children on the early death of a husband. When a women > appears as a witness, eg your Anne, I always think it is a red flag, and > the residency in Toronto possibly transitory. The fact that a witness > is listed as my Neil McDougall of Mariposa is another red flag. The way > to check is to cross-reference the birth date of the first child in the > 1901 census with the marriage date of the parents." > > I reply: This is a good idea too, and I will do it if I can get access > to the 1901 census. Since I am not subscribed to Ancestry.com, I will > have to use other sources. > > Thanks again to all of you for your help. Looking forward to more > correspondence with you - Ted > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Elizabeth, Louise, Ida: I am grateful for the attention you have given to my request and for all the information shared - the legendaryhelpfulness of the genealogy community has again been demonstrated! I have a couple of questions, and then (below) some replies to your posts. Question 1: Can you explain how a McLucais family can become a McDougall family? Are there naming conventions peculiar to Scottish families of that time? A switch from MacKinnon to McKinney makes more intuitive sense to me, if only on phonic grounds. Question 2: What is "KandK" presumably in Mull? Are you all located in Canada? I thought at first that you were in Scotland. My home (from which I am on winter holiday in Texas) is in northern New York, about 60 miles south of Montreal, so I feel a certain affinity with Canadian friends. Each year we are in PQ several times, for a OMS concert, or to visit our veterinarian, or to buy apples, etc. Elizabeth, here are my responses to several of your suggestions/questions: You wrote: "Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'?" I reply: Yes, it is new to me, but no, that in itself would not explain the crossover, for the reason you suggest. But I am guessing that either a) an adoption or b) an out-of-wedlock birth or c) an out-of-family placement of a child, or d) some combination of the above led to a McDougall child being raised a McKinney or vice versa, and the propinquity of families of those names would provide opportunity for such events. Also, the crossover would have to have happened prior to 1792, since we have five McKinney menwhose yDNA is virtually identical, who areproven male descendants of James McKinney, born 1792 in Wiscasset, Maine, USA, in addition to Malcolm McDougall's yDNA which also is nearly identical to theirs. Thus my effort to identify Malcolm's 18th century progenitors has led me to ask these questions of you, hoping to find a likely McKinney-McDougall connection back then. This also leads me to look for a male McDougall descendant of Malcolm's ancestors today who would do yDNA testing, hoping his marker profile would be close to ours. You wrote: "Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who knows. . . . They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage." I respond: Yes, that's a good suggestion, a worthy working hypothesis. If a return to the mf for the village or farm would clarify parentage, that would help. You wrote: "In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings and parents 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm names." I reply: Where can I learn more about the clearing of the Ross by the Duke of Argyll? And can I do the land registry records via Internet? Where to start? In speaking about your Neil and Sarah McDougall's children, you wrote: " In speaking about your Neil and Sarah McDougall's children, you wrote: "I know the lines down of Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion." I reply: It is possible that the Mary whom you mention is the woman who became my Murdoch's wife - can any more be known of her marriage and descendants? And finally, you wrote: "Ted, here is another possibility. I have found that sometimes when the bride is already pregnant, the couple leave the community and marry in Toronto, thus preferring the anonymity. I find that in most early marriages there are just men, the fathers, as witnesses. Before 1878 women had no legal rights, even to guardianship of their own children on the early death of a husband. When a women appears as a witness, eg your Anne, I always think it is a red flag, and the residency in Toronto possibly transitory. The fact that a witness is listed as my Neil McDougall of Mariposa is another red flag. The way to check is to cross-reference the birth date of the first child in the 1901 census with the marriage date of the parents." I reply: This is a good idea too, and I will do it if I can get access to the 1901 census. Since I am not subscribed to Ancestry.com, I will have to use other sources. Thanks again to all of you for your help. Looking forward to more correspondence with you - Ted

Hi Elizabeth, Re your comment 'I could not find one McNaughton, of any spelling, on Mull or Iona'. Did did a quick census check and found the following. There are even more entries under the Surname index. Regards, Ian 1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902180>McNaughtanNeil42 (1737) Workman1779 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanArchibald3(1776) His son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanDonald30(1749) Cottar1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanHugh1(1778) His son1779<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=177902190> McNaughtanJohn5(1774) His son1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> McNaughtonCathrine13(1828) Female ServantY1841<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=184160970><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=185181750> McNaughtonWidow50(1791) Female ServantY1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> MacNaughtenCatherine23(1828) Ud Tobermory1851<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=185181750><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=184160970> MacNaughtenCatherine65(1786) w sewerArdnarnurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187121650> McNaughtonDuncan25(1846) Visitor Assistant Minister *****Ardnamurchan1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> McNaughtonIsabella21(1850) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760>McNaughtonJames 23(1848) Head Farmer**** of Argyll Cowal1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187140760> McNaughtonMargaret28(1843) Sister Sister emplyed with**** of Argyll Cowal 1871 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230>McNaughton Alexander2(1869) Son ScholarTobermory Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonBell4(1867) Dau ScholarTobermory Argyll1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonMary10(1861) Dau ScholarArgyleshire Torosay1871<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=187161230> McNaughtonSarah33(1838) Wife Isla Bowmore1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188112070><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=189121790> McNaughtonJemima48(1833) Head HousekeeperKilfinichen, Argyll, Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> McNaughtJames12(1869) Boarder Herd BoyIrvine, Ayr, Scotland1881<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188140130> McNaughtWilliam38(1843) Boarder (Head) Joiner JourneymanStevenson, Ayr, Scotland1881 <http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=188151040>NaughtonColl D.9(1872) Grandson ScholarGlasgow, Lanark, Scotland1891<http://localhost/mull_census_f.asp?prop_ref=189121790><http://localhost/mull_census.asp?prop_ref=188112070> McNaughtonJemima58(1833) Sister DressmakerKilfinichen, Argyllshire On 12 December 2011 19:57, elizabeth mcdonald <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Ted, Louise and Ida, > Further to my e-mail below of Saturday I have some more info. > > The Mary and Marion below were born in the village of > Torranachtrach and Murdoch and Ann in Killunaig. (I am doing this from > memory and may have them reversed). Whether the parents of all four are > the same couple, or of the two couples, needs a look at the microfilm to > determine (and may not even then straighten it our). My info above is from > Jo Currie's handwritten notes in the Mull Museum archives in which she has > pulled out all births and marriages either from the microfilm, or, (living > in Edinburgh herself,) from the primary source, the original book, in the > New Register House in Edinburgh. > > In collating Jo's work in 2009, I recorded some 8 McDougall > couples in Torranachtrach and some 6 in Killunaig - thus leading to > suppositions that all these folk (both genders) in each farm and born in > the 1780's and 1790's, could be siblings. Killunaig is on the coast just > sw of Pennyghael and Torrans is the next farm sw with Torranachtrach the > village back of it in the hills above the coast. > > On first look I could not find the two marriages which > suggests only that the two couples were not married in Torranachtrach or > Killunaig or Pennyghael, the three villages' records I photocopied from > Jo's notes. > > My Neil and Marion/Sarah's marriage is there, he as from > Torranachtrach and she from Killunaig. So are 'my' kids' christenings. > > Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new > to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would > think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'? > > Could it be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of > Torranachtrach on Mull is yours and that later in life he moved to > Islay/Kildalton to work and listed the latter as his abode on emigration? > > For example, this happened to one of my great-grandfathers. > He was born and raised in Saddell and Skipness on Kintyre on the Skipness > Estate. When his parents died, within two weeks of each other (cause to > date unknown - cholera? Irish potato famine?) he was only 11 and the > second youngest of 11. His elder brother became head of the family and > took the four kids still at home to Islay when he took up a job there > teaching school. They all are on the Kildalton 1851 census and the whole > family with parents in the 1841 Skipness census. At least 6 of the 11 > emigrated at different times to Ontario, but from where I don't yet know, > as I have yet to find ships' lists. > > So it could be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Islay > is also the Murdoch McDougall of Mull. > > Would you like to have me look up the microfilm to check on > these two John McDougall marriages and the four baptisms to check out the > estates/villages/farms, Ted? Our local Mormon Church's Family History > Centre is very handy and the microfilm might still be there. > > Thank you, Louise, for the offer to help me with Flora > McNaughton. That would be fantastic! I could not find one McNaughton, of > any spelling, on Mull or Iona. Her husband's record on the obelisk > tombstone in Maple says he is from Iona (Icolcom) but hers on the stone > does not. I think I found one McNaughton on Tiree at one time but did not > follow it up. > > So far I have her the daughter, Euphan, of John McNaughton > and Isabella Caddell, of Dowally, Perthshire!!! A long way from Iona!! > And absolutely no cross-references to date. Only that Flora names two > different daughters by the same name of Isabella, and has a son John. And > the age fits. Also that her husband Archibald McDonald is on the > 'conscription' list for Iona in the late 1790's at the beginning of the > Napoleonic Wars. If he were in the army he could have been garrisoned at > Stirling Castle or somewhere in Perthshire and that could have been how > they met. All speculation to date. I have not yet ventured into the realm > of military history by way of Kew: it's on my mental list. So any help > with Flora would be very much appeciated. > > Drop a line Ted, if you wish me me to pursue the Murdoch > McDougall of The Ross of Mull. > > All the best. > > > Elizabeth McDonald. > > > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:19:59 +0000 > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] McDougall/McKillop marriage > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Ted, > > I have my McDougall binders with me to-day and have been doing some > computer research. > > > > Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, > is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch > baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? > > > > John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John > McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. > > > > There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who > knows. (A trip to the microfilm should give the farm/village, and thus > possibly answer that question). > > > > They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c > 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. > This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage. > > > > Since the KandK OPR starts only in 1804, knowing the relationship of the > fathers born in the 1790's is a guessing game. But it is possible that my > Neil born circa 1790 and your John, married 1815, are brothers. > > > > My records show Johns this side as: John McDugal/McLucais and Jane > Thoburn of Pennyghael and Mariposa who have three kids in the OPR the first > two baptized as McLucais and that last, a John, baptized as McDougal. No > Murdoch. > > > > John and Jane are late arrivals. My Neil and Sarah arrive with children > 1832-3. He is listed in the tax assessments for Mariposa in the early > 1830's. Unfortunately Mariposa is not in the 1837 Home District Directory > though Brock to the west is. > > > > It is possible that your Murdoch who says on marriage he is 32 (born > 1834) but in the 1871 census and death is listed as > > 42 and 46 respectively (1829, 1828), lied about his age to his > 20-year-old bride so he would not appear to be at his real age - 37. > > I've seen this before. > > > > My Neil's first son is a John suggesting that, as per Scottish naming > custom, his father is a John. > > > > In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period > with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings > and parents > > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John > born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was > surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled > 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in > the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). (Even > as late as the 1870's the top of the Bruce Peninsula was still Indian > Country. Tobermory at the top is named after the main town on Mull.) > > > > We will need a lot more cross-references to prove the above as fact. > Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the > original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm > names. > > > > If Neil is your Murdoch's uncle then Murdoch is a first cousin to my > ggrandmother Christina born to Neil and Sarah on this side in 1833, and we > are fourth cousins. > > > > My Neil and Sarah's first four children are in the OPR - born in > Scotland - Mary 2.1.1816, John 13.4.1817, Murdoch 7.7.1827 and Marion > 8.1.1830 all in Killunaig. Others are Donald, and Allan born in Scotland > and Isabella and Christina born on this side. I know the lines down of > Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not > familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion. > > > > All the best. > > Elizabeth > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Ted, Louise and Ida, Further to my e-mail below of Saturday I have some more info. The Mary and Marion below were born in the village of Torranachtrach and Murdoch and Ann in Killunaig. (I am doing this from memory and may have them reversed). Whether the parents of all four are the same couple, or of the two couples, needs a look at the microfilm to determine (and may not even then straighten it our). My info above is from Jo Currie's handwritten notes in the Mull Museum archives in which she has pulled out all births and marriages either from the microfilm, or, (living in Edinburgh herself,) from the primary source, the original book, in the New Register House in Edinburgh. In collating Jo's work in 2009, I recorded some 8 McDougall couples in Torranachtrach and some 6 in Killunaig - thus leading to suppositions that all these folk (both genders) in each farm and born in the 1780's and 1790's, could be siblings. Killunaig is on the coast just sw of Pennyghael and Torrans is the next farm sw with Torranachtrach the village back of it in the hills above the coast. On first look I could not find the two marriages which suggests only that the two couples were not married in Torranachtrach or Killunaig or Pennyghael, the three villages' records I photocopied from Jo's notes. My Neil and Marion/Sarah's marriage is there, he as from Torranachtrach and she from Killunaig. So are 'my' kids' christenings. Is the maiden name of Mary McDougall, that is McKinnon, new to you Ted? Would this explain your cross-over yDNA results though I would think not, as only male DNA is usually done - ie 'y'? Could it be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Torranachtrach on Mull is yours and that later in life he moved to Islay/Kildalton to work and listed the latter as his abode on emigration? For example, this happened to one of my great-grandfathers. He was born and raised in Saddell and Skipness on Kintyre on the Skipness Estate. When his parents died, within two weeks of each other (cause to date unknown - cholera? Irish potato famine?) he was only 11 and the second youngest of 11. His elder brother became head of the family and took the four kids still at home to Islay when he took up a job there teaching school. They all are on the Kildalton 1851 census and the whole family with parents in the 1841 Skipness census. At least 6 of the 11 emigrated at different times to Ontario, but from where I don't yet know, as I have yet to find ships' lists. So it could be possible that the Murdoch McDougall of Islay is also the Murdoch McDougall of Mull. Would you like to have me look up the microfilm to check on these two John McDougall marriages and the four baptisms to check out the estates/villages/farms, Ted? Our local Mormon Church's Family History Centre is very handy and the microfilm might still be there. Thank you, Louise, for the offer to help me with Flora McNaughton. That would be fantastic! I could not find one McNaughton, of any spelling, on Mull or Iona. Her husband's record on the obelisk tombstone in Maple says he is from Iona (Icolcom) but hers on the stone does not. I think I found one McNaughton on Tiree at one time but did not follow it up. So far I have her the daughter, Euphan, of John McNaughton and Isabella Caddell, of Dowally, Perthshire!!! A long way from Iona!! And absolutely no cross-references to date. Only that Flora names two different daughters by the same name of Isabella, and has a son John. And the age fits. Also that her husband Archibald McDonald is on the 'conscription' list for Iona in the late 1790's at the beginning of the Napoleonic Wars. If he were in the army he could have been garrisoned at Stirling Castle or somewhere in Perthshire and that could have been how they met. All speculation to date. I have not yet ventured into the realm of military history by way of Kew: it's on my mental list. So any help with Flora would be very much appeciated. Drop a line Ted, if you wish me me to pursue the Murdoch McDougall of The Ross of Mull. All the best. Elizabeth McDonald. > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 18:19:59 +0000 > Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLEOFMULL] McDougall/McKillop marriage > > > > > > Dear Ted, > I have my McDougall binders with me to-day and have been doing some computer research. > > Have you considered that your Murdoch McDougall, the groom in Toronto, is the son of the John McLucais and Mary McKinnon who have a son Murdoch baptised in KandK on Mull on 9.7.1826? > > John and Mary are married 12.12.1815 in KandK. There are another John McLucais and Mary McKinnon married in KandK on 26.1.1818. > > There are four children I have found so far - of either couple!! Who knows. (A trip to the microfilm should give the farm/village, and thus possibly answer that question). > > They are Murdoch, Mary c 30.6.1816, Marrion c 4.11. 1819, Murdoch c 9.7.1826 all in the OPR under McLucais and Ann c 14.8.1830 under McDougal. This Ann, 36 in 1866, could be your other witness to the marriage. > > Since the KandK OPR starts only in 1804, knowing the relationship of the fathers born in the 1790's is a guessing game. But it is possible that my Neil born circa 1790 and your John, married 1815, are brothers. > > My records show Johns this side as: John McDugal/McLucais and Jane Thoburn of Pennyghael and Mariposa who have three kids in the OPR the first two baptized as McLucais and that last, a John, baptized as McDougal. No Murdoch. > > John and Jane are late arrivals. My Neil and Sarah arrive with children 1832-3. He is listed in the tax assessments for Mariposa in the early 1830's. Unfortunately Mariposa is not in the 1837 Home District Directory though Brock to the west is. > > It is possible that your Murdoch who says on marriage he is 32 (born 1834) but in the 1871 census and death is listed as > 42 and 46 respectively (1829, 1828), lied about his age to his 20-year-old bride so he would not appear to be at his real age - 37. > I've seen this before. > > My Neil's first son is a John suggesting that, as per Scottish naming custom, his father is a John. > > In summary, the way I see it so far is - some evidence, some speculation: > 1. Your Murdoch is a late pioneer, coming over in the 1849-51 period with the clearing of The Ross by the Duke of Argyll > 2. He came over as a bachelor and possibly alone - without his siblings and parents > 3. My Neil is his uncle on this side. (There is no evidence of a John born in the 1790's on this side save John married to Jane Thoburn). > 4. Murdoch bought land in Bruce County when it opened up and was surveyed in the early 1850's (Grey, Huron and Bruce Counties were settled 'late', and mainly by younger pioneer sons in the Home District who came in the 1820's and 1830's or by the later immigrants in the 1840's-50's). (Even as late as the 1870's the top of the Bruce Peninsula was still Indian Country. Tobermory at the top is named after the main town on Mull.) > > We will need a lot more cross-references to prove the above as fact. Places to look next are the land registry records on microfiche of the original settlers in Bruce, and the KandK baptisms for the village/farm names. > > If Neil is your Murdoch's uncle then Murdoch is a first cousin to my ggrandmother Christina born to Neil and Sarah on this side in 1833, and we are fourth cousins. > > My Neil and Sarah's first four children are in the OPR - born in Scotland - Mary 2.1.1816, John 13.4.1817, Murdoch 7.7.1827 and Marion 8.1.1830 all in Killunaig. Others are Donald, and Allan born in Scotland and Isabella and Christina born on this side. I know the lines down of Donald, Allan, Murdoch, Isabella and of course Christina, but am not familiar with, and done any research on children Mary, John and Marrion. > > All the best. > Elizabeth > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message