Thanks James! ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Maxwell" <James.Maxwell@tesco.net> To: <SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:16 AM Subject: [SCT-ISLAY] Re: "the other side of the blanket" Hi Sue As mentioned in your para 7, I think this might be the answer. "One reason you may not find birth/ baptism records could be due to the Stamp Act of 1783 which imposed a tax of 3d on every entry of a birth/baptism, marriage and burial. Although this Act was repealed in 1794 it did have the effect of deterring people from registering births, marriages and deaths for about 10 years." Best wishes James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue V" <genealgal2@execulink.com> To: <SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:20 PM Subject: "the other side of the blanket" > Hi all > > A couple of weeks ago, in fun (put it down to the winter blahs!) I asked a > hypothetical question: "The couple had a good marriage - but it was a > confirmed common law union. They lived together for 42 years. Are their > children illegitimate?" I had no specific family in mind but wondered how > the list would consider these circumstances. There were dozens of > responses, some quite detailed. Unfortunately I didn't state a time > frame or specific country but nonetheless, the responses were quite > interesting. A couple were lengthy and one in particular very informative > and I've asked its writer to forward it to the list. Interestingly enough > less than 25% stated firmly that the children were illegitimate without > question - that means that 75% were undecided. > > Thank you to all who shared their comments and insight. A couple of you > have really off beat humour - thanks for making me laugh too. What > started out as a fun question turned into one requiring deep thought. I'm > sure a huge book could be written on this topic so it will be somewhat > inadequate to try to cover it all in this format but I'll try to cover > part of it - no doubt missing far too much too. > > There are 2 ways to consider illegitimacy - a child born without any > marriage of any kind and a child born within a union that is not > recognized as traditional marriage and therefore deemed illegal. > > First consider the child born without any marriage...in the OPRs, this > child is indicated as "illegitimate" with the mother noted but no father > indicated. In Ted Larson's transcriptions of Islay births for the period > to 1855, there were 418 children listed without fathers. What was life > like for these children - and for their mothers? I sadly noted the number > of illegitimate children who died in infancy when examining Ted's death > transcriptions (see posts in Sept and Oct 2002) - some had reasons of > death like scarletina noted and other had "unknown" as the reason of death > but I do wonder if these children were "allowed" to die. > > The second kind of illegitimate child - one born within a union not > recognized as a legal marriage....first we need to know the various kinds > of marriages that have been in Scotland. (Note: Art Hunter posted a > detailed email on marriage Scottish law Oct 5, 2000 that is definitely > worth re-reading and I have 'lifted' some of the content to include here) > > 1) Taken from "Life in Scotland A Hundred Years Ago" by James Murray, as > reflected in the Old Statistical Accounts: "A fair was held annually...at > that place it was the custom of the unmarried persons of both sexes to > choose a companion according to their liking, with whom they were to live > till that time, next year. This was called 'hand fasting', or hand in > fist. If they were pleased with each other at that time, then they > continued together in life; if not, they separated and were free to make > another choice. The fruit of this connection, if any, was always attached > to the disaffected person". > > 2) Marriage by banns: banns were called three consecutive Sundays at > Church. After the third calling, without ceremony necessary, they were > consider married (Paul Smart, Bishop, LDS Utah, conference speaker 1995). > As we see in the OPRs, if the bride and groom were from different > parishes, the bans were called in each of their parishes. > > 3) Only wealthier people or people of consequence/standing were married > by license (Paul Smart, 1995). > > 4) Marriage of Declaration: both parties declared that they accepted one > another as husband and wife (probably similar to #1) > > 5) Marriage by Habit and Repute - if 2 persons in respect of whom there > is no legal impediment to marriage, live together and behave towards each > other in public as though they are husband and wife, then it can be held > that that a marriage has been established. > > 6) Runaway or 'Gretna Green' marriages. Involved English participants > crossing over to Scotland where marriage laws were much more lax and isn't > a focus for Islay marriages. > > 7) undocumented marriages. I recall a discussion with list members (live > or online I cannot remember - Toni Sinclair - do you remember?) that there > were times when fees were charged by the clerics to document a marriage > (or birth or death) in the parish records. How often did this > happen....the banns were read but the fees were beyond their means so > while they were legally married, it was not documented. The children > born to this union would be known as legitimate at that time, but the > researcher many generations ahead might consider the children illegitimate > because the marriage documentation isn't found. > > So now we consider the children born to the above various kinds of unions. > Are they illegitimate? According to Webster's Dictionary, marriage means > 1) the state of being married; 2) the mutual relation of husband and wife; > 3) the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of > social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a > family. According to the same dictionary, illegitimate means: 1) not > recognized as lawful offspring; 2) born of parents not married to each > other. The answer to my question about illegitimacy is as individual as > how each of us interprets "marriage". Personally I don't believe there is > a black-and-white, one-size-fits-all answer. > > Cheerio > Sue Visser > > > ______________________________ ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== To visit the website associated with this project, visit: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/data.htm __________ NOD32 1.1373 (20060120) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com __________ NOD32 1.1373 (20060120) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com

Forwarded from the Wigtownshire list - Forename Variants Variations in forenames are very common in the records. The name by which a person was born or christened, might look very different when they married or died. For example, Elizabeth might be known and/or recorded as Elisabeth, Eliza, Betty, Betsy, Beth, Bessie, Elspeth, Elsie, to name but a few. Some of the influences brought to bear on Scottish forenames are indicated below. Abbreviations, Diminutives, Nicknames/pet names Records are full of abbreviated forms of some forenames, e.g. William might be recorded as Will, Wm. or Willm., Charles as Chas., Margaret as Margt. or Mgt., James as Jas., Alexander as Alexr., and so on. Also, diminutives, nicknames and pet names, if habitually in use, might be recorded instead of the proper name, e.g. Euphan/Eupham/Effy for Euphemia, Katie/Kate/Kath/Kathy for Katherine, Jamie/Jimmy/Jim for James, Maggie/Meg/Peggy for Margaret, Alec/Alex/Sandy/Eck for Alexander, Dod for George. This is particularly prevalent in the Old Parish Register records, and probably more so in smaller parishes, where the person recording the information, usually the session clerk or the minister, would know the families in the area. Anglicising forenames It was very common for registrars in Gaelic-speaking areas of the Highlands and Western Isles to anglicise common Gaelic forenames, for instance recording Morag as Mary, Iain as John and Hamish as James. Gaelic-speaking families themselves, who migrated to urban areas, may also have anglicised their names. Ambiguous names Names that, today, we would normally associate with boys were occasionally (mainly in the North of Scotland) given to girls and vice versa, for example, Nicholas. Christian, viewed as a boy's name today, was quite a common girl's name in Scotland, and used as an alternative to Christina. Sometimes during indexing of the Old Parish Registers, it was unclear from the name whether the child was male or female, particularly if the entry recorded "child of" instead of "son of" or "daughter of". Further confusion would arise if the name had been abbreviated and that abbreviated form could apply equally to a boy or a girl, e.g. Willm. might be William or Williamina. In such cases, a "U" for unstated was entered in the index to ensure that the wrong sex was not attributed. These "U" values are included in all Male, Female or Both Sex searches. Many boys' names were transformed into girls' names by adding "ina", e.g. Thomasina, Georgina, Hughina, Jamesina, Williamina. These names might be abbreviated to Ina in later life. Williamina might become Mina. Interchangeable names Some names are completely interchangeable e.g. Agnes and Nancy, Donald and Daniel. Jane could be recorded as Jean, Jessie or Janet. Early spellings may vary from later ones , e.g. Jannet, Jhonet, Jonat, Jonnet or Jonet instead of Janet, Margrat or Margret for Margaret, Henrie for Henry, Andro or Androw for Andrew, Alisoun, Alesoune, Alisone for Alison. Traditional naming patterns Scots often named children by following a simple set of rules: 1st son named after father's father 2nd son named after mother's father 3rd son named after father 1st daughter named after mother's mother 2nd daughter named after father's mother 3rd daughter named after mother Although this was not universally applied (some families adhered strictly, others "dabbled" and still others ignored it), it can still be helpful in determining the correct entry when confronting the relative lack of information in the OPR's. It can also give rise to great confusion when eight children of the same family in a small parish name their offspring according to convention! The use of traditional naming patterns gradually declined during the 19th century. The application of naming conventions and the general desire to ensure that a family forename perpetuated through the generations, sometimes led to duplication of forenames within a family. For example, where a family wished to adhere strictly to the traditional naming pattern, and both grandfathers bore the same forename, that name might be given to more than child. If a child died young, parents might name a later child after the dead sibling. In unfortunate cases, the name may have been used more than once. Sometimes there appears to be no rhyme or reason to the naming: a child might be named after the minister, an employer, an influential personage in the community or a close friend, who might appear as a witness to the birth. Witnesses are not always given in OPR entries, but where they are, sometimes (as in Dundee) you will find their relationship to child, if any, noted, e.g. "Charles Jobson, grandfather", "Mrs Janet Speid, father's mother". Middle names The existence of a middle name can be extremely helpful to the family historian. Parents might use the mother or a grandmother's maiden name as a child's middle name. However, do not assume that this name will appear in all subsequent records pertaining to that child. Consider also the possibility that a person might use his/her middle name as the first name in later life and be recorded as such.

My relatives have told my that an old picture I have posted on the internet, believed to be taken somewhere on Islay in the mid 1800s, is from a funeral and that there are no women in the picture because they didn't go to funerals. see photo at: www3.telus.net/artnorma/johnston. Or maybe it just wasn't common for women to be in many photos?? Any comments or thoughts? Norma

Hi, Jope Loughead asked if I thought the following might be of interest to the List members. Since I thought it most likely, I am sending it on! Regards, Lynne Kemp. The Collingwood Enterprise October 5, 1922 p1c1 GLASGOW ISLAY ASSOCIATION AT DULUTH SOME HISTORIC EVENTS (Published by request) The syllabus of the Glasgow Islay Association concluded with a lecture by Mr. Peter Reid, formerly a factor on Kildalton, Islay. Among those present, were Mr. J. Mactaggart, president: Captain Gilbert Macneil, Messers. J. Macliver, Neil Bell, W. Campbell, Secretary; and A. N. Currie. Mr. Reid chose as his subject, "Incidents in the History of Islay," and his masterly exposition of the island's history indicated expert acquaintance with the salient features which gave it so unique a colouring. Summarizing the ancients history of Islay, he said probably no Island in the Western Hebridean chain had been so much fought for or has changed hand so often as the "Queen of the Hebrides." The Campbell's of Calder owned Islay for over a hundred years, when owing to money difficulties they sold it to the Shawfield Campbells in 1726. It was in their possession till 1847, when it was bought by James Morrison, who sold the Kildalton portion to John Ramsay, and the Dunlossit portion to Kirkman Finlay. The Campbells regime was productive, of higher administrative effort. Mr. Reid gave excerpts from the minutes of the local Parliament of Islay which subsisted till 1843. The legislative activities of the Parliament were manifold. In 1784 a weekly market was established in Bowmore; in 1792 there were unlawful meetings of weavers for the purpose of shortening the Islay ell, the English yard, and raising prices; in 1796 there was a formal approval of the steps taken by the legislature to avoid threatened famine, and , it is interesting to note that in 1801 a sum of 10 pounds was stented for the Royal Infirmary. An Amusing observation is that in 1804 Bowmore was much annoyed by a destructive crowd of pigs running up and down the streets; in 1825 Portnahaven Lighthouse was built; in 1750 the population of Islay was 5344, it rose to 14,991 in 1831; in 1901 the population was 6867. The earliest mail service was via Port Askaig and Jura to Inveraray. The first mention of a packet is in 1764. In 1794 the cabin fore was raised 2-6 and strange to relate, the master was to be fines 10s for each steerage passenger allowed into the cabin. The first steamboat service was established in 1824. About 1846 a bi-weekly service started at Ramsay and others, when the "Modern Athens" was put on. David Hutchinson took over the service, as Ramsay, when he entered Parliament could not contract for the mails, David MacBrayne followed Hutchinson 1879, when the Government grant was 800 pounds. Regarding Islay churches, one of the first references is to the dedication of Kildalton Church to St. Nathalan in 678; in 1349 the Pope wrote to John MacDonald, Lord of Isle, announcing confirmation of William to the Sea of Sundreys. In 1730 the Estimated cost of Lagavalin Church was 100 pound. In 1788, Kilnaughton Church coffins were exposed owing to the sea washing away sand. In 1767 the picturesque round church of Bowmore was built by Daniel Campbell. Mr. Reid then read items of interest in regard to education of Islay. The Parliament always stented itself heavily in regard to the advancement of knowledge in the island, and was not in vain, as in the last two hundred years Islaymen have been distinguishing themselves and adding lustre to the fame of their loved isle in every corner of the world. Mr. Reid then read items of interest with close attention and at the conclusion the vote of thanks was heartily given him. In the course of the evening, songs were rendered by Messrs. Brown and Handyside (English) and the Gaelic part of the programme was excellently sustained by Miss Mary Macgiven and Miss A. J. MacMillan, N. A. Mr. James Mcliver, in a felicitous manner, moved a vote of thanks to the singers who had so amply contributed to the success of the evening. John C. MacARTHUR, Duluth, Minnesota, U. S. A.

Hello Sue Could there possibly have been another nickname for Mary? I am searching for my mothers great grandmother Mary Gray from Northern Ireland, her daughter married a fellow from Wigtownshire; it is like looking for a needle in a haystack! ann claggett delta ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue V" <genealgal2@execulink.com> > Forwarded from the Wigtownshire list - > > Forename Variants > Variations in forenames are very common in the records. The name by which > a > person was born or christened, might look very different when they married > or died. For example, Elizabeth might be known and/or recorded as > Elisabeth, > Eliza, Betty, Betsy, Beth, Bessie, Elspeth, Elsie, to name but a few. Some > of the influences brought to bear on Scottish forenames are indicated > below. > > Abbreviations, Diminutives, Nicknames/pet names > Records are full of abbreviated forms of some forenames, e.g. William > might > be recorded as Will, Wm. or Willm., Charles as Chas., Margaret as Margt. > or > Mgt., James as Jas., Alexander as Alexr., and so on. > Also, diminutives, nicknames and pet names, if habitually in use, might be > recorded instead of the proper name, e.g. Euphan/Eupham/Effy for Euphemia, > Katie/Kate/Kath/Kathy for Katherine, Jamie/Jimmy/Jim for James, > Maggie/Meg/Peggy for Margaret, Alec/Alex/Sandy/Eck for Alexander, Dod for > George. > > This is particularly prevalent in the Old Parish Register records, and > probably more so in smaller parishes, where the person recording the > information, usually the session clerk or the minister, would know the > families in the area. > > Anglicising forenames > It was very common for registrars in Gaelic-speaking areas of the > Highlands > and Western Isles to anglicise common Gaelic forenames, for instance > recording Morag as Mary, Iain as John and Hamish as James. Gaelic-speaking > families themselves, who migrated to urban areas, may also have anglicised > their names. > > Ambiguous names > Names that, today, we would normally associate with boys were occasionally > (mainly in the North of Scotland) given to girls and vice versa, for > example, Nicholas. Christian, viewed as a boy's name today, was quite a > common girl's name in Scotland, and used as an alternative to Christina. > > Sometimes during indexing of the Old Parish Registers, it was unclear from > the name whether the child was male or female, particularly if the entry > recorded "child of" instead of "son of" or "daughter of". Further > confusion > would arise if the name had been abbreviated and that abbreviated form > could > apply equally to a boy or a girl, e.g. Willm. might be William or > Williamina. In such cases, a "U" for unstated was entered in the index to > ensure that the wrong sex was not attributed. These "U" values are > included > in all Male, Female or Both Sex searches. > > Many boys' names were transformed into girls' names by adding "ina", e.g. > Thomasina, Georgina, Hughina, Jamesina, Williamina. These names might be > abbreviated to Ina in later life. Williamina might become Mina. > > Interchangeable names > Some names are completely interchangeable e.g. Agnes and Nancy, Donald and > Daniel. Jane could be recorded as Jean, Jessie or Janet. > > Early spellings may vary from later ones , e.g. Jannet, Jhonet, Jonat, > Jonnet or Jonet instead of Janet, Margrat or Margret for Margaret, Henrie > for Henry, Andro or Androw for Andrew, Alisoun, Alesoune, Alisone for > Alison. > > Traditional naming patterns > Scots often named children by following a simple set of rules: > > 1st son named after father's father > 2nd son named after mother's father > 3rd son named after father > 1st daughter named after mother's mother > 2nd daughter named after father's mother > 3rd daughter named after mother > > Although this was not universally applied (some families adhered strictly, > others "dabbled" and still others ignored it), it can still be helpful in > determining the correct entry when confronting the relative lack of > information in the OPR's. It can also give rise to great confusion when > eight children of the same family in a small parish name their offspring > according to convention! The use of traditional naming patterns gradually > declined during the 19th century. > > The application of naming conventions and the general desire to ensure > that > a family forename perpetuated through the generations, sometimes led to > duplication of forenames within a family. For example, where a family > wished > to adhere strictly to the traditional naming pattern, and both > grandfathers > bore the same forename, that name might be given to more than child. If a > child died young, parents might name a later child after the dead sibling. > In unfortunate cases, the name may have been used more than once. > > Sometimes there appears to be no rhyme or reason to the naming: a child > might be named after the minister, an employer, an influential personage > in > the community or a close friend, who might appear as a witness to the > birth. > Witnesses are not always given in OPR entries, but where they are, > sometimes > (as in Dundee) you will find their relationship to child, if any, noted, > e.g. "Charles Jobson, grandfather", "Mrs Janet Speid, father's mother". > > Middle names > The existence of a middle name can be extremely helpful to the family > historian. Parents might use the mother or a grandmother's maiden name as > a > child's middle name. However, do not assume that this name will appear in > all subsequent records pertaining to that child. Consider also the > possibility that a person might use his/her middle name as the first name > in > later life and be recorded as such.

Hi Lorne and Lynne, It's great to know you both have all of our interests at heart. Mr. Reids presentation certainly is interesting. Cheerio Helen Campbell Blair (currently enjoying Florida - 80+ degrees here near Sarasota today and hopefully for the next few weeks :-) ). > Jope Loughead asked if I thought the following might be of interest to the > List members. Since I thought it most likely, I am sending it on! > Regards, > Lynne Kemp. > > > The Collingwood Enterprise October 5, 1922 p1c1 > > GLASGOW ISLAY ASSOCIATION AT DULUTH >

This is an article from The Collingwood Enterprise, Collingwood, Simcoe Co, ON, October 5, 1922. History: Incidents on the History of Islay by Mr. Peter REID, formerly factor on Kildalton, Islay. P1c1. Thought it might be of interest to the list. Lorne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jopie Loughead" <jopiel@sympatico.ca> To: "J Lorne Campbell" <jlorne.campbell@sympatico.ca>; <CAN-ONT-SIMCOE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > GLASGOW ISLAY ASSOCIATION AT DULUTH > > SOME HISTORIC EVENTS > > (Published by request) > > The syllabus of the Glasgow Islay Association concluded with a lecture by > Mr. Peter Reid, formerly a factor on Kildalton, Islay. Among those > present, were Mr. J. Mactaggart, president: Captain Gilbert Macneil, > Messers. J. Macliver, Neil Bell, W. Campbell, Secretary; and A. N. Currie. > > Mr. Reid chose as his subject, "Incidents in the History of Islay," and > his masterly exposition of the island's history indicated expert > acquaintance with the salient features which gave it so unique a > colouring. Summarizing the ancients history of Islay, he said probably no > Island in the Western Hebridean chain had been so much fought for or has > changed hand so often as the "Queen of the Hebrides." The Campbell's of > Calder owned Islay for over a hundred years, when owing to money > difficulties they sold it to the Shawfield Campbells in 1726. It was in > their possession till 1847, when it was bought by James Morrison, who sold > the Kildalton portion to John Ramsay, and the Dunlossit portion to Kirkman > Finlay. The Campbells regime was productive, of higher administrative > effort. Mr. Reid gave excerpts from the minutes of the local Parliament of > Islay which subsisted till 1843. The legislative activities of the > Parliament were manifold. In 1784 a weekly market was established in > Bowmore; in 1792 there were unlawful meetings of weavers for the purpose > of shortening the Islay ell, the English yard, and raising prices; in 1796 > there was a formal approval of the steps taken by the legislature to avoid > threatened famine, and , it is interesting to note that in 1801 a sum of > 10 pounds was stented for the Royal Infirmary. > > An Amusing observation is that in 1804 Bowmore was much annoyed by a > destructive crowd of pigs running up and down the streets; in 1825 > Portnahaven Lighthouse was built; in 1750 the population of Islay was > 5344, it rose to 14,991 in 1831; in 1901 the population was 6867. The > earliest mail service was via Port Askaig and Jura to Inveraray. The first > mention of a packet is in 1764. In 1794 the cabin fore was raised 2-6 and > strange to relate, the master was to be fines 10s for each steerage > passenger allowed into the cabin. > > The first steamboat service was established in 1824. About 1846 a > bi-weekly service started at Ramsay and others, when the "Modern Athens" > was put on. David Hutchinson took over the service, as Ramsay, when he > entered Parliament could not contract for the mails, David MacBrayne > followed Hutchinson 1879, when the Government grant was 800 pounds. > Regarding Islay churches, one of the first references is to the dedication > of Kildalton Church to St. Nathalan in 678; in 1349 the Pope wrote to John > MacDonald, Lord of Isle, announcing confirmation of William to the Sea of > Sundreys. In 1730 the Estimated cost of Lagavalin Church was 100 pound. In > 1788, Kilnaughton Church coffins were exposed owing to the sea washing > away sand. In 1767 the picturesque round church of Bowmore was built by > Daniel Campbell. > > Mr. Reid then read items of interest in regard to education of Islay. The > Parliament always stented itself heavily in regard to the advancement of > knowledge in the island, and was not in vain, as in the last two hundred > years Islaymen have been distinguishing themselves and adding lustre to > the fame of their loved isle in every corner of the world. > > Mr. Reid then read items of interest with close attention and at the > conclusion the vote of thanks was heartily given him. In the course of the > evening, songs were rendered by Messrs. Brown and Handyside (English) and > the Gaelic part of the programme was excellently sustained by Miss Mary > Macgiven and Miss A. J. MacMillan, N. A. Mr. James Mcliver, in a > felicitous manner, moved a vote of thanks to the singers who had so amply > contributed to the success of the evening. > > John C. MacARTHUR, Duluth, Minnesota, U. S. A.

I am looking for a Catherine Morrison born 12 January 1832 or 1841. We know she gave her birth date to children in Canada as both years. We first had her as coming from The Isle of Skye, but now believe she is from Islay. If anyone can help , we would love to hear from you . Alan Hepburn researching Buchanan Hepburn Morrison Blank

I sent this response to Sue Visser request for comments on common law marriages in Scotland. She kindly thought that it might be of interest to the list in general so I am reposting it. Best wishes James >>> My understanding is that common law marriages were recognised in Scotland, especially in the 19th century. I have a dissertation on the subject from another list: "By definition an Irregular marriage leaves no records. In brief, there are three ways in which people could be irregularly married. 1 a promise to marry followed by sexual intercourse was a valid marriage in Scots Law. (Subsequente copula), Sure honey, I'll marry you, now lets get on with it. 2. a declaration before witnesses. (per verba de praesenti). "Can we have a double bedded room". "You two married?" "Yes". They are. 3. By habit and repute. Everyone in the community think that they are and they pass themselves off as being married. An Irregular marriage can however be registered. I will write at length about that topic in #2. I will also write about marriage in general in #3. I think, I should risk going off topic on a short review of Marriage in Scotland. There are three alternative views of marriage. 1. One can take the view of Roman law, and decide that mutual consent constituted marriage. 2. One could take a tribal notion and consider that marriage consisted of handing over the bride by her father 3. One could take the view that the matter of marriage was that sexual intercourse was the decisive factor. While these would seem to be clear alternatives, in practice there is a mixture of more than one of these ideas. For example one of the requirements for a valid marriage in the view of the Roman Church is that the marriage has been consummated. Because Scottish law is founded upon Roman Law there is no question of any giving by the parent in the service. A Scottish wedding does not have the words, "Who gives this woman to be married to this man". A Bride may come up the aisle on her Father's arm, but he merely leaves her beside the Groom. Scottish law has never demanded parental permission for a marriage Incidentally a religious wedding in Scotland may be celebrated anywhere. The core of the wedding is "As a seal of the vows you are about to make take each other by the right hand" The vows - which have do not include a promise to obey are then exchanged. The earliest Scottish reformed form (Knox 1556) goes "that you have takyn and are now content to haue". In Scotland therefore consent is the key. The Kirk seemed to believe in consent and publicity , though it was estimated by 19th Century commentators that at least a third of 18th Century Scottish marriages were irregular. Prior to 1 July 1940 a promise to marry followed by sexual intercourse was a valid marriage in Scots Law. (Subsequente copula), as was a declaration before witnesses. (per verba de praesenti). Perhaps the best comment on the situation of marriages in Scotland was made by Lord Hailes in 1772. "All the European nations, Scotland excepted, have departed from the more ancient common law, and have required the interposition either of Church or of State to validate a marriage. Thus what was the law of all Europe, while Europe was barbarous, is now the law of Scotland only, when Europe has become civilized". Those who are interested in the topic of marriage can address themselves to the report of the Royal Commission on the topic which was set up in 1865. The first thing you have to remember was that I was talking about Irregular marriages, and the theory behind the Scottish law of marriages. However, if you read posts #1 and #2, you will see that irregular marriages were to use a term from Roman Catholic moral philosophy, deficient. They therefore were - in the eyes of the Church - not completely right. We therefore are now dealing with a completely different area, and that is the legitimacy of children. The Church - under the guise of being a moral policeman wished to regulate the fecundity of the population. The reason was simple, an unsupported mother and child was a burden on the Poors fund. There was also the theological understanding about the relationship between Scotland and God which was expressed in the Covenants, and even after they were no longer generally accepted had some emotional relevance to the fact that it was assumed that unless people had made some other arrangements for the care of their souls that they were Church of Scotland, and therefore under the discipline of the Kirk Session. The OPRs are only part of the story. Often for the full story, it is necessary to look up the Kirk Session minutes to see the background. This is a general article and I am not attempting to cover everything, but it will give you some idea of how things worked. Young Jeanie is in the Family way. After the baby is born she is summonsed to appear before the Kirk Session, which asks her who the Father is. Of course she can tell them to go to Hell; its none of their business. However she may be thrown out by her parents, and will be dependant upon the Parish for Charity. Not a clever move. She says a name. He is hauled in to the Kirk Session. If he admits it, then they may well be encouraged to get married. They will however be sentenced to appear as penitents in Church for so many Sundays. They are guilty of fornication. What however if he is the laird's son, and she a maid in the house. You can be damn sure that they will not get married, and he may well go off on his travels. The child will stay illegitimate. Let us say that the relationship is denied, and he has the reputation of coming from a good, but poor family, while her family are notorious in the district. He might be found not proven. The child remains illegitimate But let us say that the young buck is already married. Then they are a pair of Adulterers, who deserve death (Which of course doesn't happen and is dubious if it ever did). They will spend longer on the Penitents stool. The child will be illegitimate. All right, they are crafty, and they get married before the child is born. Well, the Kirk Session can count up to nine just like the rest of us. They have been guilty of Premarital fornication, and will go to the stool. Or, like Mr Robert Burns - with friends, they can be charged with contracting an irregular marriage, and he pays a fine into the poors box, and they get married. Now, when the baptism of the child is noted, that child is illegitimate, however marriage subsequently legitimates. Any way who cares? legitimacy only really matters if there is something to inherit. If I am a farm servant who moved every 6 months I have nothing to have inherited by my children. I may not bother getting married at all. I want the Children baptised? Well the 1714 Act Anent Baptism covers that by supplying others to present the child." Supplied by; Edward Andrews St. Nicholas Buccleuch Parish Church Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland Visit our Web site http://www.btinternet.com/~stnicholas.buccleuch/index.htm

Hi all A couple of weeks ago, in fun (put it down to the winter blahs!) I asked a hypothetical question: "The couple had a good marriage - but it was a confirmed common law union. They lived together for 42 years. Are their children illegitimate?" I had no specific family in mind but wondered how the list would consider these circumstances. There were dozens of responses, some quite detailed. Unfortunately I didn't state a time frame or specific country but nonetheless, the responses were quite interesting. A couple were lengthy and one in particular very informative and I've asked its writer to forward it to the list. Interestingly enough less than 25% stated firmly that the children were illegitimate without question - that means that 75% were undecided. Thank you to all who shared their comments and insight. A couple of you have really off beat humour - thanks for making me laugh too. What started out as a fun question turned into one requiring deep thought. I'm sure a huge book could be written on this topic so it will be somewhat inadequate to try to cover it all in this format but I'll try to cover part of it - no doubt missing far too much too. There are 2 ways to consider illegitimacy - a child born without any marriage of any kind and a child born within a union that is not recognized as traditional marriage and therefore deemed illegal. First consider the child born without any marriage...in the OPRs, this child is indicated as "illegitimate" with the mother noted but no father indicated. In Ted Larson's transcriptions of Islay births for the period to 1855, there were 418 children listed without fathers. What was life like for these children - and for their mothers? I sadly noted the number of illegitimate children who died in infancy when examining Ted's death transcriptions (see posts in Sept and Oct 2002) - some had reasons of death like scarletina noted and other had "unknown" as the reason of death but I do wonder if these children were "allowed" to die. The second kind of illegitimate child - one born within a union not recognized as a legal marriage....first we need to know the various kinds of marriages that have been in Scotland. (Note: Art Hunter posted a detailed email on marriage Scottish law Oct 5, 2000 that is definitely worth re-reading and I have 'lifted' some of the content to include here) 1) Taken from "Life in Scotland A Hundred Years Ago" by James Murray, as reflected in the Old Statistical Accounts: "A fair was held annually...at that place it was the custom of the unmarried persons of both sexes to choose a companion according to their liking, with whom they were to live till that time, next year. This was called 'hand fasting', or hand in fist. If they were pleased with each other at that time, then they continued together in life; if not, they separated and were free to make another choice. The fruit of this connection, if any, was always attached to the disaffected person". 2) Marriage by banns: banns were called three consecutive Sundays at Church. After the third calling, without ceremony necessary, they were consider married (Paul Smart, Bishop, LDS Utah, conference speaker 1995). As we see in the OPRs, if the bride and groom were from different parishes, the bans were called in each of their parishes. 3) Only wealthier people or people of consequence/standing were married by license (Paul Smart, 1995). 4) Marriage of Declaration: both parties declared that they accepted one another as husband and wife (probably similar to #1) 5) Marriage by Habit and Repute - if 2 persons in respect of whom there is no legal impediment to marriage, live together and behave towards each other in public as though they are husband and wife, then it can be held that that a marriage has been established. 6) Runaway or 'Gretna Green' marriages. Involved English participants crossing over to Scotland where marriage laws were much more lax and isn't a focus for Islay marriages. 7) undocumented marriages. I recall a discussion with list members (live or online I cannot remember - Toni Sinclair - do you remember?) that there were times when fees were charged by the clerics to document a marriage (or birth or death) in the parish records. How often did this happen....the banns were read but the fees were beyond their means so while they were legally married, it was not documented. The children born to this union would be known as legitimate at that time, but the researcher many generations ahead might consider the children illegitimate because the marriage documentation isn't found. So now we consider the children born to the above various kinds of unions. Are they illegitimate? According to Webster's Dictionary, marriage means 1) the state of being married; 2) the mutual relation of husband and wife; 3) the institution whereby men and women are joined in a special kind of social and legal dependence for the purpose of founding and maintaining a family. According to the same dictionary, illegitimate means: 1) not recognized as lawful offspring; 2) born of parents not married to each other. The answer to my question about illegitimacy is as individual as how each of us interprets "marriage". Personally I don't believe there is a black-and-white, one-size-fits-all answer. Cheerio Sue Visser

Sorry marriage date is 28th September 1846 On 19 Jan 2006, at 19:18, Dona Findlay wrote: > Hi List, > > I have been looking at old archives to see if I can find a > connection to certain people from my family tree and came across > an entry on the 16th September 1999 sent by Robyn Young who was > enquiring about descendents of Donald McDonald and Marion Clark. I > have e-mailed the address attached (robynyoung@mpx.com.au )but it > has been returned with the message no such user.If anyone knows the > current e-mail address for Robyn Young can they please contact me > off line. > > Just in case anyone has a connection I have attached my message to > Robyn. > > I believe my family of McDonalds are related to your's. My Great > Great Grandfather was Archibald born 1823, the first child of > Donald McDonald and Marion Clark. He married Meran Johnstone at > Kildalton on the 258 September 1846 and they had three children. > Donald born 1847 (my Great grandfather), Mary born 1849, and > Archibald born1850. > The Free Church records of Port Ellen show an entry on the twelfth > of January 1847 that reads "Archibald McDonald and Mary Johnstone > compeared before the Session and confessed being guilty of the sin > of antenuptial fornication After an address by the Moderator( the > elders being previously conversing with them) they were freed from > the scandal of their sin. The census of 1851 shows that Meran was a > grocer, now a widow but to date I can find no trace of her death > although she was still alive in 1868 when my Great Grandfather > Donald married Jessie Macarthur of KIlmeny in Glasgow. > > Please contact me off line if you have a connection as I have quite > a large family tree that may interest you. > > Dona Findlay > > > > > ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== > Here are some links related to the Isle of Islay: http:// > homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/links.htm >

Hi List, I have been looking at old archives to see if I can find a connection to certain people from my family tree and came across an entry on the 16th September 1999 sent by Robyn Young who was enquiring about descendents of Donald McDonald and Marion Clark. I have e-mailed the address attached (robynyoung@mpx.com.au )but it has been returned with the message no such user.If anyone knows the current e-mail address for Robyn Young can they please contact me off line. Just in case anyone has a connection I have attached my message to Robyn. I believe my family of McDonalds are related to your's. My Great Great Grandfather was Archibald born 1823, the first child of Donald McDonald and Marion Clark. He married Meran Johnstone at Kildalton on the 258 September 1846 and they had three children. Donald born 1847 (my Great grandfather), Mary born 1849, and Archibald born1850. The Free Church records of Port Ellen show an entry on the twelfth of January 1847 that reads "Archibald McDonald and Mary Johnstone compeared before the Session and confessed being guilty of the sin of antenuptial fornication After an address by the Moderator( the elders being previously conversing with them) they were freed from the scandal of their sin. The census of 1851 shows that Meran was a grocer, now a widow but to date I can find no trace of her death although she was still alive in 1868 when my Great Grandfather Donald married Jessie Macarthur of KIlmeny in Glasgow. Please contact me off line if you have a connection as I have quite a large family tree that may interest you. Dona Findlay

Heather -In answer to your question- Janet McDougald who married John McLean had a brother Allan [1834-1910] He married Mary MacEwen [1854-1901]. Their father -also Allan, had a brother Alexander--but the only information I have for him was his baptism in 1783--and I am still looking for more definite information about him . Marion

This is a reliable place to purchase Scottish source material http://globalgenealogy.com/countries/scotland/index.htm They're located in Milton, Ontario. When you check out the website, go to the bottom of the page and click on "A chronology of Scotland" - it's interesting. Cheerio Sue

oops. Hit the wrong button. Here's the website. http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CAN/CAN-ONT-SIMCOE.html A search of the web site turned us this marriage registration where Archie McAllister was a witness: 017539-05 (Simcoe Co.) John McALLISTER, 36, gardener, Nottawasaga, Collingwood, s/o D. McALLISTER and Catharine CARMICHAEL married Ann E. HENDERSON, 36, Mulmer, Collingwood, d/o Thos. HENDERSON and Mary A. BRADLEY, wtn., Archie McALLISTER & Thos. HENDERSON both of Collingwood on June 28, 1905 at Collingwood. Lorne ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Lorne Campbell" <jlorne.campbell@sympatico.ca> To: <SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 >I beling to the Simcoe County Roots mailing list. The followng link gives >all the details. > > Jopie Loughead has been inputting BMD data frem the newspaper for ever it > seems. It looks like she is only up to 1922 so it may be a while before > she transribes the year 1930. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Evelyn Milne" <buela8@shaw.ca> > To: <SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:22 PM > Subject: RE: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > > >> Lorne, how do you access the Collingwood Enterprise paper? I have an >> uncle >> who died there, Archie McAllister somewhere around 1930. >> >> Evelyn >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: J Lorne Campbell [mailto:jlorne.campbell@sympatico.ca] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:49 PM >> To: SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 >> >> The death notice of another Islay native in The Collingwood Enterprise >> newspaper. >> Lorne >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jopie Loughead" <jopiel@sympatico.ca> >> To: <CAN-ONT-SIMCOE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:04 PM >> Subject: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 >> >> >>> The Collingwood Enterprise, August 10, 1922 >>> Died: On Sunday, Duncan McARTHUR, aged 84 years. Born Islay, Scotland >>> and >>> came to Canada at age 20. He settled in Nottawasaga Township and married >>> Flora MacGILLIVRAY. Buried West Church Cemetery. P1c4 >>> >>> (Cemetery has: Duncan MacARTHUR, 1841 - 1922) >>> >>> ==== CAN-ONT-SIMCOE Mailing List ==== >>> A new way as of June 28, 2005 to find family members >>> http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/> >> >> >> ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== >> Click on this link for some wonderful stories, and general information >> about >> Islay: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/misc.htm >> >> >> >> ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== >> Click on this link for information on others researching the same >> families as you >> HTTP://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~tlarson/researchers/ >

I beling to the Simcoe County Roots mailing list. The followng link gives all the details. Jopie Loughead has been inputting BMD data frem the newspaper for ever it seems. It looks like she is only up to 1922 so it may be a while before she transribes the year 1930. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evelyn Milne" <buela8@shaw.ca> To: <SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:22 PM Subject: RE: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > Lorne, how do you access the Collingwood Enterprise paper? I have an > uncle > who died there, Archie McAllister somewhere around 1930. > > Evelyn > > -----Original Message----- > From: J Lorne Campbell [mailto:jlorne.campbell@sympatico.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:49 PM > To: SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > > The death notice of another Islay native in The Collingwood Enterprise > newspaper. > Lorne > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jopie Loughead" <jopiel@sympatico.ca> > To: <CAN-ONT-SIMCOE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:04 PM > Subject: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > > >> The Collingwood Enterprise, August 10, 1922 >> Died: On Sunday, Duncan McARTHUR, aged 84 years. Born Islay, Scotland and >> came to Canada at age 20. He settled in Nottawasaga Township and married >> Flora MacGILLIVRAY. Buried West Church Cemetery. P1c4 >> >> (Cemetery has: Duncan MacARTHUR, 1841 - 1922) >> >> ==== CAN-ONT-SIMCOE Mailing List ==== >> A new way as of June 28, 2005 to find family members >> http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/> > > > ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== > Click on this link for some wonderful stories, and general information > about > Islay: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/misc.htm > > > > ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== > Click on this link for information on others researching the same families > as you HTTP://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~tlarson/researchers/

Hello Listers I am looking for any information on Isabella McLean who was married to Finlay Ferguson of Kilchoman she was not metioned in the 1841 census. Finlay and three kids mentioned in the census Donald, Rachel and Catherine Rachel was my gggrandmother. Andy Duffy

Lorne, how do you access the Collingwood Enterprise paper? I have an uncle who died there, Archie McAllister somewhere around 1930. Evelyn -----Original Message----- From: J Lorne Campbell [mailto:jlorne.campbell@sympatico.ca] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:49 PM To: SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 The death notice of another Islay native in The Collingwood Enterprise newspaper. Lorne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jopie Loughead" <jopiel@sympatico.ca> To: <CAN-ONT-SIMCOE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 > The Collingwood Enterprise, August 10, 1922 > Died: On Sunday, Duncan McARTHUR, aged 84 years. Born Islay, Scotland and > came to Canada at age 20. He settled in Nottawasaga Township and married > Flora MacGILLIVRAY. Buried West Church Cemetery. P1c4 > > (Cemetery has: Duncan MacARTHUR, 1841 - 1922) > > ==== CAN-ONT-SIMCOE Mailing List ==== > A new way as of June 28, 2005 to find family members > http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/> ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== Click on this link for some wonderful stories, and general information about Islay: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/misc.htm

To quote W.C. Fields: "No one who hates dogs and children can be all bad" -----Original Message----- From: Dixie Cutler [mailto:cutlerd@shaw.ca] Sent: January 17, 2006 10:20 PM To: SCT-ISLAY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SCT-ISLAY] Fw: [C-O-S] E. M. 1922 Gee, sounds like a real fun guy. > Here are the notes I have on Duncan McArthur: > > According to his grandson, Archie Carmichael, son of his daughter, > Catherine Isabella (1883 - 1961), he was dour, had no time for children, > in fact little time for adults. > > > Census of 1881 in Nottawasaga Twp: > Dunca MCARTHER M Male Scottish 38 Scotland > Farmer Presbyterian > Flora MCARTHER M Female Scottish 35 Scotland > Presbyterian > John Alr. MCARTHER Male Scottish 1 O > <Ontario> Presbyterian > > In 1901 McArthur was in Nottawasaga Twp., His native language was > English. He came to Canada in 1864. (e - 12 p. 1): > 47 9 McArthur Duncan M Head M Nov 15 1843 > 58 Scotland > 48 9 McArthur Flora F Wife M Jul 15 > 1843 58 Scotland > 49 9 McArthur John M Son S Sep 28 > 1880 21 ON > 50 9 McArthur Bella F Dau S Oct 19 > 1883 18 ON > McArthur Douglas M Son S Sep 28 > 1885 16 ON rural > > Allan Currie > >> > > > > ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== > FOR QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS MAILING LIST - HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE - HOW TO CHANGE > YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS, ETC, ETC...: > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/maillist.htm > ==== SCT-ISLAY Mailing List ==== Click on this link for some wonderful stories, and general information about Islay: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~steve/islay/misc.htm

Hi Marion, We spoke about the Fullarton MacDougall's last year. I am re-organizing my written notes onto computor and cannot understand my own writing. Can you verify the following for me regarding your Allan & Isabella of Fullarton Twp. Is Janet MacDougall born Islay Aug 1821-Nov 25 1911 and her spouse John McLean born Jura June 1808-Jan 3 1900, child Janet Mclean born Hibbert Twp Aug 1 1856-Apr 2 1937 spouse John H Melville, a sister or cousin to Allan?? From rainy Stratford, Heather _________________________________________________________________ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.